Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Discussion of Bird Dog Breeds

No arguments or pissing matches, please...

and i'll own up to being both low-rent, and lucky, in bird dogs...

most of my best performing dogs were free, or nearly so. but then, my house probably cost less than most guys' pickup trucks... (and my pickup probably cost less than some guys dogs )

i'm not ignorant of breeding, and it's relationship to health, behavior, or ability issues, but like i said, i've been lucky... and i feel like i can fairly well judge dogs when i get a chance to observe them...

all of the dogs i've raised and trained have been flushers or retrievers. my last retriever seemingly taught himself to point. this might have been in response to my own walking speed, which my buddies refer to as being "as fast as a speeding fencepost"...

i have hunted over most of the more common bird dog breeds, though... this would include the pointer, the english setter, the shorthair, draahthaar, brittany, vizla, weimar, labs, chessies, and springers/cockers...

i'd like to hear about different breeds regarding their family/home tendencies... my last dog that was strictly a kennel dog, was also the dog that i paid the most for. she had the heart and talent of a champion. and she was stolen while i was at work, the week before Christmas, during her first season...

the best family dog that we had was a female chessie. came to us as free as dirt... she was as healthy, behaviorally stable, and as exuberant a hunter as any guy could want. and she was the ultimate family dog... my oldest son learned to walk while hanging onto her lip...
rio was polite, if reserved around strangers... and still protective towards the family... she's the reason my wife is agitating for another chessie now...

best bird dog i ever owned was the yellow pointing lab mentioned above... we had him at the same time as rio, the chessie. they were a great pair...

to me, shorthairs are high strung and spastic, anywhere but in the field... most are huge runners who are hard to break from self hunting, once they're a ways from their handler...
But the all time best dog i ever hunted behind was a shorthair... she was a 3 year old pound dog when a buddy got her... by the time she was 5 he was guiding with her. she was spayed, and 8 years old when a client wrote a check for $10,000 for her... my buddy turned down the check... she hunted til she was 13 years old...

draahthaars are great bird dogs, but simply are not family dogs... at least the ones that i've known...

weimars much the same as draahthaars, and it's not that they're poorly behaved around kids, but that they are so attached to their hunter that they can't take being separated... one buddy couldn't go to work for 8 hours without the dog sitting at the window and yowling it's head off. his wife and kids about went crazy...

i've hunted over some very good english setters... but they picked up burrs like velcro...

and i've hunted over some great pointers... really great pointers... but i wouldn't consider any of them a family dog...

and the Vizla... the best i hunted over was a pretty fair dog... but most of them haven't impressed me with nose, ability, or drive...

please tell me about your dog experiences as relates to both hunting and family friendliness...

I had a shorthair "Tango". He was a spaz in the house, but could go all day in the field.

As much as I loved that dog, he had too much energy for my wife and I. We both work and it wasn't fair to us or the dog to not work with him as much as I had initially hoped. He had seizures all his life and I miss him something fierce.

I've learned from him and I go more for temperment than instinct. After all, I live with the dog a whole lot more than I hunt with him.

Hard to beat a good English Springer out of pure hunting blood.

Energetic in the field, but most calm down in the home. Great with family. Fit in the truck comfortably.

If flushers fit into your bird hunting they rank at the top.

Yes, you have been lucky if freebees have consistently turned into good hunters.

Without reguards to breeds..........some dogs hunt.........some dogs don't..........................

Best of luck....................

really like your brittany pics on the pic thread, battue... did you hunt the little cocker with your brits? always wondered how that might work out...

my yellow pointing lab, when hunted with my distinctly non-pointing chessie, simply reverted back to his flushing ways... the next time i would hunt him alone, he would go right back to pointing...

a friend of my dad's, who field trialed pointers, insisted that there was no such thing as a pointing lab. after hunting behind pete, he allowed that there was surely one pointing lab...

i raised one springer spaniel for myself, in high school... my dad always kept a pair and bred the occasional litter...

i'm thinking of a pointing breed, actually... i was promised a female pup out of a W.P. Griffon litter a year or so ago, but most of the litter was stillborn, and i lost out...

i have several friends who are sold on brittanies... but they sure cuss them in the field... i don't need the stress....
one friend, who has a ton of money invested in his current dogs, i just about won't hunt birds with anymore... it isn't fun with him being so stressed out....

and the best brittany he ever raised cost him, IIRC $150... that was 20 years ago, but still cheap in our area for a bird dog...

Right now I have a shorthair, an english setter, and a lab. My dogs live in the house with us, or in my camper or fifth-wheel, depends on where we are and what we are doing. The shorthair and the setter are about retired, 15 and 13 years, the lab is just 3. They have all got along well with folks, mostly I think because of the socializing they got around my family. I bought all these dogs from people I knew.

These dogs and every other dogs I have hunted over have a different hunting style and personality. The shorthair was a big runner (when she could still run) but we shot a bunch of birds over her, you just had to keep up. She will hold birds as long as the birds will hold.

