Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Competitive Shooting 1000 yard report

Oh yeah, one more comment, where Denys shoots... I have not been enamored with how the range is buffered on one side, open on the other and allows the wind to do things with limited flags visible to show whats going on. I"d have to shoot on that range a lot more now that its opened up to 1000 to figure out whats going on. But it may be like Swift... Swift can get very confusing due to the lay of the land and there if the wind comes in from 2 oclock or so at you, it can do really weird things including bouncing off a taller berm, and coming back across the range to try to leave at 4 oclock, the whole time its building speed funneling up the rise at the same time to crest over sorta at the firing line...

Given the right location of flags with tall enough poles I bet Swift could give you that Perry flag thing I"ve seen a few times... one flag full left, one full right, and one straight up the pole pointing to God.

It would not be pointing to God, it would be giving you the flag equivalent of an obscene gesture.

The upwind flags are definitely of greater interest but lets look at the trajectory of my bullet from 0 to 1000 yards. It will reach its apex at about 575 yards downrange. At that point, the bullets is about 20-22 feet above the ground as the firing line is on a berm about 8 feet high and the target is on a carrier behind the bits at about the same height.

In time elapsed, the midway point also corresponds to the apex, .71 seconds at 575 yards and it will take the same amount of time to cover the last 425 yards as the bullets slows down.

The bullet is two and a half feet above the boreline by the time it gets to 100 yards and it got there in a tenth of a second. It gets to 200 yards in less than a quarter second and by that time it's 4 and one half feet above the boreline. So, my thinking is the first flag doesn't really mean much of anything in terms of bullet displacement; the bullet is low and very fast. On the other hand, one must also be cognisant of the multiplying effect of any deviation incurred early in the trajectory.

I am more of a proponent of watching the flags around the halfway point. At that time the bullet is high in the air, as high as it will get and the velocity has decreased some. The bullet will spend as much time covering a the last 400 yards or so as it did getting to 600 yards. It will be a play thing for the winds a lot longer over there.

Now, I understand that wind deflection is a function of the differential between ToF in a vacuum and ToF in the atmosphere, but I also think the BC value of the bullet is decreasing as the velocity decreases therefore the wind has more effect on the bullet for the last half of the trip, time wise. One must temper by recognizing that any wind induced deviation in the latter part of the trajectory has a lot less time to manifest itself, but it is definitely not negligeable since the bullet is so vulnerable at that time.

So, while I do watch the near flags and feel the breeze on my face, I am very much aware of what the midpoint upwind flags are doing. The liars.

I totally understand that theory of mid range flags.

Though personally I still adhere to the theory once knocked off course you'll never regain that much back to center basically(though differing winds can come into play).

As noted I first look for the most honest flag on a given day. If it happens to be at midrange, so be it.

At 600 you often only get a 300 yard flag anyway, no 500 or 400 yard flags... and so it is.

When shooting at 1000 I prefer that there be a 700-800 yard flag so I'm not very far off you.

I have thought about the height of the bullet vs the full effect of the wind but I have never applied that either.

Might be such that if I did I could shoot better.

Bottom line to it, IMHO you can't be set in your ways as to what flag you want to watch, because it either wont' be there, wrong side of range, will be lying etc....

On a home range though you should know which ones to expect to watch on a given day. Thats home court advantage.

Of course all this doesn't matter when you shoot the 7 that you couldn't see the indicator for. BTDT more than a few times unfortunately. Its not shooting it twice to confirm thats the only real saving grace after the fact...

BTW your heigh calc makes me rest easier.. I came up with almost those exact figures a while back while trying to trim up my 1000 yard range from gowing tree limbs... Seems like for calcs running the 223 and 80 sierras figuring that would be the worst load I ever shot... around 13 feet or so. Then add in terrain elevation differences vs my target height. I am glad to know I probably trimmed enough though.

You make some very valid points (you usually do.) But I think we both agree that you have to be aware of all the flags even if you decide to rely on a specific one. So saying that you do not look at all the flags is not completely correct.

You are right in that if your bullet is off course at the start it will not get better, but I keep thinking that the wind at the firing line is really irrelevant, within reason of course. The difference between 600 yards and 1000 yards are huge when it comes to wind effect, to my mind much more than can be accounted for by the simple increase in distance. In F-class the targets grow in direct proportion to the distance (they do also in regular highpower, but we are talking about a higher degree of precision with F.) But where one can clean a 300 yard target or even a 600 yard target, cleans of 1000 yard targets are unheard of in FTR and extremely rare in F-Open, it may occur on absolutely perfect days.

So my contention is simply that more stuff happens downrange where the bullet is more vulnerable.

I don't know if that makes sense to you.

Makes total sense. Don't know that I agree with it though. Does that make sense? Grins.

As to difference between 600 and 1000, on the order of 3 times worse from my shooting IMHO.

The differnece between 800 and 1000 alone seems like 800 can be somewhat easy while 200 yards further can royally suck... same with 900-1000... Its not what it appears often.

Absolutely. Just because something sounds logical does not mean it's right.

FTRShooter

Hmmmm.....sounds to me like you guys were working in a 'fish-tail' wind! Doesn't take much at 1000 for that condition to tear your azz up!

It was a nasty wind. The official scores were sent out last night and I do not remember seeing anything that low, especially from some of out HM sling and our HM F-open shooters. When these guys and gals start hitting 5s and 6s, you know it's time to pack it in.

