Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa 9mm vs. Hyenna

I was surfing the other day and happened onto an old blog about a man who worked in Africa several years ago. He stated that he helped to build some oil rigs over there. He said one night, a hyenna tried to attack him and some of the local workers. One of the workers happened to have some type of 9mm pistol; which he fired at the animal. The shot went into the hyenna's spine; but didn't quite kill it.
I would like to have been there for a few minutes and have seen that shot! This story reminds me of another about a man defending himself against baboons with a beat up Winchester 30-30 that was the camp gun.

Never forget that the "best gun for the job" is the one you have with you.

Terry

I mature Female Spotted hyena will be well over 150 pounds and has an odd body shape that makes shooting it difficult to understand with the sloping back.

I've seen well over a dozen black bears shot with a 9mm and other smaller handguns when I was guiding bear hunters. The Eastern USA police all wanted to use the carry guns for the bear hunting. I had a Chicago cop use one to shoot several female impala and a duiker. Every single one ran off and had to be tracked! Some ran a very long way. Impala females are about 90 lbs if they are fat. The Duiker is no bigger then a coyote. That Spotted Hyena is huge and determined compared to these two species!

Never saw a 9mm drop a bear of any size, never even seen one look to be seriously impaired from the first shot either. The 9mm handgun is not a big game killer. Not even close. Sure they may die eventually. Those planning on it's use to save them have a false sense of security to pack one into areas you anticipate trouble. Nothing shy of the 41mag is a reasonable self defense handgun on big game, and the .44 mag is by a very large margin much better then the .41 magnum.

I agree with you JJ! Its not impossible that a 9mm round could kill a large dangerous animal. It generally would be better to have something bigger and more powerful. There are so many factors that have to be taken into account.
I have just a few ideas that are just my opinion. The following are my ideas for SP against some common dangerous animals if a handgun is the only possible firearm available or what someone has got. For cougars, the 9mm using upper end HP loads would be my bare bones minimum! A good 44 mag loaded with full power 240 grain HPs would be even better.
For Feral hogs, a 44 mag with 240 grainers would be my standard. If a person had to be in "hog country" for some reason and only had a 9mm; this would be better than nothing! I would be sure to use FMJ upper loads in order to get the greatest penetration.
For any of the bears in the US or Cananda, I would use either a 44 mag or on up to a SW 500! These are just my thoughts!

CNS only.

most issues with small calibers can be traced back to either non expansion or poor shot placement.

The problem with small calibers is shot placement target size tends to get smaller as the round gest smaller.

I hunt with a 32-20 a bit... never felt undergunned at all, and all deer died. But I have been outranged... IE couldn't get close enough to place the shot where I wanteed with confidence...

I've used 22LR many times on wild dogs here and while mostly none would quite hit 100 pounds, they are aggressive and take well placed shots to put them down humanely.

If I had to choose against a 150 pound hyena it would be a 357 wiht 180s or a 44 mag. I don't care for the 454/500 etc.... And of course personally I haven't been shy about shooting about anything, including up to around 225 pound pigs with the 45 I normally carry.

I have seen conservation officers several times put down deer hit on the road etc. At least 50% of the time those officers had to come bacak after shooting the deer in the head with a 9mm Luger caliber. I mean to tell you these deer were trying like hell to get back up again after being hit by a vehicle and shot int he head by a 9mm pistol.

I would have a hard time believeing someone who told me they shot a Hyena and dropped it to the ground using a 9mm Luger caliber, even if they hit it in the frigging head. Those animals just to lie down because someone shot them with a bullet! It best be something like a .308 or 30-06 cal., I would bet money on the 30-30 any day with a 170 grain bullet........it kills whitetail deer in the woods just fine for decades.

I doubt the outcome would be much different between a Federal 250 grain cast core out of the 41 Maggie and a 300 grain cast core out of the 44. And the 41 recoil is easier on the hands (at least mine).

Only firearm in the house was a 45 acp. Not my house or Mr 12 ga would have been my choice. There was a bear walking around the house knocking around the dogs and I went to the door to fire a couple rounds to scare him off. When I opened the door he stood up on the back step about three feet away. Eight rounds weny into his chest and neck pretty quick time and he died right there. I was never really sure if the fecal matter on the steps was his or mine. It did the job but as much as I like the 45, it would never be my first choice as a game getter despite the sampling of one.
Randy

The 9mm is VERY bullet specific. A good 125 grain HP bullet will put the cabosh on small to medium sized game....even black bears. They may not tip over right away, but they will tip over dead.