The setter in his younger days was as good a pheasant dog as I have ever had. He seemed to figure out early when to hold a point and when to move. But he sometimes needs a tickle from the e-collar to remind him he is hunting with me.

The lab is showing a lot of promise, hunts with me and for me as well as any dog I have had.

My idea of the ideal kennel is a big running pointer who will hunt close when you ask him to and a close working flusher when the cover gets so heavy you can't keep track of the pointer

Heaven forbid, I just heard Abby and Duffy groan in unison.!!!!

They were both English Springers.

No doubt Abby had some long legs for a Springer. Duffy was a bull Springer if there ever was one.

Toby and Sam: English Cockers.

All my flushers have hunted with pointing dogs. They have been trained to stop at the sound of the beeper or whistle. They will stand and watch the action. However, at the sound of the gun, they are off for a retrieve.

I have two Vizslas and although I can't comment on hunting with them as this will be my and their first season, I can comment on them as a family dog. They are high energy and can be destructive if allowed. Very smart, almost too smart as they think about what you are commanding. They are the "velco dog". If you are sitting in a chair, they are coming on your lap. So far, happy with bred. I will let you know this fall about the hunting.

I can't imagine being owned by a better companion, hunter, or family dog than a GSP. Wish I had room for at least five.

My apologies to the memory of both of them...

No big deal. They had forgiving hearts and you were not the first to think Abby may have been a Brit.

my dad's last male springer, Doc, was referred to by some as a "bull springer"... the only truly mean springer i've ever known of... Dad never did breed him and had him cut when he was still a young dog...
had a mean streak from the day he was weaned...

My male springer, Gabe, was a big happy go lucky rascal out of the same (but later) breeding that produced Doc... but never a mean bone in him, and he was a heap of bird hunting fool...
When i joined the army i left Gabe with my brother, who had 2 young boys at the time... they were just toddlers when Gabe went to stay with them, but he hunted long enough for both of those boys to shoot over...
I actually had plans to reclaim Gabe after i left the service, but it would have been a fighting matter... And that dog was awful attached to those boys...

Duffy didn't have a mean bone towards people, but took no crap from other dogs....Until a medium sized Beagle taught him different.

There is a lesson in there somewhere.

like a lot of other shorthairs, then...
in my better days i hated trying to keep up with them...
and my better days were far enough back that i can amend my stories as it suits me, as many of the witnesses have passed on...

i reckon most meet the beagle one time or another...

His first tussel was with a groundhog that tore him up pretty good. From that day on he had a hatred for them and never lost another encounter.

Every so often he would get loose. He would come back and deposit a dead Grounhog on the porch, and if you were not there to make him come he would be gone again. The process would repeat for a couple days until he was filthy, hungry and wore out. Never saw it, but I think he was going into the tunnels and digging them out.

if he could out dig a groundhog, you likely could have rented him out as a backhoe!!!

some roads we only get to travel once...

I know all dogs are individuals, but I'm hard pressed to recommend one for in the house, and I've tried English Setters, GSPs, Brittneys. I have a Belgian Sheepdog now, and after two years I'm pretty happy. Definitely not a birddog, but I just use the one's at the "plantation", 'cause they ain't no wild birds around here no more. He hangs with me on my hiking/camping trips really well. All the birddogs would take off, eat the camp food when you weren't looking, or in some way make the trip unbearable. I just decided that for me, an urban physician who loves to bird hunt in Georgia, the best place for a bird dog is in someone else's kennel, although the mystic/romance is not lost on me at all, Lord knows I've tried to make it work.
Don

Hahahahah, while posting that last entry, my Sheepdog was mauling one of the kids tennis shoes.....whadda ya gonna do?
Don

Wirehaired Pointing Griffon...wonderful family dog and amazing versatile hunter.

it'd be cool to hear of your experience... this is a breed that i've always craved owning....

friends who own brits, setters, and pointers often pick at some other breeds about being ground hounds, or ground scenting... to them, if a dog isn't moving at full speed, with his head up in the wind, there's a problem...

and they believe, with some justification, that the dog that covers the most ground will find the most birds...
such dogs often miss birds, though... i was just going out at mid-day on a piece of family ground when i had the yellow pointing lab.
as i got there 2 guys were leaving who had just hunted it with a pair of english setters... they informed me, matter of factly, that the ground had been hunted, and that i would do better to move on and hunt somewhere else...
i was still uncasing my shotgun when pete went on point... i walked over and busted a rooster while they watched....

i can appreciate style in a bird dog... but not enough for him to race past close birds that are easy pick ups for a more thorough dog...
the buddy mentioned above who has the brits is among the most adamant... he has no time, or patience to hunt over a lab...
but he'll fuss with 2 electronic collars and bust his ass to keep track of his brits... and come home mad even with a limit of roosters...

despite that, there's at least a fair chance that i'll wind up with a brit... they are everywhere, and it seems that they are more of a buyers market then with breeds like the Wirehaired Pointing Griffon... hate to be low rent sometimes, and i'm a bit old to be saddled with a dog that i'm not happy with, but i have seen some good brits, both hunting wise, and around the house...
they started out as a peasants dog... could be that's the way their mojo runs....

