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Hummingbird:
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<br>Why don't we just review the posts as originally posted, not your very loose interpretation of them.
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<br>As posted by Okanagan:
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<br>"Just curious: how about this for a test? If we had one excellent marksman, a long range man, shoot the same rifle at two targets, one at say 1500 yards, the other at 100 yards. The targets could be the typical 8 or 10 inch plate to represent vitals, or we could make it more realistic and mark out a deer vital area on a life sized target and cover it with real deer hair. The shooter could have a spotter by his side with bigeyes and any other equipment. I would be willing to bet even money shot for shot, that he will hit the closer target and miss the farther one, if I could find a taker to bet he will hit the 1500 target and miss the 100 yard one. The more shots fired the better. The only catch is that the shooter has to be neutral and do his best to hit each shot."
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<br>Your first response:
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<br>"Hello
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<br>With my spotter and a spotter round fired first (as we always do while hunting) in front or behind the animal, I would take that bet. I would also only take the shot with the absence of wind gusts just like when we are hunting.
<br>Something else to remember, The elk kill zone is closer to 24 " and the deer is 16"to 18" which contains the heart and lungs.
<br>The elk especially have a large heart and very large lung area.
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<br>Darryl Cassel "
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<br>My bet proposal:
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<br>"I like that bet, I'll shoot an 8 inch plate at 100 yards and you and your spotter get the same target at 1500 yards. Shall we say a $1000 a shot, both hit, no pay, either miss and the other hits, pay on the spot in cash. Shoot until one side says "Uncle". "
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<br>Now you said you would take the bet. and I said, I like that bet and I would shoot the short and you would shoot the long, so as to make it a real contest(bet).
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<br>Am I ready for that? Anytime, anywhere. The only thing I changed from Okanagan's original proposal was using the same shooter. Somehow I don't trust your objectivity.
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<br>You can HUMM all you want to but those are the facts as is quite clear by the above quoted posts.
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<br>I'll tell you what, if you can prove what I have written above wrong I will donate $1000 to the charity, gun club, or organization of your choice, but if you post a response disputing this post and can't prove me wrong, then you have to donate $100 to the charity, gun club, or organization of my choice.
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<br>Or, better yet, we can do the bet and I will donate all my winnings to the N'RA. In other words, HUMMINGBIRD, you can dissemble all you want to but the above quoted posts are the FACTS. Which is something some of you long range snipers seem to have trouble keeping track of.
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Wyowhisper:
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<br>You are not even able to be internally consistent. First, I am retired because I have a hired hand, then I work too hard because I have only one. You should try to remember what you write, it helps the continuity. Do you drink a bit much?
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IFID,
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<br>The way it happened was.. at first I thought you were retired becaue you seem to have all the time i the world to be here running your mouth ( fingers ) Then you boasted about how you run your BIG ranch with one hand. You continued to maintain how wise and intelegent you are. What I mentioned was than if your so intelegent, you might have mroe than one hand to help you run your ranch. Which make me think you just a story teller and liar as someone with a BIG ranch and one hand would not have as much free time as you. Either that or you work your hand to death.
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<br>You keep running your mouth, you keep telling everyone how much money you have and how you hunt all over the world.... See guys like you that just spout off about how good you are at this and how good you are at that..usually need some stroking for a reason...
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<br>At least the LRH were asked how good they, were or how far they have shot... you just came here running your mouth and throwing around your money...
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<br>Hey if that makes you feel like a man then hey go for it..
<br>You must need somthing to occupy all your time.
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<br>In all my work related encounters and situations I've been in, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. I try not to stereotype. I can't do that with you. You act just like the texans everyone can't stand. Runnin' your mouth and throwin' around your money.
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<br>No I don't drink much at all you A$$. Your trouble is you havn't had the snot kicked out of you in a while and you have no respect for anyone.
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<br>Have a nice day.

If (Alligator)
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<br>As per the original poster, it clearly says, the "same" rifle at the same size targets at 1500 "AND" 100 yards and his point was, the 100 yard target would be hit more times which I agreed with him. I honed in on the "same" rifle at the two ranges.