When they start hitting 5/6s its time to stop shooting to win, and try to figure out for the next time, if there is ANY way to beat it. And by beat it I mean is anything safer than anything else.

When it was as nasty as it could get is when I would go into learning mode taking all kinds of notes down as to what killed one the worst, and what appeared to work the safest. And by safe I don't mean all 10s or 9s but much more like what wont' give me 7s and 6s etc.... I"d rather run all 9s than drop a 3-4 bad shots.

And yeah, fishtails... at long distance... with lots of speed... can easily mean 5 mins on the gun in a direction, and if you miss the minor flip, thats 10moa miss in theory.. one reason that shooting in a boil would only give you a 5moa miss...... rahter than the compounded miss.

I know you still get the scores and the ones from last Sunday tell a story. Yes, after my decent score in the second match I was all pumped up to do well in the third and final match. After the first several rounds for record (I only ever use 2 sighters,) I knew I was screwed and I did everything I could to simply stay in the 9. The 2 quick Xs at the start seemed more a fluke than skill and I fought for every 9. The three 8s I collected just reinforced how bad things were out there but I just accepted them and moved on. I did catch an X towards the end of the 20 round string, but that just made the 8s a little less destructive; the bleeding was on. Holding on one side of the target for one shot than holding on the other side for the next and back again was just "interesting."

After that match I swore not to shoot in another match ever again. Until the next time.

I glanced at the match bulletin IIRC, and then deleted it. Looked like all suffered equally so it was conditions for sure.

And I can only imagine how rough it is since you shoot at a reduced target.

Fishtails at long range, as noted, and especially high MPH fishtails..... again a reason to test out shooting boils one more time when you get the chance... just in case.

Well, you would have been proud of me this past weekend; I shot the 300yard prone match with my service rifle, no scope or bipod.

I had not shot that rifle in any competition for over 6 years and I had a though time of it. During the first match, my glasses got totally drenched in sweat and I could not see the target. It took me several shots to get on paper and I still managed to crossfire. I was miserable and thinking I should have just brought my FTR rifle instead.

But I really wanted to complete the match and on the second and third round, I made sure I had my microfiber towel to deal with my glasses and that took care of the problem.

I also discovered that my eyes had not gotten better over the years and I had a difficult time focusing on the front sight and when I did, the lollypop target picture was difficult to maintain with any degree of reliability. I even managed to turn the windage knob in the wrong direction. I have never done that with a scope, well not on Sunday anyway.

It was difficult, it was frustrating, I did not do well. But I had a great time and I look foward to the next 300 yard match where I will do it with the service rifle again.

A couple of things I noticed. Remember that my MR FTR rifle is an AR-15 of sorts. The SR grip is crap, it is way too small for my hand with my long fingers. The Tubb grip on my FTR rifle in contrast, just fills my hand properly. The SR stock is short for prone position especially for a 6'4" guy like me. Mt FTR rifle has that Magpul PRS stock fully extended. I miss my through-the-triggerguard bolt release.

I also find that my FTR position does not work well with the SR. In FTR, my legs are straight back behind me, parallel to the rifle, in SR I have to bring up my right knee. The sequence is somewhat different so I had to remember a lot of stuff from way back when; it's easy for old guys to get comfortably set in their ways and difficult to break out of them.

I had a lot of fun, but it was work.

You just aren't cut out for SR. Not many have the dedication required to eak out a living with an SR.... grins... I loved the challenge and always felt like when I grabbed a MR... it was like cheating... Grins...

I'd probably suck these days though... I know I'm 20-30 pounds too much weight to start with too.... sitting would kill me.

That being said I shot SR exclusively for so many years I bet I could still almost do it in my sleep....

Are you calling me fat?

You should know that I have dropped 40+ pounds since you last saw me and I'm still losing.

F-TR shooter are you going to be at the Rocky Mountain Palma Matches or the Santa Fe Long Range Regionals? My son and I are going to shoot a couple days of the Rocky Mountain Palma, 1 day of team and 1 day of individual. It will be my first F-TR match (he's shot a couple already)as the few matches I've shot have been in F-Open.

You need some lessons in comprehension? I'm calling ME fat. 20-30 pounds is too much extra around the middle, I need to be down to 175 or so... more sucks...

Unfortunately not. My work and travel schedule precludes me for attending anything but weekend matches, including travel time. I have been to TSRA in Bastrop several times now, but I always get there on Friday evening and get home Sunday late afternoon. I've even had to drive home and get to the airport right away.

Going to the Nationals is a treat and I have to schedule it months on advance and it's still not a given as anything can happen between now and then.

Also, I am nowhere good enough to justify going to lots of matches out of town. But I would like to.

I wish you good luck and have fun. I wait for a detailed report.

Denys

Excuse me. Does this NM AR make me look fat?

Hell, I never knew I was supposed to be good to go to out of town matches.... Carolyn and I went to Perry with less than a full year of shooting, and as UN shooters..... you know where you rank then....

Hope you make it to the Nationals.I know what you mean about work and scheduling I have leave during that timeframe, but my kids school and work will allow him to shoot only one day.
I don't go far for matches myself Raton is just a couple hours down South so we started shooting the F-Class there as well as the Sporting Rifle Matches a few times a year. The results might be a little embarassing, but I guess I'll post them anyway.