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Need help here guys. I've been practicing and practicing, but because my local range doesn't allow broadheads, I was not using them.

Welp, since hunting season is at hand, I waited until close to dark last night, no one around, and my itty-bitty, perfectly centered groups with practice points turned into random acts of frustration with broadheads.

Arrows everywhere, mostly low and to the right. Where to begin?

PSE Baby G
Easton Epic 300 carbon arrows with regular old Cabelas broadheads.

Pins are dead on at 20, 30 and 45 yards with field points. With the broadheads, even 20 yards is a stretch right now. I'm going back tonight for more, but I need help/advice. I need to get this ironed out.

Rick

Buy a package of 125 grain slick trick Broad heads and have them over night to you. Don't waste another minute of this frustration with other broadheads.

SlickTrick broadheads will help you more than you would think. I shoot both ST's and Muzzy's, either will do the job for you. Muzzy's are a lot easier to get your hands on and I think both are great. As to the weight of the broad head I would refer you to the FOC method. I use 100gr 3 blade broad heads

FOC

I found a set of Thunderheads--per Flinch's suggestion. While they do impact low and left of my field points, they seem to be consistent.

Rick,

When are you heading down to Charlie Sisk's again? My bow shop in Dayton, Texas is up and running and I'm betting I can have your bow shooting fixed blade broadheads in the same hole as your field tips within an hour.

Also, now that you are into archery I'll send you one of my hats. I'm having a local girl in Dayton do them for me and she has been doing a great job if you are still looking for a hat maker.

What draw weight are you shooting? What is your arrow length and field tip weight? A 300 spine in an Easton Epic shaft is stiff for most setups around here. I sell mostly 400s and 340s are my next biggest seller.

Take care,
Sam

Sam:

You're the first person I thought of!!

OK, it's a PSE Baby G with a 30" draw length. The pull weight is factory set at 70 pounds.

I just weighed everything. The field point weigh 100 grains. The broadheads 125 grains.

The minimum arrow weight for he bow is 435 grains. With field points, my arrows weigh 441 grains. With broadheads, 466.

Shot some more today.

With field tips, I can pretty much use the top pin anywhere from 20 to 35 yards. Groups are real tight and right on. As I moved back to 40 and then 45 yards, the arrows started dropping, but in a very straight line from the bull. Things look real good with field tips.

With broadheads, I can see the arrow's flight is not straight. The back end is squirly. The arrows stick in the targets at weird and different angles � cocked left or right. The the field tips, they're straight in, all of the shafts at the same angle.

Also, braodheads are shooting well to the left mostly from 30 to 45 yards, and groups are NOT tight enough to discern a pattern beyond that.

I think I'll try some 100-grain broadheads unless I hear otherwise.

Muzzy or Slick Tricks?? Which ones?

Thanks for all the help.

Rick

Here's the cure for your ill's paper tuning

Just did FOC:

7.25% and 10.48%.

Will read up on paper tuning.

Rick

Rick,

Maybe you should try 125 grain points and 100 grain broadheads?
I have a buddy who shoots 100 grain points for practice, and then shoots 90 grain 4 blade muzzy's when he hunts, and theat works great for him. So maybe the 125/100 will work for you? I don't know, just a guess.

Another solution, since you will be deer hunting, is buy a pack of Mechanicals. I would not reccommend them for anything bigger than a deer, but for deer, they do just fine. plus, they fly just like field points. If you do go that route, make sure they don't open too much or they will lose penetration power.

Hope this helps somewhat,
Enrique

I'm new to the bowhunting world, but if your field-points are 100grns I'd suspect that the only way you will get broadheads to group to the same spot is to use 100grn broads. 125grn broads should hit lower than your 100grn fieldpoints. As for scatter gun groups, put your feild-points back on and see how they group. If they scatter gun then maybe it's just your form. Make sure that your looking at your target and not your pin. I'm having the same problem, but I just switched to using blazer vanes. I don't know if that's the problem or not. I have to wait until I get a day off. Also make sure that all your bolts are tight. Good luck and please let us know how it goes. The more I practice the worse I shoot. I think I start to develope bad habits. Or my bad habits get worse. My golf game is the same way. The more I play the worse I get. In other words if you have been practicing alot lately, put the bow down for 3-4 days and try it again. That seems to work for me. Good luck CD