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<br>As per a bet, I also said if my spotter and I can take a spotter round first (As we do on game in front or behind them) I would take that bet.
<br>I was under the understanding that each person would be doing the shooting at the two ranges (100 and 1500) and using their same rifles at the same targets, was the bet I agreed to.
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<br>Both contestants would be shooting the same two ranges at the same size targets and with the same rifle they choose.
<br>That's what I would bet.
<br>I only added more realistic kill zone target sizes to the 1500 yard mark.
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<br>Did "we" possibly misunderstand that very first part? Maybe we did.
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<br>Your the one that came flying in with the $1000.00 per shot and then "we" started adding spice to the scenerio.
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<br>If this was a misunderstanding on both parts then, that's all it was. Misunderstandings happen many times on forums because it's not in person where things can be explained and thought out much better.
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<br>I would NEVER bet a $1000.00 per shot against someone shooting at 100 yards and making me shoot at 1500 at the same target. that would not be healthy to my bank account.
<br>I would however, bet someone, if they had to shoot 100 yards AND 1500 Yards with the "same" rifle just as I would do.
<br>If we shot BOTH ranges, that would be interesting but, the advantage would now be in my favor and that would not be fair to you, mainly because of the equipment issue.
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<br>I can see how this got blown out of proportion.
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<br>Later
<br>Darryl Cassel
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Darryl, now that you have unequivocally agreed to the obvious, that a decent marksman will hit a target at 100 yards more often than one at 1500, is there any possiblity that you might carry this logic over into game shooting and admit the merest slim tiny possibility that even a wonderful LR hunter might be more likely to miss or wound an animal at 1500 than at 100? Honest, LR guys, such an admission will not cause your world to crumble, nor will it be the end of LR shooting at game. You are not giving up much to agree with reality, which is what this debate is all about. It has taken us five pages of posts to get agreement that is it is easier to hit closer targets. How many will it take to admit the same for game?
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<br>Wyo, I'm not against you, nor denigrating you or your choices. You guys just don't get it. If we doubt that MK bullets are the best for big game, you reply that we are ignorant, arrogant and close minded, attacking you and the very principles of your "way". You are driving folks away.

Okanagan
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<br>Yes, a target such as an 8" plate "SHOULD" be hit more often at 100 yards (BY SOME) as comparied to 1000 or 1500 yards using the SAME 8" plate and rifle. That I will admit, no doubt.
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<br>I have said all along that, a 24" kill zone (elk) target is very easy to hit at 100 yards, 1000 and 1500 yards.
<br>Yes again, to it being easier for most (not all) 100 yard shooters to hit it at that range.
<br>Any LR Hunter I know, will also hit it (24") at 1000 or the 1500 yard mark without to much problem, but overall, I think it would be easier to hit at 100 yards.
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<br>Here is the catch though, we must be doing something right, because we (my group and other groups I have talked to) have not lost an animal "we have hit" and THAT"S a fact.
<br>With the reaction to the hit at long-range, the animal just lays down, even with a hit "NOT" in the kill zone. Remember how large an elk or deer is compaired to that 8" plate.
<br> As soon as it lays down, another shot is into it in a matter of seconds.
<br>Remember, with the bigeye optics, we can see the bullet go right into the animal and if you ever have a chance to see the video, it's easy to see.
<br>This has been talked about by Dave King and the rest of us.
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<br>So if you give us the elk or deer size targets, we could put that animal down as fast or faster, in most cases, then "some" hunters could at 100 yards. A person that can hit an 8" plate at 100 yards off hand is much better then the average hunter and I think you will agree.
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<br>I hope that explained what I have been trying to say here in a rational manner.
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<br>My wife and I most every year, shoot a 10" aggregate at Williamsport. That is 10 Shots at each target for Group and in all 10 matches. That is 1 MOA at 1022 yards. Obviously we can hit a 24" target at 1500 yards quite easily with our much MORE powerful hunting guns.
