Home Forums Gear Hunting Trucks and Four-Wheel Drives Diesel Performance Update

I've been looking at this again. I spoke to a Tech at Edge, a company that makes performance modules for GMs, Fords, and Dodges. These are not racing modules, they are designed for work trucks, street trucks, etc.

The most HP they offer right now is for the new Dodge Cummins. They say it adds 180 RWHP. The next is the GM at 150, then the Ford at 115. When you factor in all the baseline HPs, Dodge has the power advantage, Chevy is next, then the Ford, but they are all close. Also, their power figures tend to be conservative, many guys report a 180 HP gain from the GM, and I'm sure the Dodge makes more than 180.

However, the Allison is the best tranny, and a beefed Allison is the tranny of choice. He said they have already torn up a new Dodge auto trans, though he said it is way better than the old Dodge trans. He considers the new Dodge trans the next best. He said a big limit on the Ford's power is what it's tranny can hold.

Now, when you go to race applications, there are 200 HP programmers that can be stacked with other performance boxes, bigger turbos, lift pumps, and N20 that push these motors over 700 RWHP. 500 RWHP form a streetable Dmax is possible with the TTS HP programmer, but then the tranny needs beefed and you need two lift pumps and possible a bigger fuel inlet from the tank.

Among GM guys, the LB7--the first generation DMax--is a better engine than the LLY which came out in 2004.5. The LLY gets worse mileage, makes less power when performance modules are added, and has had some overheating issues. The LB7s original concern was if an injector leaked it would leak fuel into the crankcase, and while that has happened, it hasn't happened anywhere near what folks thought. Initially GM was replacing all 8 injectors if the suspected an injector problem, but it turns out the majority of the injectors had no problems. I assume this is why GM extended the factory warranty on the Injectors for 2001 and 2002 LB7s to 200,000 miles.

GM has introduced a 6 spped Allison for 2006, and the last quarter of 2006 they are bumping the Dmax to 360 HP and 650 ft lbs, still down 110 HP from what you can with a Edge Module.

Ford is coming out with a 6.4 Liter PSD in 2006 or 2007. I am not sure what Dodge is doing.

Umm Blaine, just to clairify, by "best tranny" you mean best automatic tranny, right? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Is there any other kind? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yup, I always thought that Auto trannies were for city women & those few men with out the basic coordination to shift a Manual tranny & use a clutch at the same time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Personally I prefer the 6 speed manual tranny in my '02 F350 crew cab 4x4 7.3 psd pick up to anybody's pick up equipped with an automatic tranny. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
--Ken

With the amount of torque that is now available in these rigs (1000-1200 ft lbs), do you think your left leg is strong enough to push in a clutch that can hold that? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I do agree that if you have an Ford or Dodge built prior to 2003, you do NOT want the auto trans.

I've been bulking up my left leg for years driving my '56 Chevy. The clutch in it is 2750# static pressure, and 3600# when shifting...all actuated by poorly built mechanical linkage (fortunately I've learned a thing or two about fabrication in the 15 years since I put the 4-speed in it).

I neglected to thank you for posting this topic in the first place. Good info.

I thought somebody would find it interesting. BTW, are they using hydraulic clutches on these new rigs? If so, I don't think it would be so hard to get one strong enough.

All the ones that I've seen use hydraulic master & slave cylinder to actuate the pressure plate either directly via a hydraulic throwout bearing or indirectly via a clutch fork. It sure beats mechanical linkage. Although I was driving an old (maybe 1960?) 2T Dodge around Tacoma one time and the clutch quit working due to a leak depleting the master cylinder. Fortunately it was late enough at night and I was close enough to home that I just left it in gear and ran a few stop lights.