Something is out of tune. Changing broadhead brands may help but it may be a bandaid, not a cure. Paper tuning should help greatly. 25gr difference out of a centershot compound shouldn't matter except for roughly 5fps and a lower impact point. Look for fletching clearance issues. Are any of your vanes/feathers showing wear more than the others? Any point on the riser around the rest that shows contact? You could put a light coat of corn starch around the rest, shoot an arrow and look for contact. I've used corn starch because baby/foot powder stinks. Just some thoughts.

Scott is right, something is out of tune.

try dropping your draw weight 5 lbs.

Rick, I don't shoot carbons or compound bows, but arrows are arrows.:)
What is occurring is with the heavier b-head( and it's longer also) you have changed the balance point of the arrow and effectively weakened the spine(stiffness) coefficient, causing low right hits or erratic hits.

Balance point needs to be the same and all else being equal, a slightly lighter b-head( as one poste above suggests) should correct the POI so b-head & field points impact the same.
That's where I'd start anyhow..
You also may adjust the brace and nocking point a tad but don't change more than one component at a time.
Get a b-head target..
I make mine useing burlap bags stuffed tight with used shrink wrap..jim

I might suggest that you go to Easton's webb sight. They have a tuning guide that is a PDF file that you can down load.
There is a section on tuning broadheads. I tune my bow this way and my field tips and broadheads hit the same spot.

I would use thunder head broad heads, I have never found a bad one the whole time I have been shooting, I would get the 100 grain heads, and put a one and a half or two degree right heelackle turn on them, if that is not what you have already done.If that is what you shoot and have on your arrow then I do not know what to tell you. Oh I might also try to switch to ICS 300 or 400 grain carbon arrows, with a 100 grain thunder head broad head. Does you local bow shop have a target range set up in the back, if so then you might ask them if you could practice tuning your bow there. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Rick, I shot the Cabellas brand heads for a couple of years (both 3 and 4 blade designs) with absolute frustration. You simply can't tune them, nobody can. They are an inexpensive head, durable and they get the job done, but shoot HORRIBLE! I killed several critters with them, but my "comfort zone" was reduced to about 35 yards with them, when normally it is 60 yards with Thunderheads. I let my braudhead group size dictate my comfort zone. Like you, no matter how I turned the heads, weighed the blades, changed the fletching or tried to tune the arrows, they stuck in the targets goofy and flew strange. I went to the Thunderheads and never looked back. I have shot them for many years. Now I am shooting the Slick Tricks and they are the meow. Cheap heads are like cheap bullets. In the end, they aren't so cheap <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Flinch

I've never shot the Slick Tricks so I can't comment on them. If you can't find them quick enough I'd give the nod too the 3 blade Muzzy's over the Thunderheads. The blade retentionsystem of the Muzzys is heads and shoulders above the T.h. To my ear the Muzzys fly quieter and also easier for me too tune with a fast bow.

Dave.

Your bow is not tuned..meaning your rest and/or nock point is off.

The only way to fix it is shooting through paper. Take a large cardboard box. Cut a window on the front of the box, and the back of the box. Cover the front window with tight paper (butcher wrap works well). Set the box level with your bow, get back 10 feet or so and shoot your arrow tipped witha field point, through the paper . Read the tear. A properly aligned arrow will leave a nice Y through the paper. If it is not leaving a nice Y then you need to adjust your rest and/or nock until it does. If the point is to the left of the tear, you need to move your rest right, if the point of the tear is up, then you need to move your nock up, or your rest down. SIMPLE. Once you can shoot a Y then your bow WILL shoot broadheads the same as field points.

Gonna try 100-grain Muzzys tomorrow simply because the local shop has them in stock. Hoping that will do the trick, as a bow tune may not be in the cards before next weekend.

Maybe mechanicals are a good plan B.

All advice considered here.

