Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats Winchester Model 70 bolt closure

Anyone know why Winchester designed the Model 70 so that when the bolt handle is turned down it clicks into an intermediate position, before full closure?

Need additional info. Not sure what you're describing. Is this with just one gun, or you've experienced this phenominon with more than one M-70?

DF

Dirtfarmer,

Current production (I checked a few). But I suspect all model 70's have the same behaviour.

When the bolt is turned down (in preparation to fire) the bolt first clicks or "notches" into a spot about 1/4 turn (note: the bolt will stay in this position if the rifle is put down). Then from this intermediate position the bolt is closed smoothly and quietly.

I find this feature useful when stalking - as a fire control technique - but I'm interested to learn if Winchester designed it for this or some other purpose.

what you are feeling is the cocking piece being let forward to the sear.

the cocking piece rides under spring pressure against the rear face of the bolt and the cocking notch, then when it is held back by the sear, it is no longer in contact.

My M-70's, pre and post '64, close pretty smooth. I guess I don't pay that part any attention, just closing the bolt in one motion. Guess I'll have to do a slow motion closing to see if I can pick up on what you're feeling.

DF

I think free miner got it right.

I don't think it was ever designed to run "hot" and leave the bolt at 1/4 cocked while stalking game,safety off.....if this is what you mean, it does not strike me as such a good idea.

I use it during the final moments of stalking, when walking slowly and rifle carried carefully in both hands.

I prefer to chamber a round only minutes before taking a shot, and not to use a safety at all, because it makes a noise when released that can spook game and I don't like the practice of carrying a loaded rifle on shoulder because I worry that the safety might be bumped off.

If the trigger on my Sako 75 is pulled when the bolt is in this position, the bolt will close and uncock without firing. However I have not conducted the same test with a Winchester model 70.

Note: when I first conducted this test with my Sako 75 I used a primed case without power.

Well, I understand what you're trying to do....but it still strikes me as less satisfactory than running hot in the final moments, and using the safety,which is a three position safety, and disengages the sear when in the full
"safe" position...there is no intentional "intermediate" position to the M70 cocking function.If you wind up with the bolt handle fully up,you are uncocked, and if fully down, you are in "fire" mode.....anything between is not part of the the way the rifle is designed,and you are slight downward movement of the bolt handle away from full fire mode,the force of the firing pin spring being the only thing seperating you from disaster.

The same forces which could move a safety off could also cause that bolt handle to move down far enough that you move to "full cock",and there is now sufficient force imparted by the firing pin spring to cause a discharge....the reason your Sako did not fire when you tried it.

This reminds me of a friend who, when I first hunted with him,noticed that he would chamber a round with his Rem 700,and then slowly lowered the bolt handle while holding the trigger back so that the firing pin was resting against a live round. His logic was that with a swift up/down movement of the bolt handle, the rifle was cocked and ready to fire....I asked him what happens if he drops or jars the rifle with the firing pin in that position...?

Slung is a no brainer and I can see simply closing the bolt over a full magazine,but empty chamber.

I certainly would not trust the tactic with a Sako, either....notwithstanding your "tests".

I hear these peculiar fears mentioned now and then about safeties being mysteriously moved off;generally it demonstrates that the user is not fully aware of the rifles status at all times,slung, hand held or whatever.These things should be automatically monitored.

I also hear about noisy rifle mechanisms scaring game, and we have round robbined about the issue here. I have no doubt it happens now and then,but I am not going to modify my use of the safety to accomodate the concern; if you are practiced enough, moving a M70 safety from fully engaged to fire mode is simple and so fast I don't give the matter a second thought even under the most extreme circumstances.

My last elk was approached from a distance, the rifle slung,empty.I chambered a round after dropping into a sit,engaged the safety immediately,with the herd moving up through a draw at 175 yards.Only when the targeted bull came into view did I disengage the safety and he was dead at the shot seconds later....nothing spooked......

In sharp contrast,last years mule deer buck required a long stalk thorugh broken country...as we approached where he'd been last seen,I stopped ,chambered up,fully engaged the safety and as we moved in slowly, he appeared at about 70 yards runnning in front of me; I had about 3-4 seconds to mount,aim and fire, as he ran past...I killed him first shot, the safety coming off as the rifle was mounted.

So you'll have to forgive me if I seem a bit incredulous at the question and the tecnique as I find it particularly unsound, and unsatisfactory. My suggestion is that a guy should practice with his rifle until he can manipulate the action and safety without giving the matter a second thought;this stuff should be so automatic in the presence of game, that you have no conscious memeory of having done it...it just "happens" through muscle memory resulting from repeated practice.

You can likely tell I don't like your idea,for which I apologize. But I really think it ain't so hot....

I find someone doing that and I'll be in the next county inside of ten seconds..

I assume you never hunted with that 'friend' again??

Redneck:He changed his ways pretty fast(like THAT day).....I edited my reprimand since this is a family thread...

I asked him "Are you [bleep] crazy?" Who the hell taught you to do that?

It was never repeated,even to this day. This was a long time ago..

BobinNH,

Thanks for your comprehensive comment.

I too know someone who had a practice of un-cocking a rifle on a chambered round. I don't advocate the practice, but for a different reason. Once the bolt is closed and uncocked, I don't view this as a highly dangerous state, because the rifle would need to be rammed muzzle first into the ground or some other solid object to fire a round. Instead, the reason I don't advocate that practice is because of detonation risk during bolt closure. If the trigger pressure is not kept firm during bolt closure the rifle might fire.

This relies on operator skill, so it would depend on how much you trust the skill of your hunting companion when it comes to determining the acceptability of practices like this.

That thought reminds me of a feature on the German designed Krico 902 bolt action rifles, which have a manual cocking device in place of a safety. In fact many older-style firearms have a manual cocking mechanism (revolvers etc). Are these unsafe?