I shoot all matter of 9mm bullets into all kinds of stuff. We get a lot of road kill elk and deer around here. The DNR piles up road killed critters not far from my house (great testing grounds for bullets). The 9mm has NO problem penetrating an elk's skull with the right bullet. The 124 grain Remington HP's I prefer to use, exit the 4.5" barrel at 1,150 fps. (chronographed). They have no problem smashing through a deer's skull and exiting.

Most people use 100-115 grain FMJ bullets or very frangible HP bullet. Neither does much against anything other than paper. Many factory loads are pretty anemic as well. Some of the foreign 9mm ammo is pretty darn spiffy (loaded stout). I have no problem packing my 9mm around in black bear and cougar country. Sure a .44 is better, but the weight isn't. Flinch

I've seen over 400 bears shot with all sorts of handguns. Never been impressed with the options smaller then the 41mag. Never used the option of head shooting them, and it's not very likely that in a self defense situation a head shot is a good option with the way they quickly bob up and down upon approach.

I've watched more then a few in a tree 30 yards away shot in the chest just look down at us and start climbing further up the tree after being shot more then a few times. I've always kinda figured that if I'm in a defense of life situation and the animal I just tried to kill can continue to climb a tree, what would he do to me on the ground, and how long would he be doing it to me?

You have most likely read this before but it should shed some light on the reasoning for my beliefs here, I wrote this article for one of the Peterson magazines a few years back when I was a field editor for them. It's the original unedited version from my hard drive.
---------------------------------------------------------
Hunting bears with handguns

I have had quite a few guys over the years ask about handgun cartridges for bear hunting. I really like hunting bears with handguns. I have likely taken more with a handgun then by any other means myself. Handguns have some limitations and some, even though referred to as handguns are more like little handheld rifles then handguns. The general term of handgun seems to stretch the definition quite a bit to include these single shot cannons!

When I think of a handgun I see a revolver or semi-auto pistol in my mind. However today the Thompson Contender and other single shot
handguns seem to have taken over as the handgun of choice for serious big game hunters. I have owned many contender barrels and several contender actions in my life so I�m quite familiar with them.

During my early years as a Professional Hunter I was using dogs to hunt lions and bears. I took out a number of guys from the mid-west and eastern states for bears during the spring Idaho hunts and the fall Washington hunts. It was not unusual to take 20 or 30 hunters out per year and shoot 30-40 bears per season. The Idaho regulation allowed 2 bears per hunter per year and the Washington regulations allowed only one fall bear per person.

We booked a hunter from Ohio early in our guiding business. He was a police officer that wanted to hunt using his on duty carry gun. In Idaho any gun .22 center-fire or larger was the minimum for big game. Washington State had muzzle energy minimum requirement at that time. We took the policeman out on the hunt with his 45 ACP shooting 250-grain soft point bullets. His first bear was treed and shot without much trouble. The bear was in the tree about 20 yards above us. We caught our breath, took a couple photos and then he prepared for the shot and fired. The impact was solid, smoke could easily be seen coming out of the hole in the bear�s chest. The bear was angry and peeling bark from the tree after being hit! He began to climb further up the tree when I yelled hit him again. I did not want the bear coming down with the dogs tied up and unable to escape from this angry wounded bear. He was about 225-240 pounds. A nice brown colored typical Idaho spring bear. At the second shot which hit nearly the same place as the first the bear really started going up the tree fast and I yelled to shoot again. I think the third shot missed but the forth hit him solid sounding like a baseball bat hitting a homerun.

The bear was barely visible up in the branches of the tall fir tree when all of a sudden we heard him crashing down and falling to the ground. When he hit the ground he was up in a flash and rolling and running down the hill. He was dead when he came to a stop on the flat, about 100 yards below us.

This experience was really educational for me. I saw this bear shot quite a few times with little effect from that 45 ACP shooting good 240 grain soft point bullets. The hunters accuracy was great, the bullets were big and heavy, and the bear was close. Why would this combination not be a much better killer? The hunter was thrilled and excited to go shoot another bear! This time he loaded his 240-grain HP�s for the hunt. We had a conversation regarding the lack of �crumple power� his gun had shown. He was surprised I felt that his gun was weak, or exhibited a lack of power. He asked what I was expecting from a handgun. I said I expect a bear shot in the center of the chest with a bullet to die in seconds, not continue to climb a tree and growl or be in a fighting mood. I also said if the bear comes out of the tree alive next time, I would also have to shoot him to protect my dogs. The hunter, although he understood the issue with the dogs, was still surprised by my opinion of his guns performance. He also respected my need to guard the dogs should a problem occur with the next bear.