Paper tuning is an intermediate step. The best way to get a bow tuned and shooting centerflight is by getting a properly spined arrow and shooting the bow at 2 distances 5 to 10 yards apart. If your point of impact changes, you know that the rest and/or knock points need to be corrected. It can be time consuming, especially if the arrow rest is one that does not adjust very easily but I've seen arrows cut clean holes through paper that are still not quite center flight. Bare-shaft paper tuning is much more precise that trying to read tears with fletch arrows.

Also, I find it much easier to tune most modern bows that it is working up hunting loads for most rifles.


Here is a good utility from easton for selecting the proper shaft.

http://www.eastonarchery.com/downloads/

As for broadheads. With a carbon arrow I like an 85-100 grain fixed 3 blade head that is about 1 1/8 - 1 3/16 cutting diameter. I've been using the Rocky Titanium for about 5 years and they fly great. Some other tried and true heads are the Thunderhead, (Newer) Muzzy and Rocky Advantage. Some newer heads that are worth taking a look at are the Montec, Crossfire, Nitro, Turbo, Rocket Ultimate Steel and Wacem. I've heard great things about Slick Tricks but have always preferred 3 blades over 4. Crimson Talons under 125 grains will fly but not any better than the other ones.

mechanicals suck. Get some Muzzy 100's. I have used Muzzy 125's and 100 3 and 4 blade models and all shot great.

If you are shooting carbons then i wouldn't go over 100 grains.

I shot a bull with a 100 and it went all the way through and stuck in a tree on the other side. Muzzy's are the best heads out there. You can shoot them through 55 gallon drums and they won't loose blades. I have done it lots of times just to prove a point to non-believers.

Just based on what you wrote about your groups, (assuming your are spined correctly) I am guessing you need to kick your rest up a hair or lower your nock point. And you probably need to kick your rest to the left. Paper is the only way to go though.

Rick,

I know your draw length is 30'' but what is your arrow length?

Sam

dogcatcher,

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the Muzzys. I shot a doe in the shoulder with a Muzzy in 95 and bent the ferrule significantly. I lost 1 blade completely and broke the other two. Granted, I shouldn't have hit her in the shoulder but a small animal should not have done that much damage to my head. Also, the blades on the Muzzy were no where near as sharp as on Rocky or NAP heads. In fact, the Montec which aren't even replaceable have sharper blades than most Muzzys I have seen.

I have had awesome performance with Rocky Advantage 100s on elk and the Rocky Titaniums on deer and have been able to use the heads on multiple animals after replacing the blades.

The newer Muzzy's are better than the ones 10 years ago but I think there are plenty of good choices out there and I don't think Muzzy is at the top of the heap.

I do agree with you about MOST mechanicals though.

Sam and all:

The arrow shaft itself is 30 1/4" The distance from the end of the shaft to the bottom of the nock is another 3/8".

What the heck does "spined" mean???

Rick

Your arrows are spined just fine, if you are shooting a 70 pound bow, 67-72#. Just do the paper test with a bare arrow if you have one, use the same arrow you will be using for hunting if you can. Any further help will require more information about where you are going hunting.....

Rick,

As Rusky said, your arrows are spined correctly for your bow weight, tip weight and arrow length.

As for the meaning of "spined". Arrows come in different sizes not just because of their weight but based on their stiffness/flexibility. To achieve proper arrow flight, you need to have the correct amount of flex on your arrow for it to stabilize. If an arrow wobbles too much or is too stiff, it won't fly straight. The arrow manufacturers calculate this for us so all we have to do is plug in the correct numbers to the chart to see if we are properly spined for your individual setup.

Shorter arrows are stiffer than longer arrows with the same spine thickness and tip weight and bow poundage also contribute to the arrows stiffness. I initially thought you might be overspined (too stiff) based on the Epic 300 size but with such a long arrow (30+ inches) you need a stiffer arrow than most archers shooting shorter arrows out of 70 lbs bows.

Guys:

And things got better today.

I went to the pro shop. It seems my rest was a little bit off center. If you looked from behind and lined up the string with the middle of the handle, the arrow tip could be seen pointing left.

