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As I said earlier, Model 21's often had GREAT wood.....but that doesn't make up for the squared off, crude action.
I hate change, it's never for the better.... Grumpy Old Men The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I've owned Italian (Piotti), Spanish (Garbi) and classic American (Parker) doubles and they're pretty sleek and nice. The 21 may not be as sleek as those, but at least in 20 Ga., it's no slouch. The 12 Ga. guns are bigger and heavier. Some of those others have gone down the road, but I still have this one (and a Garbi sidelock 28 ga.). This 21 fits me perfectly and it's a keeper.
DF
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While no ones definition of "sleek" or "fancy"--they aren't without charm. This one is my 12 ga. skeet gun. With a factory straight stock and 28" barrels, it's not the most dynamic double, but neither does it handle like the proverbial "pig on a shovel." Model 21's suffer from a high Moment of Inertia (MOI) when measured on one of Don Amos' mechanisms, compared to many of their American counterparts and all but the pigeon and heavy fowler versions of the English guns. It's hard to find an English pigeon gun over 7.5 pounds and it's hard to find a Model 21 Trap, Skeet or Duck under 7.75 lbs. When compared to English game guns, the differences are striking: MOI of 2.02 for Model 21 Duck compared to 1.67 for a Purdey SLE. Unfortunately the Model 21 had a relatively small production history (<35,000 IIRC) and many had 26" barrels in large bore size/weights which combine to make for poor MOI. Long barreled 20 & 16 ga (which were built on the 20 ga. frame) measure out to have pretty good MOI (1.06 for 28" 20 ga. that weighs 6 1/4 lbs.) Those measurements are close to being considered "sleek"!
Last edited by gmoats; 06/07/11.
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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Joined: Nov 2010
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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My Garbi 28 ga. is quicker than my 20 ga. M-21, but not by a whole bunch. The 21 Skeet handles pretty well. I think fit and the "chemistry" one has with a gun is important. In that realm, the 21 is a strong contender...
DF
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Anybody who doesn't want theirs, send it to me. They're American guns and are meant to be toted and shot, not like English guns which are meant to be handed to the Gun and swung on driven game.
How many 21s have you seen go off face?
Not many problems you can't fix With a 1911 and a 30-06
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I sure enjoy owning my 20 gauge Springfield by Stevens - it is a nice little utilitarian but solidly built shotgun, mid-1940's vintage: But, it is not in the same class as even an early, mid-30's M21. This version has the stock which gave it the clubby reputation, but it swings well for me and stands heads and shoulders above the Stevens. Additionally it is as tight today as it ever was and I am the third owner of the gun. Well built and very good quality to boot - I'll take all that Gene passes on (fat chance huh?)
One of the sanest, surest, and most generous joys of life comes from being happy over the good fortune of others. Archibald Rutledge
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I have a real soft spot for the model 21. I am not good enough at the shotgunning sports to really tell it doesnt swing as well or it doesnt have the right MOI..When I hold a 21 it feels like I am holding one of the best things America could make. I miss my share of skeet, or a squirrel every now and then, but I figure I would have missed also with a 100k H&H. Here is my straight grip 1941 custom 12ga. in skeet/skeet.
Last edited by Cartod; 06/08/11.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Nice, WV, notwithstanding...
DF
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Campfire Outfitter
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Cartod that is a very fine looking M21 right there. Perfect grouse gun.
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.
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... I am not good enough at the shotgunning sports to really tell it doesnt swing as well or it doesnt have the right MOI... ...Cartod, I apologize for giving the impression that there's a "right" or "wrong" MOI. I was just making the point (poorly) that swing effort is objective and measurable and typical Model 21's weren't configured to have especially low swing efforts---that doesn't mean that it's not "right" or feel perfect for anybody in particular---it just helps to explain some of the subjective assessments that the Model 21 has traditionally been stuck with. BTW, you have a beautiful Model 21--something about a straight grip on them that really is appealing.
The blindness from subjectivity is indistinguishable from the darkness of ignorance.
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Thank you gmoats, No appologies,,,It still wont make me a better shot...;) Here is my 1934 20 gauge 21 trap grade, shown with a 1948 englished stocked M12 Trap grade.
Last edited by Cartod; 06/09/11.
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I grew up reading O'Conner. I hit the ripe age of 14 in '51. I grew up on a farm in the rolling plains of central west Texas. Loved guns. My dream gun was a Winchester 21. You could order a field grade from the Ward's catalog for $325. I had handled the live models in our annual trek to Ft. Worth to sell cattle. I had my eye on the 16 ga. I had pestered Dad for some time about buying one. We finally made a deal involving several projects and a lot of goals, both on and off the farm. Good harvests, reasonable commodity prices, and meeting or exceeding all the projects/goals brought this close to a reality in '52. Dad said the 21 was a "GO." Stepping back just a bit, one could get a drivers license in Texas (population under 6 million at the time) at 14 under certain conditions. At 15, I was beginning to eye a brown haired/eyed girl that lived a few miles away. When Dad said yes, I began to have second thoughts. Maybe I needed a car worse than a shotgun? To make a long story short, Dad was an easy mark for the second car deal. At my age and wanting to go and do, plus the utility of a second vehicle around the farm, Dad readily swapped my longed for 21 purchase for a shared interest in a used vehicle. Story ending: A few years later I married the girl, and 55 years later in a couple of weeks, I still have her. My only regret is that I never had a 21! Nice shotguns, yes-21, no. I may have made the better deal after all. The mother of my three children is still fairly trim, attractive, pleasant and has indulged my gun habits for lo these many years. Do not tell her that I traded a shotgun for her!!!! jt That is a great story, thank you for sharing.
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The stock finish on those older, high grade 21s is the nicest I have ever seen.
Does anyone know what type of finish was used and how they did it?
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