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<br>So to sum this up, If a Longrange hunter does his home work, he won't loose the animal because they don't run as they do with the short range hunter.
<br> Remember, I'm 62 years old and have been a short range hunter for many years and still am.
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<br> I can't agree with your statemnet that we are more likely to wound one and "it get away " because, it has "NEVER" happened to us and I honestly have not seen it happen.
<br>If I had, I would agree with your statement.
<br>I have seen it happen at short range though.
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<br>I'm not hedging on this issue, just being honest with you as to what I have seen and I won't agree with something when it has NEVER happened to us.
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<br>Darryl Cassel
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We've never lost an animal.
<br>We have a spotter with bigeyes beside us.
<br>We've never lost an animal.
<br>We watch the bullet all the way to the target, which means we've never lost an animal.
<br>We shoot a spotter shot before we shoot at the animal.
<br>Did I mention that we've never lost an animal?
<br>The wind never changes or gusts between spotter shot and money shot, at least it cannot change enough to make us miss the vitals. We say so. That settles it.
<br>We've never lost an animal.
<br>If we miss the first shot, the second is always in the vitals.
<br>That's why we've never lost an animal.
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<br>Our experience with Match King bullets invalidates the manufacturer and experience of all other hunters.
<br>We use Match Kings and that's why we've never lost an animal.
<br>Our animals are so peaceful that they always lie down in the open when we hit them.
<br>That's also why we have never lost an animal.
<br>Animals we hit never get under cover or out of sight after the shot, and we can always see them for one half mile in any direction if they run (which I must remind you categorically that they never do since they have been hit at LR).
<br>Oh, I forgot to mention that we've never lost an animal.
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<br>Double lung hit deer will run for half a mile if shot at short range (and so will the Easter Bunny) but not if hit at long range.
<br>We've never lost an animal, by the way.
<br>Animals shot at close range are always on the run, panicked by hunters who must shoot at them offhand, and then the animal always runs till it drops.
<br>So we've never lost an animal.
<br>We've never lost an animal because the behaviour of hit animals is totally different if the bullet has traveled more than 1k yards, than if they are standing closer to the muzzle. Trust me on that one.
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<br>If a person hasn't shot at animals at over 1K he or she cannot possibly discuss any factor of such doings with us, just like you have no right to contact your congressman about a law, because you aren't a congressman. (My apologies to any congressmen here. You are exempt and do have the right to speak to congresspeople.)
<br>By the way, we've never lost an animal.
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<br>Anyone who questions what we do, whether on ethics or components, is an unbeliever who does not believe we can hit anaimals that far. He is closed minded, arrogant, and almost certainly a slob hunter who throws his money around (unlike our guys who shoot low cost LR rifles) and loses wounded game regularly because he takes low odds shots, unlike our 2k cinch shots.
<br>We have never lost an animal.
<br>Because we've never lost an animal it means that anything we do or say is OK and beyond question.
<br>Did I tell you we've never lost an animal?
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Okanagan
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<br>I don't know what your problem is but, I was being honest with you and you can't seem to accept that. Maybe because I didn't agree with you like you don't agree with me and the LR folks on here?
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<br>I told YOU and others here that I will speak the truth no matter what, and I have. If it's the truth, live with it.
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<br>You don't have to believe me at all. In the same breath don't expect an answer from me either. I believe you were the one that asked the questions and asked me to respond. I did that.
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<br>I was only trying to tell you the facts because I thought you were genuinly interested. I see I was wrong.
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<br>I'll respond to anyone who is interested in longrange hunting and the truth will be told, ALWAYS .
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<br>Darryl Cassel
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<br>As an add on here--- I have a question if you care to answer it. Did I just read where you shot an elk at 800 yards??? Did you kill the elk or did it run away from you?

Wyowhisper;
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<br>So good to hear from you again. Reading your posts is a perfect example of why children should stay in school. Or maybe why the spell checker is so necessary for some?