It took me a while, but I finally got the rest adjusted so the arrow and the string line up just about perfectly.

Also, went to Muzzy 100-grain 3-blade. They have a practice blade in the set, and things were a LOT more consistent today. At 20 yards, dead on. The other two pins need to be adjusted, but the aroows were grouping, and that's half the battle.

BTW, the guy who owns the pro shop says the PSE Baby G is a mother to tune. He says if I can shoot that, I can shoot anything. He didn't leave me with a lot of confidence about the bow, but there's nothing to be done now.

More tomorrow.

Rick

Rick,

I sighted in for my broadheads today. They have a slightly different POI than my field points. I started out shooting two-arrow groups, but after I cut the fletching off the first arrow with the second--ruining yet another arrow (I now have 8.5 of 12 left), I went to shooting one-arrow groups. By that I mean I would shoot one, go get it, shoot another one, go get it, etc.

These 100 grain Thunderheads are very consistent, though the do tear the snot out of my target. Of course, there is no guarantee I'll even hit a animal in the field....................

Try different bulls eyes on the same target, it can save a lot of walking and time.

I know I have written this 100 times now but the really best archery "hunting" practice is not to shoot more then a 2 arrow string. The heavy draw weight and the dedication to make each shot count is much better with only two arrows at a time. Strength recovery and lower stress to you, plus the forced focus to actually aim on every shot rather then launch long strings of arrows just to shoot them is far better.

If fitness is the goal thats a different kind of shooting practice. I rather doubt you can practice *and* work on fitness by shear volume of arrows shot. They cannot be done at same time that you are concentrating on perfect accuracy and form. Practice for finess requires no more then 7-10 yards, practice for accuracy should allow 25-40 yards for the skills needed to aim steady at hunting distances.

Remember also that the punishment you give your joints and tendons in your 20's and 30's will be with you forever. Muscle strength can come and go and recover from great stress, but joints and tendon problems are forever! Practice wisely and only to the extent needed to prove your accuracy and your gear.

If you just love to shoot and want high frequency practice either reduce your draw weight by about 30% or get another lighter "target" bow for your practice. I'm living proof that long term relentless heavy practice is not a good idea with a a draw weight intended for big game hunting! My elbow problems are cronic and very frustrating. I must have frequent cortosone injections to reduce the swelling, and will likley have to have another surgery to shorten the tendons and smooth over the bone spurs on my elbow where the tendons have dug into the joint. If only I would have known this 20 years ago!

The percent Let off of your bow is not relevent. It's the tendon stretching joint loosening initial pull that will cause you grief later in life. Thinking back how I used to shoot for an hour or more with 6-8 arrow strings every day sometimes twice a day with a 75 lb draw compound bow. That was using fingers too!

Todays top speed bows have a narrow valley meaning you may get 75% letoff or more but you draw the peak weight a longer distance. This situation is very much like guys who thought using hearing protection 25 years ago when shooting a gun, or running a chainsaw was for sissys. Now I don't think I ever see anyone without it. I'm afraid that these new narrow valley high let off bows everyone is using will also cause some real elbow and shoulder issues in 20 years for those guys that shoot as much as I used to. I now have an everyday light compound bow for shooting a lot. However I hunt with the legacy and shoot it only enough to be dead nuts on target, then I go hunting.

The most serious situation I see is when you must let down on the bow and not shoot when at full draw. Not very frequent but when it happens the damage potential with a high draw weight is significant. When the string hits the right position on that cam it will go from a really light hold to an instant full draw weight. Being strong enough to handle the bow is not the issue either. Almost anyone can be taught the technique to draw a very heavy bow. It's the constant strecth over the years that will haunt you later.

Not trying to nag or preach just remember that you will not be in your 20's or 30's forever and the possible damage will follow you through your life!

I agree. After on a short time doing this (again), I can see two-arrow strings are the way to go. I always shoot the first two pretty well, but the third is iffy.......