Blaine - Sir, saw a magazine - Diesel Power or something like that - they had full boat trucks built by Banks - Dodge, Chev and Ford. As to the tranny issue on the Dodge - banks said it was a poor converter design or something like that (I don't have the magazine - leafed thru it ar B&N) they offered an upgrade to handle the 500 hp and 1000 lbs of torque (IIRC) but basicaly Banks said the Cummins could handle something like 35psi of boost followed by chev at 30 and Ford at 25/27 IIRC.

You might want to scrounge around for that rag - seemed pretty good - devoted to only diesel pick-ups and 4x4's

As to the clutch on a 1200 lbs torqued monster - no problem - big rigs been doing it for awhile - what sucked for me was shifting a 15 speed - thats a lot of rowing but in a personal vehicle - i much prefer to row the gears myself. (IMHO if the car is advertised as performance - auto shouldn't be an option <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> )

The clutches for the big rigs are stout enough, but will they fit in a pickup chassis?

Eventually, there will be many beefing components for all these trannies........

Blaine,

Saw that on the net about the new DMax - kicking out 360 hp and 650lbs of torque. When's it gonna end. Pretty soon these truck will all be powertrains with rearends the size of a freightliner.

[bleep]'s 6.4 will hit the streets in 07. The prelim reports that I have heard on the new(same) engine is a min of 360hp and 650 lbs. I've read the Ford geeks are gonna ramp it up to beat the DMax. It's also supposed to have a beefed up torqueshift. We'll see.

I couldn't be happier with my 03 6.0. The new 6.4 is a bigger bored 6.0 with dual turbos.



Mac

Factory dual turbos. The war keeps on.

Interestingly, they still haven't caught up to the chip makers..........

"Interestingly, they still haven't caught up to the chip makers.......... "

sure they have - they, however, provide a warranty and must make allowances for the idiot drivers.

the dual turbos supposedly is to help with low end grunt. The interesting thing is going to be how well they hold up to the 2007 emissions controls. Plan on less fuel mileage, less performance and more headaches.

The factories are not even close to the chip makers. A stock Dmax typically dynos 240 RWHP. Add the Edge "Hot Juice w/Attitude" for the Duramax (advertised at 150 HP) and you are at 420-440 RWHP on the dyno. The Allison takes about 60 HP to run, so a "crank to crank" comparison would be 480-500 HP for the chipped Dmax and 360 HP for the late '06 model.

Also, the "Attitude" monitors tranny slippage at a sampling rate greater than the TCM and will start defueling when the tranny starts to slip, preventing serious damage. Now a guy can indeed override the tranny safety feature, and if he does so with a un-beefed Allison, he is indeed an idiot. However, $3000 tranny upgrade and an $800 chip puts these trucks well beyond what the factory will ever offer, and it does so safely and reliably.

The Ford and Dodge chips provide similar power increases.

i thought guns were getting to be expensive toys <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

woofer

and how long can you run the "chipped" engine with a max load at full power before it starts to defuel? I am familiar with the chips and also with EGT. Sure you can run a 180hp chip but you are not going to run it at that output level for very long before you run into EGT problems. Melt a piston running a chip and see who pays for the damage. Won't be the manufacturer and won't be the chip maker........you play you pay.

Perhaps you are not as familiar with the newer technology diesels and/or the Edge chip. I leave my chip set at the 90 HP level (actual HP increase is probably more) for daily driving. It never even hits the EGT limit at this setting, nor has it ever put the tranny in limp mode. I have the EGT warning set for 1350 and have defueling set to begin at 1400. I also have it set to defuel all TCC locked shifts. The defueling that does occur at shifts is barely noticable, and it is a very good thing because it allows this increase power without harming the tranny. Alos, the chip will defuel anythime it sense tranny slippage, which is something I have never experienced.

Now for towing "heavy" the chip should be set at the 60 HP, "light" towing at the 75 HP. If I want to mess around, I set the chip at the 125 HP level, but return it to the 90 HP setting after I finish messing around. At the 125 HP level the defueling between shifts is again not noticable, but it will hit 1350 degrees EGT during a WOT run at the 125 HP level and set off the alarm. I back off at this point, but if I didn't the chip would do it for me. When I upgrade the tranny, I'll step up the chip.