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<br>I responded to your posts attacking me and you seemed to take offense. You are the one who made all the allegations and assumptions, not me. You and some of the other Long Range Snipers must subscribe to the "Big Lie" theory of posting. Repeat something long enough, however inaccurate and people will believe it. Might work, if the person who is being lied about could not respond. Of course, unluckily for you, I can.
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<br>It took quoting from the original posts to convince Darryl(in light of his last post I am dropping the Hummingbird, however well deserved) to backpedal his unicycle and admit that "we" might have had a misunderstanding about the bet, there was no "we" who had a misunderstanding, unless he is using some form of the pontifical "we" referring to him and all the other LR campfollowers who jumped in after I offered to really make a bet out of the bet he said he would take. I understood then and understand now exactly what was offered. Please see my above post about the matter if you have forgotten the facts in your rush to judgement, or is that just posting your feelings of the moment?
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<br>So, I guess, since space on this site is not limited I will rehash your attacks and see how you want to twist the facts from there.
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<br>Your first personal reference to me in this thread that I noticed was when you wrote on 3/15 7:58 AM: "IFID.. your name say alot about you ( if it flies it dies ) you want the feeling of power and control the ability to kill at will. This is exactly why you feel talked down to and why you feel LRH's act superior. You fit the mold of a Texan, lotsa money and a loud mouth. Thats fine, I know alot about Texans I am partners with one in the hunting operation. He'll be the first to admit ( especially the ranchers ) ( he used to be one ) they talk alot cause they have the money to back it...thats OK though. " And then later in the same post, "You offered a bet that seem a little one sided.. when things got even you changed your specifics of the bet."
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<br>See above post about the bet, try to get your facts straight for a change, and I never mentioned my personal financial position, only the stakes for a bet. For all you knew at that time, I might have to borrow it from a friend.
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<br>For clarification, and to disprove your cheap psychological shot, I gave the origins of my handle. You seem to resent that as well.
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<br>"Loud mouth", that seems to be your term for anyone who either disagrees with you, or is willing to back their word with money. Do you have a mirror?
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<br>Trudging on:
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<br>You wrote on 3/16 at 6:52 AM: "What happened on this forum is when one of the LRH posted what he had accomplished. A couple of EGO driven individuals had to one up him, or prove they were just as big of a man as he was.. look at the challenge how freakin rediculous. $1000 a shot. Just goes to show that he with money and attitude had to show it. That offensive not to me but to everyone...
<br>I own a ranch and have 500,000 acres to play on .. but I don't shove money into someones face to challenge them ... thats just plain ASSININE!!!!!!!!!!"
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<br>Again, your opinion, I just like a bet, particularly when someone, Darryl,has let his "EGO"(using your words) override his common sense. I had no ego involvement at all. I just like taking the winning side of sucker bets, or, as was obvious to anyone but LR snipers, a bet made to illustrate a point. And, I don't bet for nickles anymore, I left that in the schoolyard about the time you say you quit, that is the sixth grade, which I suppose was humor on your part but reading the content of your posts, I am not positive. Note that you mentioned money again, seems to be a recurring theme with you. Like I said, if it is envy, you should try to get over it.
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<br>Your post all of 33 minutes later on 3/16 at 7:25 AM:
<br>"Howdy pard, good morning to ya.... Love your analagies they kill me... so professor, how would you analyse yourself... the best, most arrogant egotistical person on here.....glad you had fun in Argentina, hope you kill thousands of 'em... I'm sure you have got the money to go back time and time again."
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<br>Here you go again with the money theme. Class envy? I dunno, you keep bringing it up. I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be a "professor", and I still don't know where you got the egotistical and arrogant, guess you just don't like being replied to in the same vein as your posts, but that is your opinion and I have evaluated them and to the extent they have any merit, rejected them. LOL Now that might be arrogant, but you deserve it at this point.
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<br>And again on 3/16 at 8:48 AM in a couple of places in the post: "Oh, I am outside everyday to .. see I WORK on my ranch I don't hire someone else.. ..ooops that was nasty
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<br>You've probobly worked too but now your retired. I'm glad you have the oportunity to enjoy life, others should be so lucky ..."