Regarding the use of a safeties, I would not use the mid position on the model 70 safety because it is more vulnerable to being knocked off. In contrast the rearward position is quite secure.

I can see that you don�t like my �fire control� technique, but so far I�m unconvinced that it is a dangerous practice when compared to the risks associated with using a safety. I�m very practiced at this technique � it�s like second nature to me. I guess I like to have control of my firing pin, rather than letting the safety have control of my firing pin.

But I can accept than my technique might not be the best option for beginners, because safety with this technique relies more on the skill of the shooter and less on the design and build quality of a firearm.

Unbelievable... Please let me know when you're hunting in this area so I can be somewhere (anywhere) else..

As to this part: "my technique might not be the best option for beginners," - it should never, EVER, even BE an option...

And this: "...because the rifle would need to be rammed muzzle first into the ground or some other solid object to fire a round.." is so uninformed that it's shocking..


I'm sure I'll be flamed - and I couldn't care less..

There are several things wrong with your comments. Your idea that a rifle would need to be jammed barrel first to fire in that position is absolutely false. a simple drop on the butt from only a couple feet can easily fire off the round. With the firing pin resting against the primer there are a multitude of ways for the round to go off. Manufacturer's do multiple drop tests with the rifle in safe position and also with the firing pin resting on a live round to test just that scenario. I have witnessed some of these tests first hand and if you were to see just how easy they can fire in many different ways in that scenario you would count yourself one lucky individual that you had not had a serious accident yet.

The mid position on a M70, or a mauser for that matter, is not meant to be a "safety". The middle position locks the firing pin for easily dis-assembly of the bolt for maintainence.

Your practice of how you carry is EXTREMELY unsafe and dangerous. Even if you do not realize it you are carrying a rifle in full battery without the bolt being fully closed and lugs seated the way you operate. Your chance of a negligent discharge is exponentially higher than by using a safety. And you not only risk damage to your self and others but could easily ruin a great rifle if a round goes off without the bolt fully locked.

A Winchester safety can easily be controlled and rotated slowly to the fire position with almost zero sound. You can slowly rotate it quietly compared to flicking it forward and making a sound.

You need to learn and master safe gun handling techniques. If yo are so worried about the possibility of the tiny sound a safety makes that you put others at risk you have issues. There is no game animal worth poor safety habits.

I agree completely with Redneck and M1 Tanker. I tried to respond to your second post but it is so flawed on so many levels I simply don't know where to start.

All I can say is if I were a companion of yours,I'd leave the scene immediately;and if a professional guide I'd return your money and put you on the next plane home....

If you like the way a Krico functions then you should buy one,and not expect a M70 to function in a manner for which it was not intended.

You say you don't "trust" a M70 safety because you are concerned it will be bumped off....yet you "trust" yourself with a hot rifle, fully cocked,a short bolt handle movement from full battery with no safety ?

Let me get this straight....and to repeat..... you can keep track of a fully cocked, hot rifle, with safety disengaged, while moving through heavy cover or making a stalk, but you cannot keep track of a safety to prevent it being accidentally bumped off?

And you lack the presence of mind and dexterity to quickly and quietly disengage a safety in the presence of game with seconds on the clock?

This is so contradictory on so many levels...I'm afraid I simply do not understand.....

I don't "trust" any safety, but I know what you're saying. A safety is a mechanical device, and we all know the second part of that sentence, right?

Of course.. ..

I was refering to the operator's ability to keep track,and know the status, of his weapon at all times.

I don't believe in safeties coming off "by accident"..

.....after kicking his azz all the way 'round the camp first...

Glad I'm not the only one who finds his policy dangerous and frightening to the max..

One of the few times that words fail me.. It's best to just leave it at that...

M1Tanker, thanks for your informative comment. Particularly the bit about the mid position of the model 70 safety for disassembly, and the butt drop test with firing pin resting on primer. Previously i had heard about drop tests with rifle cocked and without safety on (to test trigger resistence) but not with firing pin resting on primer. Makes me wonder about the safetiness of the Krico 902. But like I said earlier, I don't advocate (or use) that practice - instead i was trying to access risk on facts known to me. You have increased my understanding - thank you!

My main "beef" with safety users is that they often load and cock a rifle and engage the safety, and then carry the rifle slung on their shoulder for an hour or more. In comparison to this practice, the half-cock techique, employed only a minute or so before firing, doesn't seem so unreasonable - with the condition that during the last minute or so before firing, the hunter moves very slowly and with great care.

Not to mention that some hunters would disengage a safety a minute or more before firing - with bolt fully closed.

Yes a model 70 safety is safer than the half-cock approach, to differing degrees depending on the scenario, but at the same time I believe a loaded rifle should never be slung over the shoulder, even with safety engaged. Does anyone disagree with the latter?

Do not disagree; I don't sling with a loaded rifle.

For still hunting/ tracking/poking in cover, alone,I am hot, safety engaged.Opinions vary on this,but I have done it this way for years.

On a long spot stalk,I am empty and do not chamber until things appear imminent and I am close;safety is fully engaged.

I have had guys explain they become nervous nellies when game is close,and they are afraid the safety will not come off in time so the safety is disngaged as they anticipate a shot;not good IMHO....I say spend more time in dry fire practice and drill with your rifle,until mounting and disengaging the safety become instinctive.

I am aware there are some rifles (Heym?)where the safety IS the cocking piece;their double rifle and some bolt actions come this way IIRC and the rifle is not cocked until the safety is engaged.....

This is really like driving a car,applying brakes and steering as situation dictates,always with an eye toward not crashing into things or jeopordizing yourself or anyone else in the process,with safety the major concern. A blown opportunity is not earth shattering....there will be more animals later.