Brits make good bird dogs and off-season buddy dogs....course I'm prejudiced...my only and only bird dog was a Brit....

pics of him, ingwe??? love to see them...

was he a close worker or a lined out runner? i've seen a very few brits that hunted like i'd like them to... that is quartering out to around 75-100 yds, and closer if the cover is tight...

field trialling, imo has hurt the breed by concentrating on the big running typr that can compete in their game...
at the other end of the spectrum there's a few who are not much more than boot wipers in the field. if they quarter at all, it's just from one boot to the other...

i hear talk of the french bred imports being a better foot shooting dog, but there goes any aspiration to remain a low-rent guy, if you buy one...

Good hunters tend to throw good hunters. Doesn't mean you have to pay large amounts of cash, although that can be a safer bet.

Two hunters that have proven dogs can couple them up and the resulting pups can be a steal at a bargain price.

That being said, just taking the first xyz breed that is offered can lead to disappointing results.

Knowing your stock, regardless of price, is where one should be looking.

I will take a well-bred GSP over about anything, & the right ones are far from hyper. My first 2 were so off the wall hyper-run to hear the wind whistle- I almost didn't get another GSP, but I researched long & hard, got my foundation boy Buck & never looked back.
They hold up all day in the field in warm temps were Labs & Chessies won't, cover ground to suit the terrain (at least mine do.) I guide with mine and they will hunt plenty close when I want them to -cant have them a mile out guiding, yet they do well in field trials as well.
We waterfowl hunt them & they do as well as any retrieving breed as well.
These are my youngsters(the oldster is in there too) at my shop, they have the run of it, I could never have 5 high strung dogs of any breed running about all day while I am trying to groom, let alone jumping all over clients as they come in.


Snap and Nitro, the 1 YO's in a crate, door is always left open, they go in it by choice.

If I couldn't have a GSP, I would have a good field English Setter or possibly a Viszla.

johnw this one worked according to the cover, tight in thick stuff, wide open in the wide open!
She was a good gun dog, by no means great, but I didnt know how to train then, she didnt come from hard core lines, but I lost only one bird in the 11 years we hunted together....



And her with a bud on another grouse hunt....





Yeah...we can shoot grouse with a rifle here....

GSP's are fine all around upland game dogs. But to say they can retrieve as good as a lab or chessie is just silly. But then again if you are only shooting puddlers sure they will get the job done fine. Where you will see the difference is in Big water and cold water. I would love to see a GSP hunt in nasty Boston Harbor or Southeast Alaska weather all day for sea ducks. Matter of fact I have seen some lab's decide to call it quits in that stuff.

As to the pointer's that hunt with a low head. If you don't mind it I guess there really isn't an issue with it. To me it is just not the way a pointer should hunt. High heads to me is were it is at in Pointers.

There aren't to many hunting breeds I don't like and see some sorta value to. Everyone has their favorites for whatever reason. My favorites are in no special order.

French Brittany's
English Pointer's
Chessie's
Springers
Cocker's

Never said they could handle bitter temps as well, but they can certainly handle big water & cold. I know several people who hunt waterfowl with them in the Boston Harbor & they hand tuff with the Labs.

I have yet to see a GSP out there in Boston Harbor not saying their haven't been any. I did see a guy try to bring one out in Casco Bay in Maine. The dog never touched the water. Owner claims that he has used him many times before and never had this happen. All I know is that dog didn't touch the water or a duck that day. Like I said GSP's are a great all around bird dog, but they are not going to beat a retriever at its game.

By the way like I said GSP's will get the job done as far as puddlers. All I see in that picture is puddlers and geese. Oh and a retriever!

Shame you never have been able to see a true versatile GSP in action, but I can gaurantee they hold their own! I live on Lake Erie and my dogs have NO issue with big water. I run with some retriever guys (Lab & Chessie) and can give you several references to contact, Bob Reckart of Amberwood kennels in OH is one, he has finished many FT champion Labs. I am not very into waterfowl/duck hunting myself, only some goose and upland, but work on Lake Erie training, I breed versatiles so prove my guys muster in the retrieving world as well as upland & know of several breeders who do the same.
This is an 11 mnth old pup in action, if he would cross 80 plus yds of water do you really think larger water will stop him?? LOL!! I will tape mine at the lake this week. Best I can do is bumper tho, nuttin in season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8g78WqCt1s&feature=related

the shorthair is there... ya gotta look...