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<br>I then explained that you were making untrue assumptions that I was retired and I ignored the slur implying that I don't work, just loll around letting my 62 year old ranch hand do all the heavy lifting. Another funny one from you.
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<br>On the same general topic on 3/16 at 5:14 PM: "One hand to run a ranch and you say your age brings you wisdom.. huh... "
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<br>If you could read beyond your acknowledged level of education, you could have read that I never said that age had made me personally wise, and I quote my paragraph about age and wisdom to allow you another chance at understanding what I wrote: "But, I will say this, age may not always equal wisdom, and that is certainly true(I can think of one cogent example on this thread) but youth is wasted by the young. One of my favorite sayings, is Too soon old, too late smart."
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<br>Back to your posts.
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<br>On 3/17 at 7:29 AM you wrote: "Then you boasted about how you run your BIG ranch with one hand. You continued to maintain how wise and intelegent you are. What I mentioned was than if your so intelegent, you might have mroe than one hand to help you run your ranch. Which make me think you just a story teller and liar as someone with a BIG ranch and one hand would not have as much free time as you. Either that or you work your hand to death. "
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<br>Again, your reading or comprehensive skills need work. I never boasted about running a "BIG" (your word) ranch, I actually used the term "fairly large" and it was not a boast, simply a statement refuting another of your assumptions that I was a non-working retiree. I also never said I was "wise or intelegent". For one thing I would spell it correctly. Perhaps you just assumed that I am intelligent on the basis of your ability to respond, but I wouldn't presume to understand your reasoning. Now you are calling me a liar, but I will let any readers of this decide who is a liar. I believe that most people who know the average size of ranches in Central or E Texas would agree that mine is fairly large and well above the average. Now, if it was in W Texas or possibly parts of Wyoming, it wouldn't be a good pasture. Why don't you ask Boggy Creek Ranger or Need One or anyone that knows anything about East Texas ranch sizes? I'll be glad to tell anyone via email the size of this ranch just to prove the point, but in Texas it is not considered polite to discuss you land holdings in specific detail in public. I can't speak for Wyoming.
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<br>Back to the liar, if you can quote one fact that I have mentioned about myself that is untrue in this, or any other thread, I will pay YOUR choice of charities the oft mentioned $1000. Otherwise the other readers of this post and we will both recognize that, in fact, you are the miserable envious liar who is trying to bring someone else down to your level because they don't agree with you and other's style of Long Range Animal Sniping.
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<br>Nearing the end of this: In the same post above that I am responding to you say, "You keep running your mouth, you keep telling everyone how much money you have and how you hunt all over the world.... See guys like you that just spout off about how good you are at this and how good you are at that..usually need some stroking for a reason..."
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<br>Money envy again. To repeat I have never mentioned how much money I have or haven't. The ONLY time I mentioned hunting overseas was in describing the origin of my handle, hardly what I would call running my mouth. You are making an assumption and attempting to portray the ability to make and spend money as a negative. Please quote where I have said how much money I have or where I have spouted off about how good I am at anything. I doubt that you will be able to, and I don't need ANY stroking from any GUYS that I know of. But that is another topic. Maybe you aren't old enough for that one, either.
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<br>And finally, thankfully, in the same post, you wrote:
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<br>"Your trouble is you havn't had the snot kicked out of you in a while and you have no respect for anyone."
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<br>If that is meant as a threat, then just spit it out, don't beat around the bush. Considering our age differences, if you made the atttempt, you might be able to physically kick the snot out of me, as you so artfully phrase it, but it is very likely that you would die trying. I respect those who earn it, most posters on 24hr have earned my respect, even if we disagree. A few haven't. I even respect you and the other Long Range Snipers for your shooting abilities. What you have continually failed to understand is that disagreeing with someone's activities is not necessarily disrespect. It is disagreeing.