The second bear was bayed and running and bayed and running all day. It�s a trait big bears have so I was quite worried about the gun he had. Eventually this bear also treed and we were able to get to the base of the tree before he jumped out again. It was a big bear of at least 300 pounds. I also carried my .44 magnum revolver this time, as backup. At the shot, which the bear took in the center of his chest all he did was growl and slap the tree with his paw. I said keep shooting until he falls, if he comes down alive I�m going to have to shoot him too.

This bear started to come down the tree. At the next shot he stopped and began to climb further up the tree but fell dead when he hit the ground in a moment or two. The Ohio policeman was thrilled again and really excited to see that his carry gun was so good at killing a big animal like this bear. Far-be it from me to ruin his feelings on the hunt or his gun, but I thought the performance was pathetic! He returned home amongst the most satisfied of all the clients I have ever had. He must have done a great sales job too, because for the next several years the majority of my hunters were mid western police officers using their carry guns for hunting. During this time I relived many of these types of multiple shot hunts at close range with various types of handguns. I suppose it�s where my opinionated feelings have come from regarding handguns for bears or other big game. I also have to laugh when I hear guys talking about �back up� guns for hikes in bear country, or while fishing in Alaska. I also see this kind of chat on the Internet hunting forums. Many of the guys who really believe their handgun is the �be all-end all� choice for protection. They would likely be leaving the dead weight of their gun home if they saw it�s pathetic performance on a 300 pound black bear, much less an angry 1000 pound brown bear or grizzly!

There have been a lot of handgun cartridges used over the years that I would consider worthless hunting guns for big game. The first is the 38
special. It�s lack of penetration and poor bullets are not meant for hunting. A human being is a very soft and mentally weak animal. A Human shot in the leg will go down for the count screaming for help. A deer or bear shot the same way will be a 100 yards away or more before you realize you made a bad shot. I have seen 30 pound coyotes shot with a 357 magnum run a long way before falling down. A man shot the same way would be praying for his life. There are so many drug induced mental problems with humans that those dopers who are shot might be as hard to stop as a bear or deer. The drugs would likely make them more worry free and likely to flee or fight with a serious wound. If I were a policeman watching how my carry gun performed on a bear that allowed him to climb a tree, after a perfectly centered chest shot I would certainly consider a bigger gun! It seems to me many criminals are on dope and they would be like shooting an adrenalin filled bear!

So what are the cartridges which are failures, and the cartridges which are gems in the handgun world according to my experience with hundreds of bears killed? The bad choices are the 38 caliber the 9mm, and the 40S&W. These three should be strictly police work, targets or plinkers. The 40 S&W, and 9mm need cleaning and attention daily. I have seen plenty of these semi-autos fail to cycle with pine needles jammed into them and leaf mulch or dirt in the action. They seemed to have the highest level of cleaning and maintenance needed by far. Revolvers on the other hand seem to be trouble free and made for hunting!

The next group of guns can kill bears but I would certainly not consider them hunting guns. The 357 magnum is able to kill a bear much better then the 9mm and the 38 special even though they actually shoot the same bullets. The 357 mag is much better then the 40S&W as well. The 357-magnum case is just a bigger capacity shell able to provide much better performance. If I were a cop it�s likely what I would carry based on what I saw it do to bears of all sizes. Don�t mistake me here, I don�t like it as a hunting gun for big game especially bears. The 45ACP is another gun which worked but not what I would like in a bear, or big game crumpling handgun. I think soft point bullets with maximum loads would give you a false sense of security for bear backup as well. I don�t see the hard cast bullets in 357 mag being enough better to trust 100 percent of the time. They are not what I would carry and I would never suggest anyone hunt even the smaller black bears or deer with one. The .44 special was a decent performer but again it fell short of the crumple effect I like to see in a bear hunting gun.

This next group is where I think the minimum line is drawn. The 41 magnum and the 10mm seem to have the power to really make an impression
on a bear. I have seen both these cartridges knock bears down and break leg bones. Something the others just don�t seem to be able to manage
consistently. These guns shoot over 1000 fps with bullets well into the 200-grain weight category. They seem to have nearly equal power and
accuracy as well. This is where I would suggest a minimum bear hunting handgun for close range start. They are certainly less than 50 yard guns but a great tool for bait and hound hunting. I would not suggest this cartridge as a backup or self defense against bears, only for hunting.