Thanks John, I missed what he said.....that is Josh on the far right, the sire of my puppy in the above video. This is onviously a cold weather hunt.Josh is a Versatile Champion in NAVHDA, of which one thing required is up to a 30 minute duck search w/o handling. Google NAVHDA Utility and the Invitational, it is very stringent testing.

i have friends who run their dogs in navhda tests... and i've watched a couple of them run... i hunt over them as well, and have seen a couple of the dogs used very successfully for water work...

the best shorthair i've ever seen lived and died before navhda came to be...
she had the heart for anything, and was good on ducks and geese... but she was not built for, or coated for heavy, cold duty water work... i have no doubt that she would have killed herself trying if my buddy asked it of her... but when the water got vertical, he got the boat out to pick his ducks up...

he'll be 80 in a couple of months... his last shorthair died a couple of years back... he doesn't think he has the energy to raise another dog, although he still hunts extensively...

beautiful brit, ingwe...

why was she the last???

have a GSP i bought off a member here for $100 plus my gas to run down and pick him up in SD......great dog, definitely a family dog, he is hyper when not properly exercised but if my wifes dachshund was 55 pound she would be more trouble than he is....he loves the family, loves hanging out with the family chewing a bone or sleeping at our feet in the living room....

he and my wifes 3 pound mini dachshund are best friends, infact had to switch vets cause he got labeled as aggressive cause he was in the same room when the dachshund got a shot and yipped and he decided no one was gonna hurt his lil buddy and held a grudge on all future trips to the same office...the two dogs no longer go to the vet on the same trip and a new vet and there has been no further issues....

other than that he is a happy go lucky goofball that i couldnt imagine keeping outside ina kennel, he is most definitely a family dog....

I saw the GSP. The reference was to the ducks and the retriever was added to say that we see not just the GSP but a Retriever! Sorry it went over your head.

The GSP owners do not own the retriever also and I guarantee the GSP holds his own with the Lab. I have had a Lab breeder and a Chessie breeder joke if I have bred either into my GSPS, in fact the judge this weekend at the water test asked the same and he is a GWP guy.
If you are ever in PA be sure to look me up, be glad to show you some versatiles & BTW, my guys will even break ice to retrieve game off water & continue hunting, they aren't wussy dogs. <grin>

You can believe what you want but it is just nonsense that a GSP is as good or better then a retriever at duck hunting and retrieving. I am wondering just how many Surf Scoters and Eiders you have shot and had retrieved by your or anyone elses GSP. I have seen more then enough hunt test. Sorry that ain't sea duck hunting. Like I said over and over again GSP's are good all around bird dogs.

yeah... but ya gotta list all of the info on the rifle and the load...

I've had the pleasure to hunt behind a griffon a few times. Belongs to a buddy of mine's parents...why they have it, I have no idea as they are not realyl hunters. His father is grooming their farm for wild quail and are starting to see them after a few years but I am pretty sure this was a result of getting the dog and not exactly a combined effort. As a matter of fact my buddies mom shows the dog in best of breed shows or whatever beauty contests.

The dog has not had a day of field training, and not much obedience training but was a very sharp natural. She would range a little but mostly from puppy energy and lack of obedience. She has a great nose and a natural point and will hold all day. If they would get that dog just a tiny bit of training it would be some hunting dog. Great family dog for sure. Sweet as pie.

I'm trying to decide between a GSP and drathaar. Appreciate the reading. What is it about the drathaar that is not family oriented?

i have hunted behind a good many drahthaars, and there are several in (owned by) my extended family...
they tend to be snippy with strangers and children, and can be downright hostile...

i'm sure that there are exceptions, and a pair owned by my SIL's grand dad are among the notable exceptions... but even he does not allow young children around them without close supervision...

if i didn't have a 2 yr old grandson who loves dogs,and if they weren't such high dollar acquisitions (~$1100 here), i could see myself with a drahthaar...

but for the same money there are usually W.P.G.s available. i'd by one of them in a minute if i wasn't tighter than bark on a tree... ...

Thanks for the info on the Drathaar. I had not done much reading on their personalities I guess... must have been focused on reading about their hunting prowess. Their is a custom rifle builder named Roger Green that has some beautiful Drathaars I was recently drooling over but maybe I need to lead toward the GSP as children are yet in my future. A silver or charcoal pointing lab would also be on my short list.

a lot of drahthaar owners would probably call foul on what i said, and there are a lot of families that successfully raise drahthaars...

best advice i can give would be to cultivate an acquaintance with several guys who hunt them and;

A] get their opinion on the breed.

B] see if you can't arrange to hunt over the breed a few times.

the foundation stock for the drahthaar includes the stichelhaar... maybe some research into that breed would be enlightening, but sift what you find with a grain of salt...

here's one link that discusses the stichelhaar... stichelhaar

it describes the breed as "laid back", somewhat like a griffon. in fact, the stichelhaar and the griffon, despite their similarities, are not related...

the comments posted at the bottom of the stichelhaar link include some that decry the reputation of the drahthaar as aggressive, or "mansharp".
which simply emphasizes that aspect of their reputation...

