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Should Crossbows be included in true archery season?

Ric

No.

Why not? Compounds are used, as are recurves, longbows, and crossbows are permitted for disabled (an increasingly broad category) hunters.

They use cables and pulley like compounds and launch a broadhead-tipped shaft.

Dividing and limiting hunters and hunting is a losing proposal in the long run, making us fight amongst ourselves over "bow v. crossbow; inline v. percussion v. flintlock; turkey with rifle v. turkey with shotgun" arguments.

We ought to be celebrating any increase in hunting and/or hunting opportunities, welcoming in new members, and fighting the antis rather than engaging in these arguments within our own ranks.

Just my $0.02

The question is whether crossbows should be allowed in the true archery season.

The answer is no. It's not a true, handheld bow, as it locks at full draw. Call it anything else you want, horizontal bow or whatever, but it's not a bow in the true sense.

WRT adding numbers, I'd bet you don't have any significant amount of crossbow shooters who aren't hunting some other way, so it's splitting the same pie.

Sure, ..... but only if used by true archers. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

First, you have to define "true archery season"........does that mean strictly a wood bow (NO fiberglass or modern resins) shooting wood arrows fletched with traditional feathers.........or.....is your definition of "true archery season" stretched far enough to include modern compounds, carbon arrows, mechanical broadheads, releases, sights, stabilizers, etc???

More state wildlife departments are saying yes to crossbows every year.......why???.....because there are generally more than enough deer to go around and, more importantly, they are beginning to admit that, contrary to popular fairy tales, a crossbow and a modern compound bow have virtually the same performance......same broadhead at the same speed........same limited range......same success ratio......

Couple that with the fact that compound users can no longer argue that their 85% let-off bows shooting carbon arrows equipped with mechanical broadheads and fired by mechanical releases are more "primitive" or "traditional" than crossbows .....and, it's just a matter of time before most states will allow crossbows during archery season......

We wore this subject out back in the late winter or early spring. gator1 was in on it and it looks like he is trying to stir the pot again. A certain amount of the bow people think that they are elite and everyone else should stay out of their woods. miles

Yeah, I thought I remembered this one.

BTW - this whole debate has never made much since to me. It's akin to arguing whether in-lines ought to be allowed during ML season, or scoped rifles during the general firearms season. Either way you cut it, those are just improvements on the original design that was available when the season was originally instituted, and are just better, more efficient, more effective hunting tools.

Miles,

Not trying to stir the pot, just looking for enlightenment(sp?)

Thought hearing some unheated points of view might help my hard head.

Ric

Amen, we've got enough anti's trying to take away hunting in general, let alone type of means. This will be the first year that TN. has allowed crossbows to be used in the archery only hunt dates of the general deer season. Prior to this it was allowed only for disabled hunters. Last year it was OK'd for non-disabled hunters to use a crossbow, but only in conjuction with a multi-means type hunt, gun,muzzleloader, archery. Now this year anyone, anytime can use a crossbow. I spoke to a wildlife agent as to why the change, his response was to attempt to get more people to hunt and buy an archery permit. The TWRA has gone with the concept Many people may only gun hunt or muzzleloader hunt, this may entice them to archery hunt. Considering that TN & VA border it may change in VA in the coming years.

I would be shocked if Virginia allowed it during archery season for non disabled hunters any time soon.

You would most likely see them allowed during general firearms season first like here in Texas. Virginia does not have the huge bag limits that states like Alabama have. In most counties you see a maximum of 4 deer and the counties that are close to TN have only 1 or 2 deer bag limits.

However, Parker makes crossbows and is located in Virginia and might have the correct people in place to lobby for the weapon.

On the one hand I'm opposed to any special seasons based on weapon choice, however I can understand letting archers hunt first before the Elmer fuds come out and spook the game so that a bowhunter wouldn't have a chance at getting within range.

Technically, there really isn't any difference between a modern compound with a release and a crossbow. With an 80% let off you can hold a compound for an aweful long time. They both have the same effective range and accuracy. It kinda comes across to me as elitist to say that the crossbow folks can't hunt in the archery season, ie the "real" archers don't want to share the game resource with "those crossbow guys".

Technically there is a world of difference between a compound and a crossbow. A crossbow you shoulder like a rifle but a compound has to be drawn back, anchored at the same spot, bow had to be held verticle etc. If form is incorrect the arrow will not go where you want it to.

I think people have to rethink their position on crossbows as if any one of us was to sustain an injury debilitating enough to not be able to draw back a bow I think any one of us would be purchasing a crossbow.

I don't see modern compounds as that far away from a crossbow, IMHO. I had fired a bow in nearly 20 years, and visited a friend who let me shoot his compound. With a bow that wasn't set up for me, I could easily keep all my arrows into a lung sized target at 30 yds after a few familiarization shots.

