Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 45acp or .357?

jwp, your creds are established and I certainly wouldn't argue them.

I was re-directing the question back to R. Your creds are hands-on, his I'm not so sure about.


George

Sorry, I did not properly understand

Agreed, any bullet sheds energy going through flesh, some just do it faster than others....
A bullet strike is an inelastic collision, true dat, but when it hits flesh, isnt flesh an elastic medium...?


Mannn we could gack this one to death..



Cool bears and moose BTW...

The only way to positively stop a bear is to break one front shoulder or possibly both front shoulders. I don't think the handgun rounds we are talking about for bear defense are capable of doing that. Certainly a solid will do that better than an expanding bullet.

If you really want to see what you can do against a bear with a hand gun get some old tractor or truck tires about the frontal size of a bear and have some one roll them down a hill at you and see if you can hit the tires.

Better yet if you have the space fix up a motorized target with about the frontal area of a bear and shoot at it as the target charges you. The target needs to be at a distance a bear will charge you and at the speed of a charging bear which is about 35 to 40 MPH.

If you can hit them on a regular basis you are go to go.

Barnes use to have a video on the type of motorized set up I'm talking about for teaching dangerous game shooting but I don't see it any more. It was a very educational video.

I think if I were a young man today I would set up a range for the express purpose of teaching dangerous game shooting.

Energy is transformed into other forms of energy, mostly thermal in an inelastic collision. Yes flesh is elastic in nature.That is why a high velocity bullet will cause cavitation in flesh. Also that is why high velocity with the increased hydraulic pressure is capable of leaving much larger wound channels than the bullet it self's diameter would indicate and why the large bores and large me plat bullets in handguns are so desirable, because of a lack of velocity

An excellent book on handgun terminal performance. I highly recommend it

My sentiments exactly...

Might hafta check that book out as it looks like it covers all bullet types...most quantified work on the subject usually deals with anti-personnel loads and statistics...

As I keep saying this is an argument that will go on until the last male dies which is better expanding bullet or solid bullet.

The expanding bullet guys have their theories and math formulas based on physics.

The solid bullet guys have their theories and math formulas based on physics.

The one thing we can all agree on is that animals have died from both types of bullets.

The key is to reach the vitails as long as the vitails are reached the outcome is the same no matter which bullet is chosen. The bullet that expands the least will penetrate deeper and allow more shot angles that will still reach the vitails and that is their advantage

common sense tells me, "if you poke a hole in the vitals it dies, if you poke a larger hole in the vitals it dies faster, maybe..."

The problem is that wounds are not always proportionate to the size of the porjectile used.

Because of pistols low velocity I am inclined to go with a larger caliber, but my own tests have shown that the 45acp does not penetrate 100% of the time against bone (especially steeply angled shots) due to it's low velocity. If penetration is the name of the game on hard objects (i.e. bone, wood, metal) I would go 9mm over 45acp. The 357 is a step above both of these cartridges in the penetration department.

I think penetration is the most important factor when choosing a handgun cartridge/bullet because handguns generally are vulnerable to underpenetration due to a lack of velocity and poor sectional density. So it all comes back to "if you poke a hole in the vitals, it dies"

The 25, 380acp, 38, and 45acp all suffer from poor penetration on solid objects. I think about 950-1000 fps with a decent sd bullet is the minimum for reliable penetration against heavy bone, wood, metal, etc and steep angle shots against hard objects.

If I had a choice between 22lr and 45acp for personal protection I would honestly take the 22lr, even if you think that is a ridiculous statement, because I know I can break a rib/skull at a steep inclined angle and reach the vitals.

With most bullets in the 45 ACP penetration is limited, but the Buffalo Bore 255 grain hard cast at 960 FPS is a VERY good penetrator out of the 45 ACP

I had never heard of that load, but that sounds like fantastic performance out of the 45acp!

Can't aregue that. Balance is the key to life.

Check it out. http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214

Advertised velocity is 980. I chrono'ed them in my gun at 960, good enough for me

Good stuff, makes me wish I didn't sell my 45acp. That's a mean round and would be fun to hunt with.

With all due respect, the only way to stop a bear is to put a bullet in the brain or the spine, CNS is the only true 100% stopper shot.

Bullets tend to put a hole in a shoulder blade, not shatter it into 100 pieces. That and a shoulder shot is a broadside shot, a bear doesn't charge you broadside, he charges you straight on.

The real frame of mind should be, in a charge from a wild animal I should only count on being able to get off one shot, and what round would either do enough damage to stop, turn or subtantially damage the bear as to let me get off another shot. Oh, and you also shouldn't assume you'll make a perfectly aimed shot, due to dynamics of the situation.

Spot on !!!!!!

You are right a charge would be front on and the chance of breaking one or both shoulders from front would be slim or none at all.

However, shooting a charging bear in the head probably would be just as hard.

Here's the videos I was looking for.

http://www.heymusa.com/http://www.heymusa.com/

I realize they are using double rifles not handguns but the videos of the moving target is the set up that's needed to practice shooting a charging bear. Shooting a moving target is tough. A bouncing and moving target is even worse. A friend of mine uses the rolling tire as a practice target because the tire moves and bounces as it rolls.

Scroll down to the bottom of the page for the videos.

I seriously doubt any bearsthat I've heard of in the last decade... But you can bet there has been tons & tons of 200lb feral hogs killed here in Texas alone with those loads, & that's not counting California or Florida. Heck, I've even killed one with my old marlin bolt action 22 mag

Read the question again.