Finally the best group of guns. These are cartridges, which have never failed to decide matters and have the ability to crumple a bear in his tracks most of the time. The .44 magnum, the 45 long colt, and the 454. I have killed dozens of bears with the .44 magnum in my life and I don�t recall a single one running off after the first shot. I have recovered very few bullets and have broken the bones of the shoulder and legs countless times. These guns are more like rifles in performance then the typical police handguns I�ve seen so often. With a 240 grain hollow point going 1200 or more FPS the .44 magnum revolver is at the top of the heap as a commonly used hunting handgun. With Randy Garrett's hard cast ammo it will whistle though the shoulders of any bear in America. My .44 magnum was a Ruger Red hawk with a 7.5� barrel. It was an easy to shoot gun with plenty of crumple power. The same gun in 45 Long colt or 454 would be as good at getting the job done. I also have a 4� barrel Smith and Wesson Mountain gun that is as good but do to the lower Velocity of the short barrel it has a distance limitation of about 40-50 yards in my opinion. I consider these the proper size handguns for hunting the big game of the world.

The final �sub-category� are the wildcats, the contenders, and the new big bore revolvers. There is now a whole host of big bore revolvers like the 480 Ruger, the 50 caliber S&W, and the 50 Linebaugh. There is even a 45/70 revolver available now! Clearly all these are excellent bear killers if you decide to pack the additional weight and handle the massive recoil forces.

Keep these three factors in mind when deciding on a handgun for big game or bears. Make certain it has 1000 fps impact velocity, not muzzle velocity. .40 caliber or greater diameter, and finally, heavy bullets in the mid 200-grain weight range or bigger. With handguns so long as the impact velocity is about 1000 fps the best way to improve power and visual effect is by increasing diameter and weight of the bullet.

Remember also there are ways of having an effective increase in bullet diameter without changing caliber. Make sure if you use hard cast bullets you have the largest flat nose on the bullet possible also known as the �meplat�. Randy Garrett loads a bullet in his ammo which has a large flat nose which is almost bore diameter! This has an enormous effect on bullet impact over a pointed or rounded nose bullet. Granted the over all diameter has not changed but the bullets impact diameter has improved by a whole bunch with such a big flat nose.

One other thing to consider, don�t think that just because you load a heavy hard cast bullet you have the most powerful load for your gun. This is a very common mistake. Those big heavy bullets will often whistle clean through a big bear like a field tipped arrow. The bears will die but often show little bullet impact reaction. They also tend to run off and die a great distance away. In my experience a high velocity hollow point bullet will cause a significant impact reaction and almost always allow an additional shot while the bear is stunned. The bullets about 240-260 grains in weight as fast as you can drive them will always show a greater impact effect then the heavy hard cast bullets do. They don�t penetrate as well or break big bones as well, but they don�t need to on a black bear. I have shot clean through many many black bears broadside with a 240-grain hollow point bullet at 1200-1300fps muzzle velocity. Upon impact the bears will stop and spin around biting at the wound and struggle to move away. With the many I have shot using a 300 plus grain hard cast bullets, they have launched out of sight like a rocket. Showing little if any reaction to being hit.


Don�t mistake those big heavy hard cast bullets for the most powerful ammunition your gun can use. They are when matched to the proper game, like buffalo, moose, elk, and many African species. However for the typical 250 to 500 pound soft skinned black bear they are a mistake to use.

Consider what works better on a deer shot through the lungs. A 375HH with a 300 grain solid having 4500 foot pounds of energy, or a 270 caliber rifle shooting a 130 grain soft point bullet with only 2400 foot pounds of energy? Clearly you see the energy is far greater and the bullet weight and diameter is bigger on the 375HH. Upon impact the 300-grain solid blows a hole right through and you cannot even tell if you hit the animal. With the explosive 130-grain bullet from the .270 the deer will launch into the air with a nerve reaction and fall within a few steps. It�s the projectile that decides the result much of the time, not the perceived, or calculated power your gun has.

Don�t focus so much on muzzle energy, or the hype surrounding heavy hard cast bullets. The hard-cast bullets do have exceptional penetration, but at the cost of small diameter wounds which don�t often have the same effect as the bigger diameter hollow point wounds which have much more of a shocking or stunning effect. The benefits an explosive soft point or hollow-point will provide you with is a certain visual reaction, and significant tissue trauma. The heavy hard cast bullets are designed for exceptional penetration only. Randy is a friend of mine we have sat and talked about this paradox of bullet choice many times. Black bears absolutely realize more trauma from higher velocity soft bullets, or hollow points. The super hard-cast heavy bullets pass through so quickly with so little transfer of bullet impact that the reaction is poor. Yes both designs will kill bears, but the faster pass through of the solids will make your effort to locate the bear much longer. Often I have seen hunters consider their shot a miss because the bear will show no reaction at all to being hit. If this kind of bullet is chosen the best solution is to break bones and hope the fragments of projected bone will assist in the penetration of important organs like the lungs and heart. If brown bears are the main target then the heavy hard cast bullets make sense. They can be 4-6 times the weight of a black bear and you will likely be shooting for shoulder bones on these big bears. Then the big hard cast bullets are the perfect choice.