Yes, you still have to draw and anchor, but I don't think the accuracy or effectiveness of a modern compound is any different then a crossbow. One could spook game just as effecitvely raising a crossbow as drawing a bow.

I used to be of the opiunion I would rather have a sister in a brothel than a brother who hunted with a crossbow but I have softened my opinion on crossbows.
There are guys using traditional tackle who are not committed to the practice necessary to become a good instinctive shooter. They go to traditional tackle for its simplicity and there is nothing simple about being a good instinctive shooter, it take a dedication to practice. If these guys had an ounce of respect for the animals they hunt they would carry a bow they could shoot accurately, be it a compound or crossbow.
I have never even held a crossbow but I am starting to form the opinion that better accuracy equates to less wounded animals and I don't see this as a bad thing.
Don't get me wrong, there are some incredible accurate shooters using traditional tackle but thesre hunters/shooters are prepared to do the practice to become and remain proficient in the skill of instinctive shooting.

70 pound draw weight......85% let-off bow......actual weight held when bow is at full draw.....10.5 pounds

7mmSAUM,

Well, you can start being shocked <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/hunting/crossbow.asp
At the June 23, 2005, meeting of the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries the Board approved the use of crossbows for hunting during the upcoming fall hunting season. Previously, only disabled hunters could hunt with crossbows.

Crossbows will be legal to use by any hunter during the upcoming 2005-2006 hunting season.

It seems as if one state does it, those bordering look at it also. Va. probably like Tn. wants to increase the license sales to help boost revenue for both state's game dept's.

Read an interesting thing on the Alabama Fish and Game site. Seems that in 1970 there was 1 youth hunter to 4 adults. Today it is 1 youth to 10 adults. My guess is they are all looking for any way to bring new people into the sport. If not, in a generation, the vast majority of their revenue base will be gone. Just a thought! TM

It's a sad truth, that we're losing the youngsters regarding hunting. I hate to see that here in the SE. It wasn't that many years ago in this area, that kids could get their hunter safety cert. at school.

Those days are over, most liberial school admin. would never allow such classes to be taught. There's still large crowds at the hunter safety courses in this area.

Regardless of how you feel about crossbows this notion that their legalization is going to get a lot of kids (or any new people) into hunting mystifies me. Aren't firearms just as easy or easier for a kid to use than a crossbow? Aren't kids already allowed to participate in any firearms season that is open to the general public? So why would any kid that wants to be hunting not be hunting already? It sure as hell isn't because crossbows aren't legal.

Despite the claims about getting children into hunting this is really about selling a crossbow to every gun hunter that was never able to master a bow by using the enticement of being able to hunt the early archery season with a weapon similar to a gun and far easier to master than a bow. In short, it's not about getting any new people into the sport it's just about getting some of the same old gun hunters into bow season and making a profit in the process.

You make it sound like a bad thing. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Maybe he's afraid "the same old gun hunters" will intrude on "his" private season! Sounds suspiciously like the same old selfish jargon you hear from all anti crossbow people.

Don't know about you, but I WANT gun hunters on my side.......since THEY are the majority, I certainly don't want them to petition the wildlife departments to close bowhunting because it intrudes on their season!!!

Fellas, we're all HUNTERS. We're on the same side. It's about time we realized that and started acting like it, IMHO.

Thanks, Mother Nimrod. Group hug, fellas! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've always shot a longbow or recurve, and I thought I always would. This year a shoulder injury sustained when I was in my twenties has become so debilitating that I have the choice of going to a crossbow or giving up archery. I'm 55 now and have been shooting my traditional bows since I was 9. I'd sure hate to give up the sport based on the prejudices I've harbored toward anything but the longbow and recurve. I suppose that I have to grow up a bit and admit a bow is a bow and an arrow is an arrow regardless of what they look like or how the are held, aimed, and fired.

Haggis

Been there, done that.......almost exactly the same situation right down to the shoulder injury in my 20s...........I was very reluctant to apply for a crossbow permit, but missing out on hunting during archery season was more than I could stand......

The able-bodied who choose the crossbow will never learn bowhunting and that is the shame of it all. I have been hunting out of state since the 70s where a crossbow is not permitted. I hate to think the things I would have missed.

'Tis good to know where lies the crystal ball. Pray tell, will those same fellas overlook the time-honored tradition of catfish noodling in their misspent youth, also? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

To each his own, yadda, yadda. One man's longbow is another man's tomato stake.
Btw, I shoot a recurve, but I suspect that my choice may not be every man's holy grail.

I have a strong distaste for elitists, whether they fish with a fly rod and lift their nose at those that don't, shoot a traditional bow and lift their nose at those who don't, shoot a muzzleloader and lift their nose who don't, etc.,

It seems like the elitists are so busy keeping their equipment and techniques pure, that they never have any fun, nor many friends if any at all.