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WyoW,
<br>For your information I have met IIFIDs and I assure you if he says he runs his ranch with one hand he is absolutely correct, it has four fingers and a thumb on it, usually covered with a leather glove. I sold him a high dollar safe several months ago and he met me half way to take delivery. He had more people to do that little chore than needed. He runs things with an iron fist but very generous and compasionate from my observation. As for kicking the snot out of someone, don't think you want to go there either. -- no

Darryl, thank you for a straight reply. You said:
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<br>"I can't agree with your statemnet that we are more likely to wound one and "it get away " because, it has "NEVER" happened to us and I honestly have not seen it happen.
<br>If I had, I would agree with your statement.
<br>I have seen it happen at short range though."
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<br>So what you are saying is that in spite of stats and odds, you won't agree that it could happen if it hasn't happened to you.
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<br>You are also saying that you can beat the odds of missing or wounding at long range, but that short range hunters cannot overcome the lower odds they face, since you've seen animals wounded at short range.
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<br>We already agreed that the odds of non-ideal bullet placement go up at long range, at least on targets. The mathematical probablility doesn't change when the cross hairs move from paper to venison, so a wounded animal is more likely, at least statistically. Let's hope you can continue to beat those odds. That's what every shot is about, beating all the factors that favour a miss.
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<br>Regarding experience and your mention of bowhunting and short range hunting, etc. don't assume you are talking to a bunch of barefoot boys with a broken stocked .22. Fellows who post here include military range instructors, guys who guide for dangerous game, market hunters who observed cartridge and bullet performance on thousands of big game animals, and a lot more shooting experiences. I'm an amateur among these guys but I've taken big game with weapons from an Osage Orange bow to magnum rifles, at ranges from 4 inches to about 800 yards, from Mexico to the Yukon border and most places between. Around such a crew, it is usually wiser to say something like, "This is what I have observed, and this is my experience," rather than, "This is how it is."
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<br>I'm probably going to drift out of this. It's become corrosive, an utter waste of time, and the issues are getting belaboured. You guys have your minds set in concrete on a few subjects, including how open minded you are. I think I understand where you are coming from, Darryl, and wish you good shooting.
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Darryl, looks like we are both online and I'm at least one post behind in my response. I killed a spike bull elk at about 800 yards that was getting away from another fellow who had wounded it in a hind leg by shooting farther than he should have. The bull hid on my side of some brush and was standing still when I shot. Apparently he was hiding from the echo of previous shots. I missed my first shot and hit him through the heart on the second, more fluke than skill at least in the precise bullet placement. I was just trying for his rib cage. I would not have shot at the bull had he not been wounded. I am sorry to dissappoint you that I cannot tell a story of firing boxes of ammo at a bull I knicked at ten feet and chopped bullets at all the way to 800 as he fled in terror. I wish you the best on every long odds shot you take, and I will assume the best on any shot till results prove otherwise.

Speaking of bets, here's one for you guys to think about.
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<br>This is not a trick in any form. It is just a proposition bet that requires some thinking.
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<br>Use a standard poker, 52 card deck. Standard poker rules, 5 card draw, draw as many cards as you want on your turn(up to 5, of course). Suits do not count. That is spades are not higher than clubs, etc.
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<br>2 people playing, play 2 hands, using either a real or an imaginary deck, other person goes first and gets to specify his initial 5 cards. Second person then gets to specify his initial 5 cards from whatever is left out of the 47 remaining cards in deck. First person draws or stands pat. If he draws he gets to specify his cards. Second person draws or stands pat, same deal, he can specify his cards out of the remaining "live" cards. That is, cannot specify cards that have been discarded. Then, the best hand wins. Then the second player goes first, etc. I am the second player in this example and I will win at least one of the hands, and probably, but not certainly, tie the other. How do I do it?

Okanagan
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<br>What I was refering to when I said I have seen animals hit at short range run but, not at long range, happened to me.
<br>I hit several deer through the heart and lungs while short range hunting and after they got hit and fell down they jump back up and ran as far as 125 yards.