I am acquainted with a couple of drahthaar breeders, and they select stock with an eye towards the breeds reputation and it's behavioral characteristics...
when the breed was formed though, all crosses were looked at only with the goal of hunting performance... and they certainly achieved that...

but the reputation for over aggressiveness still haunts them...

English Setters, English Pointers, GSPs, Labs, English Springers. Proven performers from which good stock is readily available is ones best bet for success.

Been awhile since Wirehaird Griffons, Drahthaars or any of the multipurpose European breeds have beat them in the trials that the majority of the best bird dogs can trace their ancestry too.

Of course if you are looking for a Dog to track down your Deer/Hog and come back with the flag in his mouth they may be an option, but I thought the thread was primarily directed towards bird dogs.

Then how much training/hunting are you actually going to do. It takes a large quantity of time, training and birds to make a dog. Pen raised training birds are not the real deal.

Rare for a great dog to be worked and trained only casually.

The GSP that you mention is predominant among the European multi-purpose breeds.

It's interesting that you don't view breeds such as the drahthaar or the griffon as bird dogs... The guys that I know who own or breed drahthaars use them only on birds.

Labradors, on the other hand, are used extensively, in this area, to trail wounded and lost deer.

I've raised 4 bird dogs of my own, and took in another from a friend in a divorce situation. I have yet to train with, hunt, or shoot any pen raised, or preserve bird.

Given that I live in north west Illinois where the ring necked pheasant is the predominant game bird, that necessarily means that my dogs see fewer birds than some, who either are hunted on preserves, or in areas better blessed with cover and game...

Still, my dogs have managed to impress a couple of hard core trialers and pro trainers with their desire, ability, and handle-ability...

I am blessed in that my property borders on private ground that, while closed to hunting, the manager allows me full access to include running/training dogs... I'd guess that at any given time, there are more pheasant on this neighboring property (some 600 acres) than on the dozen or so working farms that i hunt, collectively.

And it simply doesn't bother me that breeds like the griffon don't do well in open trials... Their reputation as a close working pointing dog is exactly what I'm seeking...

And if i should find and purchase a griffon pup, I'll be stepping into unknown territory. I've never hunted over or even seen one, except in pictures...

Love to try it...

just read this again... if your wife's dachshund weighed 55 pounds, it'd be suitable for tiger hunting... without any help from humans...

I like to play the odds when it comes to bird dogs. Less frustration. The GSP has become Americanized for so long that we have molded it to suit our needs. Pure Griffons and Drahthaars not nearly so. The ones I have seen were owned by those who wanted something different. They got there wish.

The breeding of the trials eventually filters down in most cases to us that are just hunters. It is too our benefit. I used to think, that if I wanted a pointer it would hunt close. Until I saw some good ones that pushed out and could hold their birds.
Not sure what your definition of close is, but anything 35yards and under I may as well have a flusher.

If I would have a pointer it would be something that had some snap and style when it pinned its birds. With the exception of the GSP, the few other Europeans I've seen look they are taking a nap while leaning up against a pole when they point. Admittedly I haven't seen all that many, but those impressed me little as far a being dynamic.

I often hunt my flushers with a couple good pointers that range at 75+yards on Ruffed Grouse. The ground has been pretty well covered by the time my dogs get to it. Those pointers leave little for the flushers to clean up on, except the retrieving. They are full of electricity when they say, "Come on up, I've done my job. Your turn."

My reference to pen birds was only in the context of it takes wild birds to make a great bird dog.

Ruffed Grouse in quantity have pretty much left my immediate area. For me to get into birds and enough open land I have at minimum a 2 hour drive each way. Doubt I will ever have another great Grouse dog like the ones I had in the past when it took 45min max to get into many birds. They trained on the real thing.

Good luck and wish you the best.

Addition: Best Dog I ever hunted over-until I had the Springer Duffy-for putting wild Pheasants up in front of the gun was a Beagle that didn't screw around.

yeah my children run in fear




he's just a big lap dog unless you're a cat
I can't say enough good about the VDD-GNA

kool dog... Beautiful kids....

craving more pics, and hunting tales....

this is one of my favorites... back in my black and white 35mm days all of 5 years ago



We're waiting our turn to cross the Salmon River to go kill some chuckar. It was a January hunt and the birds hadn't been hunted much (ever?) that season and there was lots of nice points. We, three of us, got 8 birds off one point.

what do you call the critter???

Sampson

check out his litter-mate stud of a brother

I like the trimmed up look...

some kinda serious looking dog...

I keep reading about all this talk of dogs other than GSP's on a bird dog forum, and I am a bit confused as to what for?

probably because most, like me in my 45 years of hunting behind bird dogs, have found so few shorthairs worth the time and effort...

a good shorthair is a great dog, though...

You said it right, if a good shorthair is a great dog, think what a great shorthair is?

all said in fun of course

I have hunted over some fine GSP's. None of them made me want one over a Brittany or English pointer. Nor has any turned my head and made me think of it as a duck dog. I personally would much rather have a good Springer over a GSP.