I have not come to these conclusions by seeing one or two bears killed, but by seeing as many as several hundred killed. Anyone can see a bear shot with spectacular results once or twice and assume the cartridge bullet combination is perfect. However seeing the same combination twenty, thirty, or more times really starts to give you higher resolution repeatable results. The results that carry the most weight are the ones with the greatest resolution or highest numbers. I have heard countless hunters claiming that their XYZ caliber and bullet is the perfect choice. When asked why they think this, the reply is that they shot a bear with it one time and it worked perfectly. Well in my opinion one time does not make for a very scientific or credible set of facts! This works the other way as well. Plenty of people will make or see a bad shot on game and assume they need a bigger gun. When in fact they only needed to make a better shot!

9x19 vs. Hyena?

Really?

I've never shot a hyena, but I have shot dogs with a 9x19 (among other rounds).

I'd pass...quickly...unless NO other option was available and it was a "must shoot to live situation".

The 9x19 meeds VERY good bullets to be decisively effective at stopping humans. What, pray tell, makes anyone think it'd be a good choice against critters that: 1) hunt in packs, 2) pick fights with lions regularly, 3) have the gastric system of a city garbage truck, 4) have the endurance and adrenal capacity of a 'roided NFL defense (all of it), and 5) have jaws strong enough to crush the leg bones of elephants?

No thanks. Mr. Darwin's theory doesn't need me to volunteer in THAT fashion.

I think that would be an exciting hunt, to shoot hyenas over bait!
I'll bet the 35 Whelen could make them take a dirt nap!
whelennut

JJ, not to doubt your experience in any way, because I respect you, but I have a couple of questions about the cop in the first section of your article. You stated that he was shooting 250 grain soft point bullets in his .45 ACP for his first bear, then 240 grain hollow points for the second bear. Neither are available bullets from any of the bullet makers in .452 diameter.

.45 ACP factory loads top out at 230 grain bullets at an average of 850 fps. A 250 grain bullet would roll out of the muzzle at around 650-700 fps. That kind of performance wouldn't even get a deer's attention, let alone a bear.

You have to agree, most clients show up with the wrong ammo for the task at hand. They have done nothing more than shoot paper with with it. A LOT of poor performance is based on crappy bullet designs, not poor cartridge selection. Too many people base the performance of the cartridge on how a certain bullet performs when shot out of said cartridge. With the new advances in bullet design, many cartridges kill and perform well above what they should. Anywho, food for thought. Flinch

I agree, but we are talking about gun choices with what is available, cops don't shoot handloads, I doubt they can legally?

Anyway, as with most things there are exceptions. a 357mag in an anaconda or Python or any Ruger Revolver can far exceed the factory specs. However to keep this apples and apples we need to consider only factory fodder not custom handloads.

A few years ago a military man fishing at the Russian River stopped a bear "charge" with a 9. Stopped the sow, but didn't kill her, nor the cubs that were with her, IIRC.

He probably needed to hold it sideways. That would have worked.

So was the 250 grain Soft point and 240 grain hollow point information on the .45 ACP article a mistake or typo?

You are right, factory ammo in 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP is pretty pathetic. But then again, it is made to perform at short range and low velocity.

I shoot thousands of 200 grain SWC .45 ACP bullets over 5.5 grains of Hodgdon Univeral Clays powder. I get a chronographed velocity of 1,100 fps. out of several 1911's with 5" barrels. In my 16" Beretta Storm, I get 1,250 fps. with the same load. They are a ton of fun to shoot and get their with plenty of authority.

Handgun cartridges are definitely a hand loading proposition in order to obtain real performance. Flinch

I've never owned a semi auto other then a Ruger .22 so I don't know any more then what the hunter told me he was using. I took his info as fact based on it being his ammo, and not seeing any reason to doubt his statements to me. If the weights claimed need to be adjusted 10 grains or so one way or the other, it would not impact the results seen.

I do own a 45LC single shot handgun which I only use with 410 shells. It's called a commanchie, made in Argentina I could not tell you the weight of the bullets I have in factory ammo here right now. They came with the gun when I bought it. I have never paid attention. I can tell you the 6 shot works better then the 9 shot! Having loaded a zillion .44 mag and 357mag loads I'm better skilled at that bullet weight conversation.