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<br>With the identical hit, I have NEVER had that happen to me while longrange hunting. They just lay down and stay.
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<br>Just want you clear that up to you.
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<br>By the way, did the elk drop when you hit it at 800 yards through the heart??
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<br>Darryl Cassel

IF,,
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<br>Yup I am edumakated.. I are a kolege graduit..
<br>I may not spell as correctly as you, I may not enunciate as artistic as you... I do not and will not ever, in my lifetime or anyother ever envy you.. You must have alot of time on your hands to reply as completly as you did.. I only wish I had that much time. but I do not feel you warrent that much of my time. If and only if you have somthing educated or inquisitive to ask me I will respond. Other than that I wish to speak with you in person or over the phone about this. I am more of a hands on type person. I have not told a lie nor will I begin to. I have no reason to lie. I feel the need not to earn your respect nor will I lose sleep over it. Your respect does not motivate me or is somthing I need. We will most likely never agree on anything and that fine, we all need opposition to keep us in check.
<br>The way you disagree tends to be disrespectful. Of all things you started name calling...

Darryl,
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<br>The spike bull I hit through the heart at about 800 gave no reaction that I could detect at all. I had bolted home another round and was beginning my squeeze for another shot when he suddenly reared straight up on his hind legs and fell over backwards. Never saw one do that before or since. I have had one heart/lung hit elk go down unmoving, and then wake up. Meanwhile I had closed the 125 yards to the animal and stopped him, or I think he would have run off, though not far.
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<br>As you probably have observed, many times you can tell where an animal is hit by his reaction, but not always. I've seen a lot of heart shot deer leap straight up in the air when hit. Some fall where they land from the leap, and others run. Animals hit well in my experience have run from 30 to 75 yards if they run at all, rarely farther. I hunt steep and I've had many roll a lot farther than they ran. (I've tracked some more marginally hit deer, one of mine and some for others, up to 3/4 mile.) One of the oddest ones in my experience was a young 4x4 mule deer that I shot though the heart at about 40 feet. He was standing looking at me, not tense at all as I came into his view. He dropped like a stone in his tracks and didn't twitch, the only heart shot animal I've seen do that.
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<br>Elk are the toughest critter I've seen take a hit in terms of reaction. Many of them do not give any indication of a hit even when it is mortal, and I think a good many hunters hit elk that they think they have missed, because the animal shows no reaction. A mature 6x6 bull I hit at almost an exact 100 yards did not even flinch at the sound. He gave no reaction whatsoever. The 180 grain Swift A-Frame angled through him from left front shoulder through both lungs, destroying one and about half of the other. The bull looked carefully around as if he was trying to locate the source of the shot, but did not show any indication of a hit, nor move a step. I was shooting from a rest over a big log and when he turned his head I put the second round right behind his ear, a shot I would not have taken had I not been sure he was dead on his feet. I just didn't want him to start moving and roll into the canyon. He rolled down nearly 100 yards anyway.
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<br> My most recent bull, a 6x6, I double lunged at 40 yards from a rest as he walked past. He quick stepped once, paused a beat, then continued walking with no sign of injury. He was in a burned forest and I lined up on the next good opening but he fell dead before he walked that far. I didn't measure but he walked somewhere between 25 and 40 feet, not yards, from the point where he was hit. I've had more elk NOT react to a hit than those that have reacted.
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<br>A fellow I know hit a bull elk in the belly (I think) with a 30-30 at a little over 400 yards. I surmise belly because though everyone was sure he had missed the bull, one guy said the bull humped his back before he walked calmly out of sight into the trees. Nobody was even going to go up there and look. I found dark blood going into the tree line and tracked the bull for eight hours, when we heard a pack of wolves jump him ahead of us and pull him down.