Quiet. If more would see a good English Springer do their thing the supply may dry up.

Hahaha.... Battue you know damn well those English Springs will flush birds out to about 30 yards. That is too far and without warning for the Pointer crowd!

I'm pretty happy with my wirehair, and she is great with the kids....My buddy has a Griffon and is to a good dog.....

When did I say they were not good dogs? There are a lot of good hunting breeds out there.

Shhh again. The without warning makes them often shoot on instincts and they end up hitting more.

If all this gets out I had better go get another Springer before the price goes up.

she around 5 pounds though you would never know it, she will take on any and all dogs that get near her.....other than my buddys' dogs......good friend also has a GSP and she plays with him just like she does Jake as well as my other friends boxer....

GSP's were originally intended to be a do it all hunting dog that was also good in the house with the family.....most the ones ive been around, other than the hyper puppy stage to an extent, are fine in the house with everyone....

My wifes parents bred wirehairs, so I have had a fair amount of field experience with them here and in SE Iowa. They are also NAVDHA members and used to hit the local circuit pretty hard with their dogs. In their breeding their wirehairs work slower and closer than most pointers, but they do not miss much. You have to work hard to break them from deer chasing, and a cat...any cat... is a dead cat if they get loose. They are pretty good with the family a couple of them are down right pathetic when their primary master leaves and they do not get to go with them. For dove season I carry my shotgun, but have limited out with as little as ten shots. Not because I am such a good wingshooter but because the wirehairs would find all of the cripples around the edge of the field and I would only have to top off the gamebag. Unlike most other pointers, wirehairs work cold water ducks, including my section of the frozen Chesapeake without complaint. They are not Chessy's but they will work right with several labs we have shared a bilnd with. I have shot doves, ducks (puddlers), geese, quail, grouse, pheasants, huns, and woodcock with them. They may not be "the best" at any of these tasks but they can do all of these things extremely well. Add blood trailing deer and their proective nature and they are a pretty good option for the hunter with a family and limited time to train. My brother inlaw has been hunting and living in SE Iowa for the last 30 years. Wirehairs are all he has needed for that time and god knows how many birds.

I like GSP's and finally got to pick up my first one when we moved back to this area 13 years ago. Charleigh will be 14 this December and has been a very good bird dog. She was a rescue that we took in when she was 11 months old and full of really bad habits. She was birdy as hell and could not wait to find the next covey. Her big running ways lasted for the first three years, until I got her to Iowa for the first time. Running hard all day long was no big trick for her. Bird densities, ofcouse were much higher so she did not have to range so far to find them. After the first day of endless fields and some busted birds she began to understand the game. By the end of the week she figured out when to hold and when to swing infront of the bird to push it back to me. She became a very good pheasant dog in short order. When we had our kids she became a nurse maid. She would come to get uss if one someone started to cry. She still stays right witht he kids if they walk into the woods and will not come bakc without them. She has been a good family dog, you just have to watch your food placement.
By year 6 I could hold her close with hand signals, even in big country and stop her with a wistle or call even if she was in hot pusuit of a non desireable animal. I ran her with setters, wirehairs, brittany's, and other shorthairs. She always held her own. She especially loved to go to the mountains to cool of and to look for grouse, and got pretty good at moving quietly and locking up at distance on spooky birds.
She was extremely small animal aggresive for the first 9 years of her life but that has passed as she as gotten older. I have never seen a dog with more drive to get to game...no mater what the cost. She left alot of pieces of herself in multiflora rose and smilax tangles just to retrieve a dove or quail that got hung up in the middle of a large thicket of that evil stuff...twice as much if the bird was still alive. She even took to woodcock without much ado. If I was closer to bigger bird cover and more birds another GSP would be pretty high on my list. As things are now, I will enjoy her last years and look for a pup with a slightly jaded eye to what my current needs are. Boykins have caught my eye as I hunted over them in SC for several years and they have done well enough in the upland that my trips out to see the BIL would not be wasted on them. And I can put them in the canoe and not take another bath. I swear Charleigh would laugh at me when she dumped us to go after ducks!!

Sorry to get long winded just some experiences for you from another source.

Very informative....I think every DD/Wirehair report says that those breeds are HELL on cats....

Anyone think this could be stopped with socialization from 8 weeks?? My wife would be more than just upset to have my new dog kill our cat(s).

Yes you can stop that in a minute if you do it as a pup.

been a dog man for 30 years, border collies on cattle, pointing labs before most folks had pointing labs, owned some brits, hunted over some shorthairs, if you pick based on the character of the parents you will do fine. Minus the obvious labs and chessies have difficulty in hot weather and running all day, but they will not stop. brits were a peasant dog and originally bred as a one dog for everything, some still do that well. Our current brit will trail wounded deer, find lost arrows, retrieve anything, bark at bears, do about anything. I heard a long time ago a man is Blessed who has a couple of good dogs in his life, I have had way more than that. the more time you spend with them, the more they will listen.