Despite the fact that I'm getting back into archery by building myself a pair of longbows, and will be putting together my own cedar arrows, I have no problems with the cam and cable croud, or the crossbow crowd. It takes the same skills to get within 20 yds of game despite what weapon you use, and you can spook game just as easily by hastily raising your crossbow as you can drawing your bow. You can also fail to properly place your shot with any weapon if you don't practice.

So the only reason I see folks being opposed to crossbows is either they are selfish and don't want to have to share their special season, or they think they are vastly superior to others because of their chosen weapon and should stick their head in a big bucket of ice water to help the swelling of the head to go down.

Has anyone done any tests of compound bow vers crossbow? One of my fellow hunter safety instructors did some testing and said that he found that the crossbow does not penetrate as deeply into a target as a compound. I was not present for the test so I don�t have first hand knowledge. Are crossbows not as powerful as compounds? If so how much of a difference is there between a 130 lbs crossbow and a 60 compound? tom

I've shot my recurves and longbows most of my life, but for the last 30 odd years most of my hunting buddies who hunted with archery equipment used compounds.

The fellow who sold me my first ever crossbow (150#) last week was talking to me about arrow penetration: compound vs crossbow. I told him that Howard Hill is quoted as saying that a 30# pull longbow will shoot an arrow completely through whitetail deer. He said, "Howard who?"

I told him that the point is that the arrow is tipped with a sharp stone or piece of metal. The arrow upon hitting the animal will cut it and hopefully cause it to bleed to death.

A friend of mine came down the other day to visit and was telling me about his new 90# compound and that he had to spend a lot of time at the gym to even draw it. I've never owned a bow that pulled more than 48# and they always did a good job.

Pumpgun, It's not really about a compound or crossbow by definition, it's about projectile weight and speed.

Crossbow arrows or bolts are very short, hence light weight. They don't travel any faster then a compound bow on average. So the heavier long typical arrow will have much more driving force then the average crossbow bolt will. The draw weight is not really relevent when comparing the two. The other major factor is the draw length of the bow for both compound and cross bow. The longer the draw the longer the arrow/bolt is pushed. Cross bows have a very short thrust length compared to a compound bow.

I have also been confused by the design of the "compound" crossbow. I have one sitting right here made by browning. It's on loan to me for testing. It's pretty well accepted or understood that a conventional wheel type compound bow has less thrust for it's peak weight then a recurve of the same weight. This is do to the let off. It's not pushing with the full draw weight for some portion of it's thrust. At the point at wich the wheels roll over the thrust goes up considerablely. But then it's only a short full thrust situation. Compared to a recurve which is full thrust pretty much from the moment of release to the departure of the arrow.

The entire concept of the compound bow was to make the holding weight lower and allow a more steady hold. Why then is there a compound crossbow which does not require a holding weight at all? The entire concept is bizzare to me. If it were designed with recure type limbs the draw or thrust would occur full length, instead the 150 pound crossbow has only a short 150 pound thrust and a much reduced thrust for the remainder of the launch. Why?

Modern Cams today keep the valley very short on a compound bow. This provides the exceptional speeds we see today. The arrow is actually pushed the great majority of it's draw length. The valley on my Mathews Legacy is very narrow, maybe 2" at the most. My mid 80 Martin had a valley that was 10" or so. Lets use 30" draw @ 70lbs with a 65% let off as an example. At full draw with a wheel compond bow you may have 20" of 70 lb thrust and 10" of 46 lb thrust through the valley or let of section of the draw.

With a modern cam bow you would have 28" of 70lb draw and only 2" at 46lbs. Much faster as you can see but more stress to draw the greater distance. A crossbow with a 22" draw even at 150 lbs has such a short draw length that it requires the 150 or more to put the short light weight bolts at or near a functional speed for hunting. Combine that with the unusual compound style crossbow and you have an even shorter full thrust which is the part I'm struggling with.

Maybe somebody with a bit more knowledge can lay out the thoughts behind a compound crossbow. I just don't see the point or understand why you would want a reduced holding weight for something you don't hold? All I can figure is that the structural integrity of the crossbow itself must be able to be made with lighter weight materials since the holding weight is easier? To me that is not any bargain at all. If I don't have to hold the draw weight I want the driving force as high as possible to shoot a heavy arrow fast.

I saw a crossbow in Buckmasters magazine yesterday which had reversed limbs.

I think this a response to the thrust length you mentioned.

The only info I could find on the Internet last night said they were getting ~320 fps out of a 100 lb. draw.

Has anyone else seen these crossbows?

JJ seems like I have read something in the past that refects what you said. IIRC the reason they are called bolts rather than arrows is because they were made of metal in the begining to pentrate armor. That would certainly take care of the weight problem wouldn't it. On a side note I saw some crossbows in Italy in san marino that were huge they were 6 six feet long. They used them to shoot out slots in the wall just like the small cannon they had at the time. tom