Now, there are guys who rountinely drag race these trucks, many putting down well over 600 HP at the rear wheels. I have seen some 700 HP+ dyno sheets, and most of these trucks are street driven as well. So far, I haven't come across anyone who has put a hole in a piston or has had any other catastrophic engine failure. There may have been some and there will be eventually. Hoever, the DMax is a stout engine, as one would expect form a comapmy who has been building diesels for over 60 years and has something like 13 million units in service.

The weakest link in the DMax are the tie rods and stock tranny. Guys have trashed those. Also, one guy twisted a drive shaft in half. The biggest headache these guys have had is getting their "stack" of power boxes to work optimally. However, for guys like me who uses the Edge box on a non-competition truck--keeping with the safety features engaged, durability and reliability is excellent, and the substantial increase in power is very nice.

And through all this I have yet to talk to anyone who owns a new diesel, regardless of make, who complains about lack of power when towing.....

Diesels will only hurt pistons for 2 reasons. Mechanical failure (overheating, hydrolock etc) or stuck open injectors causing pistons to melt. They cannot run lean like a gasoline engine can, so defueling won't hurt them. They simply slow down when less fuel is injected.

badger

not sure what you mean by overheating, excessive EGT will melt a piston, not concerned with being too lean like a gasser.

Blaine,
Yes, I've seen some huge numbers being put down by modded diesels. All I'm saying is they don't put down those huge numbers for an extended period of time without damage. I have seen Dmax, Cummins and Pstroke engines come through the shop with serious damage. Most have had stacked boxes, tuners, chipped, propane, nitrous, methanol injection and any combination of the above. I also know of unhappy Edge customers. You can't be everything to everyone. The factory has to put out what they can reasonably expect to be reliable for the whole spectrum of drivers.

I bet you also have intake and exhaust mods to go along with that edge box and drive accordingly. Entirely different circumstances than running in 120hp mode with stock intake and exhaust, pulling 10,000 lbs of trailer up a 6% grade with no concern for EGT.

I will agree the Izuzu is a great engine, so is the Cummins and Powerstroke. All have strengths and weaknesses. None are indestructible.

I have a 4" muffler, which has about 75% of the EGT reduction as the full 4" system. However, if I were to start a lot of heavy towing, I'd go with the full 4" exhaust.

I put a K&N Aircharger system on the truck when I first bought it, then replaced it with an Amsoil in the stock box, though I did open up the stock box a bit. This mod was entirely unnecessary, as dyno tests have shown there is no HP difference--at least up to the 150 HP Edge box, regardless of the intake system. They even tried it with no air filter at all. I am now back to a stock intake.

Tests run by Testand Corp showed the K&N flowed around one percent more than a AC Delco paper air filter when both were clean, but the K&N, Amsoil, Uni, etc all hit 10" of restriction in 20-30 minutes while it took the factory paper filter over an hour to reach 10" of restriction. This was a controlled test performed on a $285,000 machine. the factory paper filtered better as well. The advnatages of paper are widely known among heavy diesel equipment operators who run their equipment in harsh, dusty conditions.

I still have a K&N air filter, an Amsoil air filter, and a Uni Airfilter put away in a box somewhere...............

Anyway, like you mentioned, the key is in driving accordingly. I think the guys racing know what they are doing and should know the consequences. However, for those who have daily driver trucks and do things like set their chip on 120 HP and tow hard with no thought to EGT, well, perhaps they should do more research first.

All this reminds me of giys just starting in drag racing, who would willingly spend money to add HP, but were reluctant to spend money to build in durability and reliablility. I remember one guy who was pushing 700 HP out of his big block, but was unwilling to spend $300 for a spool and $400 for axles. I can't tell you how many times he shelled out his welded spider gears............