Rick,

As soon as you get your pins sighted in and are comfortable, hopefully before the hunt, try shooting at different ranges. For instence 23 yds 27 yds and so on and so on.
I say this, because many shots are never 30 yards or 20 yards, they are always in the middle somewhere of where your pins are set up. And being able to know where your bow is going to hit at those off yards is a good Idea. Granted there are only a few days left before your hunt,so you may not even get to that point.

It seems like you are right on track again with your shooting. Hopefuly you will have most of your pins set up before the hunt. Good luck with the process.

Youngbuck

Yesterday things went well again.

I think I have them sighted in at 20, 30, and 45. At 50, drop was another 4-5 inches. Groups are not as tight as with field points, but things are minute of deer vitals all around.

BTW, I really like that Muzzy included a set of practice blades.

More later.

Rick

I'll post this one more time. If broadheads and field points of the same weight dont have the same POI....SOMETHING IS OUT OF TUNE. I never have to adjust my pins when i make the swap from field points to broadheds. If an arrow doesnt arrive at the desired POI, I begin tuning it...slightly rotating the nock till desired POI is acheived. I use a whisker biscuit so fletching clearance is not an issue as far as the rest is concerned. I have spent quite a few years at archery shops during the offseason working on bows. I learned from some of the better techs in the business.

280Ack,

I have no question what you say is true, but Rick and I are so new at this isn't what may appear to be a difference in POI may actually be inconsistencies in how we anchor and hold?

Today, at 40 yds with the Thunderheads, I would up putting my sight back to about where it was with fieldpoints. I focused on touching my nose when I anchored. I got to about 3" groups at 40 yds and 1" groups at 30--those were two-arrrow groups.

BTW, the Primos sling works well and protects the string.

Shooting is shooting, once your form is down it doesn't matter how much you practice. The key is getting your muscles all tuned up for shooting so you can hold steady and not tire out.

You really want to train for hunting, draw, aim and hold on target as long as you can before releasing. That really is something that is applicable in a hunting situation. Try it the next time you shoot and see of you can still make the shot after holding and starting to shake from fatigue.

LOL, that is what I do now, because I have to consciously think about open hand twisted out, string fully drawn, anchor point against my nose, bow not canted; before I even get the pin on target and try to steady it.............

Rick, Your bow string, sight pins and arrow should all line up perfectly if you hold your bow out in front of you and look down your arrow. It should be in perfect line as well. Make sure you are anchoring at the EXACT same point each time and don't punch the trigger.

280ACC, I am sure that "most" heads can be made to shoot similar to field points with some tweaking, I have done it for years. But, there are many heads out that simply WILL NOT shoot to the same POI as field points no matter the amount of tweaking (just like many rifle won't do it with different bullets). No 4 blade head or head of more than 1 1/4 cutting diameter will shoot to the same POI (other than the Slick Tricks). I have tweaked some of the larger braud heads until the frustration does me in. They simply shoot a lot different than field tips, and there isn't any amount of tweaking that will change that. Some shoot pretty good to 30 yards, but no amount of tweaking will make them shoot like field points at 40+. I have shot a couple of different heads that shoot like a shotgun if there is even the slightest breeze. Others shoot really good and paper tune perfectly to 30 yards. At 40 and 50, you couldn't hit a 50 gallon barrel with them. What suddenly changes, I have no idea, but some heads that are out plain outright suck and can't be tuned. Flinch

Flinch,

The 85 and 100 Slick Tricks are only 1 1/8. I'm not sure about the 125s though.

I only use 3 blades but have heard good things about Slick Tricks flight characteristics but I'm betting if a Slick Trick were 1 1/4 instead of 1 1/8 it wouldn't fly very good either.

Your point is well taken just the same. Too much head diameter with too many blades just don't fly very well no matter how well a bow is tuned.

Well maybe i should have said "to an extent". Because yes for some reason aerodynamics does come into play and no matter what u do...the dang broadheads just aint gonna cooperate.

Yes anchor and hold play a part. I used a wrist strap release for a while. I just couldnt get consistant with it. I now use..well used to use before my shoulders cancelled archery season..a tru ball chappy boss T handle release with the talon rope head. I find i get a very consistant and steady anchor point with that release.