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<br>In the Columbia River Valley both ways from Golden, B.C., there is a magnificent swamp full of game that is a mile wide in places. On dry years, elk are in the swamps during elk season. I found three dead bulls on one day while wading for elk in the swamp, all hit by gunners shooting from either the railroad track that parallels the river, one of the roads, or maybe the hills. They were shooting at elk way too far away in the swamp. The bullet wounds were usually about in the middle of the elk, broadside, no exit. You would have probably killed, and collected, those bulls, Darryl, at the ranges fired. But how many guys who bang away at long range....
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<br> Those aren't the only such dead game I've found. I killed one wounded bull to put him down, not fit to eat, that had been hit by two jacketed .22 calibre bullets. The bad one was in the paunch and the bull could not have survived that wound more than another week or so. The other bullet was in the shoulder, at range so long it had penetrated about two inches and the pointed nose of exposed lead had mashed just barely flat, almost as large as the .22 diameter of the bullet. That's long range, minimal cartridge, and poor bullet placement, three goofs for that shooter on one animal.
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<br>By the way, my intent wasn't to be mean spirited when I wrote the satire post repeating about not losing animals, but it may have come over that way. It is my impression of the sum of LR posts, and I got to laughing. Like Lincoln said, some of those are great to write but you should never send them.
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Wyowhisper:
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<br>I'll keep this short so you can follow it.
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<br>I am sorry to hear that you are a college graduate, more proof that the system is indeed in dire straits. Next time you pass by a dictionary, look up enunciate. They are something more than the modern equivalent of the Sears catalog, you know.
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<br>It is Monday, time to slow down on that bottle.
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Okanagan
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<br>Thanks for the information.
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<br>A 22 on an elk??? There are indeed slob hunters in every style of hunting.
<br>We always try to help the new LR hunter with caliber information so they are not trying to stretch the yardage with a particular calber that won't do the job. The caliber selection is key to the range we shoot.
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<br> My 338/416 Ridgy Improved with 300 gr MK bullets coming out of my 37" barrel at 3300 FPS has more energy left at 1000 yards then 300 Win mags with 180 Gr bullets have at 100 Yards. This is killing power at LR.
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<br>THat's the information I was looking for on your 800 Yard shot, he reared up and then dropped with a heart hit.
<br>I have seen this happen on one Bull in Colorado. A nice 5X5 hit through both shoulders (in excess of 1000 yards) reared up and walked on his hind legs about 4 or 5 steps and then rolled down the mountain 100 yards through the oak brush. Several others just simply dropped when hit. Had one take the shock of the bullet in the side and the whole body just quivered. It backed up 3 steps and laid down at which time we put another shot into it. When hit through one shoulder or both, they drop like a ton of bricks and that would be with the long or short range shooter. We have taken about 25 elk now in Colorado and I hope we can make it another 25 before I can't do it any longer.
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<br>The animals react different at all ranges but, when hit at LR they don't run at all like some may think. I hate to keep repeating that but, it's true. I think you saw that in your heart hit elk at 800 yards.
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<br>I appreciate the information on your shots and have seen simalarities also.
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<br>Thanks again
<br>Darryl
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Damn, monday already and I was just getting started. Well at leat it is almost thurs. so I can go get my welfare check....
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<br>I know what enunciate means. It was a joke, because your trying so hard to say the correct things and use correct sentences. Your brain is full of that brown stuff on the ground..
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<br>Sorry about my spelling. I usually had one of my secrataries do it. I am getting better at this typing thing though.
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<br>Keep throwing out your insults. At least you found somthing your good. Like I said before your good at running your mouth.
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<br>Just curious have you ever hunted in the mountains, or have you always hunted tweety birds and shot big game over bait and feed?
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<br>If crap were snow Texas would be a ski resort and the tallest mountian would be at your place.
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<br>Have a great day... and by the way I'll be in Charlotte NC at the sport and travel show thurs thru Sunday if any of your buddies or yourself would like to continue this.

Wyowhisper:
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<br>I'm glad you can still attempt humor, and that they are going to let you out on your own soon. Luckily, sounds like you won't be driving.
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<br>Have a nice trip, and study your definitions, communication is an important skill that you have not mastered yet.