Interesting thred that pertty much proves one thing. The more experience you have with an individual from a certain breed that suits your needs, the more likely you will get another and will believe your breed the best. Just not so but still it works. I've had a couple Labs, several Springers a bunch of Shorthairs and Pointer's and now two Setter's. There were outstanding dogs in each breed and there were duffers. Most given a chance made great house dogs and family dogs. And I would never expect a Lab to compete with a pointer at the Pointer's game or a Springer in the springer's game. Neither expect any of those to really compete with the Lab at his game. I know a lot of guy's will tell you different but the truth is first they love their dog and second, what the dog does suit's them. I have never seen a finer young man than my own son nor have I ever seem finer bird dogs that a lot I have owned and the two I have now. I just don't delude myself that they are something they are not.

The idea that a Shorthair looks like it's leaning on a fence post is lost on me.



Tieh was a really good one and I've had quite a few really good one's. But I do have a favorite, Hannah. Her last hunting trip she was 13yrs old and I lost her at 16yrs. I never saw a dog that could seemingly create a bird where none were apparent like she could. I've also had some nice pointer's but the idea of a pointer that does not run huge is foreign to me.



Pete was as bad a bird dog as I ever owned. That means if I wasn't riding a horse, I wasn't hunting with him, or his dad and several brother's and sister's. Just don't have it in me to own another pointer at this point in my life, I'm getting old!

But I do have a couple of setter's that can send my blood pressure soaring now and again. But they are honest dogs so I don't mind if they do a bit of freelancing.





Anybody that doesn't think his dog is the best thing since sliced bred either has the wrong dog or simply doesn't deserve to own any dog.

The GSP in the top photo is the twin to my Jake. For a moment there I thought he was cheating on me.

As to the post about cats and DD/Wirehairs, my Jake will not tolerate a cat on the same planet with him. I have tried everything from the age of about 3 months when he killed his first one up until last month when he drug the wife ( who was walking him at the time ) down the road a ways. He simply accepts whatever the punishment he might receive for the chance to maul cat.

Don,

Good looking bunch you got there.

my GSP is good with cats but its likely cause i could not get him picked up on the day he needed picked up so my uncle went and grabbed him for me and kept him for a week until i could make the run to South Dakota......Jake spent the week playing with my uncles cat who was bigger than him at the time.....now everytime he sees a cat he thinks its his new best friend.....

would say if your worried bout how your dog may be around cats, introduce them to each other as soon as possible, as young as possible....

Keeping the record straight:

Im a Brittany guy. Most likely because I grew up with them. But for me, a dog has to be a good family dog, and a great hunting dog. IMO Brits are perfect for that. Some people think the Brit was breed to be a close working hunting dog, but I disagree with that. Its believed that Brits came from a cross between a Springer and an English setter, and then bred again to an English pointer. That doesn't sound like they wanted a close working dog to me. One thing about brits is there are tons of different varieties in the breed. Ive seen pictures of brits busting ice in the winter to make a retrieve, and Ive seen them run like the big running All Age pointers. If you want it, it seems like its available in the breed.

I grew up with stock dogs, then beagles, then a GSP, then another round of beagles, then a couple brits, then a lab, now a French Brit. I sort of think the perfect dog is different at different times. Kind of like that old young bull and old bull joke. I'm now to the point where I want to walk down to the field. I never had one that wasn't the perfect dog at the time. Even killed a few birds off my stock dogs as a kid. The GSP was a hunting machine. Had a friend with a Irish setter that was just a wonder. Hunted over Jack the about the same time I read 'Big Red.' Then there were a couple Gordons a friend had, they were classy. My brits were just the greatest buddies. The lab was a perfect companion and my best friend, but she requried good lungs and legs to keep up with her. Had a few friends with Lewelleins. They were big runners and covered ground.
I won't mention that I cussed at all of them, called them all boneheads, promised every one of them that I would sell them to a rendering plant, chased everyone of them at least once across all the bird cover I wanted to hunt while they ran around like idiots, and I don't think one of them passed up a rotten carcass to roll in. Nearly all of them had a least one bird in that little clump of no cover that I dragged them away from two or three times, before the bird flushed and made me look stupid. They all proved the point that the stupidest bird dog knows a lot more than the smartest bird hunter.
Bfly

I might have to use that quote in the future. That is so true its not even funny!

The Brittany Spaniel, as it was originally called, was not recognized as a breed until 1907, but it existed as a "type" for at least 200 years before that.
The Brit is the only modern day pointing breed to have come from a culture in general rather than a small group's, or an individual's selective breeding efforts. Because of this, the Brit defies any sober attempt to divine his ancestry.

Jeff Griffen, Field & Stream's gun dog writer from the 1960s, wrote in his "Hunting Dogs of America" (Doubleday 1964), that different groups bred the dog for different styles of hunting, according to the areas and conditions hunted.
Griffen also mentions that two of the likeliest crosses used for the type's foundation were the Welsh Springer, and the original red and white Irish Setter.

I have had bird dogs all my life.
I've been a licensed hunter for over 30 years.
I won't put down any breed of dog because I've hunted with exceptional dogs of all different breeds.(but)
The 2 best dogs I've hunted with have been English Springer Spaniels.
I don't know if I've just been lucky or what but all the ESP's I've owned or hunted with have been truly exceptional dog's.
Maybe it has something to do with buying puppies from Springville Springer's, I'm not sure.
HTH
Eric

Best hunter I ever saw was a German Shorthair. She would cast around at just the right distance ahead of you, often see her look back and wait if you got too far behind. If the bird didn't launch she would freeze and watch the spot until you got close enough to flush the bird and pick it up and bring it back like it was an egg. Calm in the car, but loved to hunt. Spot was absolutely the best pheasant dog I have ever been around.

Of course, the worse dog I ever had was a German Shorthair. Saddleback loved to hunt, but first you had to make sure he didn't get away from you before you got him to the hunting area, since he liked to hunt wherever he was, or at least run. He ran until he flushed birds, which meant he was often a hundred yards away. However, he would often actually catch the pheasants and bring them back. Once got to pay a nice fine because he got away and brought one back before the sun was up. The game warden didn't see the humor. And he never learned anything, dense as a stump, but as friendly a beast as I ever had.

I still miss them both.

Give me a Large Munsterlander everytime!! Great family dogs,great pointers,great retrievers and will do coldwater retrieves right next to labs and chessie's all day long.

For down and nasty nothing goes all day long like a Chessie. They proved it on the Eastern Shore long ago.

Battue that can't be true!

I have a Wirehaired Pointing Griffon....having had several labs in the past, we will have Griffs from now on. Like labs, Griffs are great family dogs, good with people, exudes love and wants to please. Unlike some Pointers, Griffs are not kennel dogs AT ALL. Griffs have more personality than any other breed I have been around. Also, they are fabulous versatile bird dogs. She hunts close, slow & thorough and almost manufactures birds out of tree rows and grass/brush that other dogs have missed. This is where she shines, picking up birds, that other dogs went by. She a machine on pheasant, huns and quail, but for some reason she struggles with sharpies. She creeps with pheasant, but doesn't chase. She is a great "dead" bird hunter, but not a great retriever. I have not had her force broke though, and will not. As long as she points birds and "hunts dead" I can pick up my own birds lying in the field. Mine typically hunts ND and SE Sask. every year. Another "pro"....they do not shed.

Ours loves water, but have not hunted ducks with her. She has found one archery deer, that otherwise would have been lost.

I have also hunted over Deutsch-Drahthaars too. My FIL had a couple. They are good bird dogs as well. The Drahthaar is what led me to get a Griff. I couldn't deal with the cultish Drahthaar following, the tattoos and the German standards and regs regarding their breed. Drahthaars and Griffs are similar in a lot of ways. IMO, the Drahths are a bit more aggressive with other dogs, varmints etc., but the ones I have been around made great family pets.

Both the Griff and Drahthaar will go after skunks, porcupines, chase rabbits and deer if not kept under close control.

The many faces of Belle

very, very cool... Looking for a "Belle" of my own....

we have always had airedales, and are getting a pup this friday, my Last Airedale was a great retrevier, the dog would take hand directions and loved to swim, he would flush birds but i don't think he had the greatest of Noses, So far this will be the 4th airdale we have had, not only do they make great retreivers they are great family members, I teethed on a Airedale with no complaints, they shed very little very protective but not aggrisive toward children, they are independent enough they won't destroy your house but they love to be with you. My Last dale came in at about 120 lbs and 36" (big dale) and was the gentlest creature i have ever seen. My Grandmother had a little 5lb poodle that would hang on his ears. After grandma passed we got the poodle and the Dale and poodle were together night and day. when the airedale died, the poodle wouldn't eat for days, and stayed on his pillow in the corner, . After my experiance with several airedales i will always have a dale colse at hand

[quote=johnw
Jeff Griffen, Field & Stream's gun dog writer from the 1960s, wrote in his "Hunting Dogs of America" (Doubleday 1964), that different groups bred the dog for different styles of hunting, according to the areas and conditions hunted.
Griffen also mentions that two of the likeliest crosses used for the type's foundation were the Welsh Springer, and the original red and white Irish Setter. [/quote]

Thats the first time Ive ever heard anyone who thought Brits were just a cross between a springer and setter. Everything Ive read leads most people to believe there were EP's involved as well, if not the main cross between a springer and EP. Either way, they are great dogs, and todays brits are a lot different then the brits we hunted over 25 years ago. I expect the brits 20 years from now will be bigger, longer legged, and run bigger then the brits we have now.