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#5598143 - 09/07/11 07:21 PM 10mm vs. 41 mag
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: NW Louisiana
Not looking to compare ballistics, BTDT.

Curious what you guys who have used both have to say about these two.

Factory ammo more ltd in 10mm?

Like to hear from those who have taken deer/hogs or larger game w/10mm.

Thanks for replies.
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#5598503 - 09/07/11 08:48 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
Esox357 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 4455
Loc: Ohio
Both can find ammo readily, and there are plenty of places online that you can order it. It will come down to which platform you prefer if you want a semi automatic then by all means the 10mm is for you, if you like the wheel gun than a 41 mag is in line. Smith and Wesson does make a 10mm in a wheel gun as well. Either one is capable of taking medium game. There use to be a company called DoubleTap, I believe they are still around and make plenty of 10mm ammo.


Edited by Esox357 (09/07/11 08:49 PM)

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#5598514 - 09/07/11 08:53 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Esox357]
VAnimrod Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/21/04
Posts: 61128
Loc: gone
Choose a platform, and go from there.

Semi-auto = 10mm
Wheelgun = .41

Nothing you hit with either, will ever know or care about the differences.
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#5598573 - 09/07/11 09:19 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: VAnimrod]
GAP243 Offline
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Registered: 10/14/10
Posts: 220
Loc: Texas
+1

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#5598695 - 09/07/11 10:36 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: GAP243]
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: NW Louisiana
Ran Rugers Smiths and TC and passed on a Dan W. tdy but when it comes to a 10 I think auto, and a friend is thinking of changing out his OMBH for a 10.

Intended use - self defense and game thru deer, with more reach than a 45.
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#5598717 - 09/07/11 11:15 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
HARDBALLER Offline
Member

Registered: 09/25/07
Posts: 46
It all comes down to the platform. I only have experience with the 10. Have killed a black bear and a large mountain lion with mine.

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#5598731 - 09/07/11 11:31 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: HARDBALLER]
smithrjd Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/03/07
Posts: 1940
Semi or revolver.. Mine is a S&W 357PD, my "carry gun"

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#5598790 - 09/08/11 02:29 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: smithrjd]
JCMCUBIC Offline
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Registered: 04/25/05
Posts: 5343
One nice thing about the 10mm is you can go either semi or revolver. The S&W 610 and 310 are fun revolvers with 40 or 10's...shootin the same loads as a G20 without having to chase brass.

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#5598885 - 09/08/11 04:46 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: JCMCUBIC]
Happy Birthday Odessa Offline
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Registered: 02/09/01
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Loc: Downeast NC
Never owned a 10mm semi-auto, but have owned (and still own) several .41 MAG revolvers and a lever action rifle. The one thing I would recommend when you buy your first .41 MAG is to buy 500 or 1000 cases from Starline and stock up on the bullet of your choice - you simply won't find much in the way of .41 MAG components on the shelves of the small to medium gunshops in rural areas (unless you get real lucky and the shop owner is a .41 MAG nut too).
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#5598944 - 09/08/11 05:21 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Odessa]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
For what your friend wants the gun/caliber for either will due...

Glock has some great 10mms for both hunting and CC but really not in the same model. Hauling around a Glock 20 concealed all the time would not be my idea of a good time but they have some smaller models. In a 1911 it would be no different that carrying one in any other caliber except one would probably not an aluminum frame with full loads for both recoil control and longevity of the gun.

Somewhere in the last two days I saw a Glock 20 with the stock barrel, 6" barrel and two magazines, one stock length and a long one for sale...it may have been at Kittery Trading Post in Kittery, Maine...looked like a nice gun.

Bob
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#5599192 - 09/08/11 07:21 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: VAnimrod]
ColsPaul Offline
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Registered: 07/31/10
Posts: 9516
Loc: Dublin, Ohio
Originally Posted By: VAnimrod
Choose a platform, and go from there.

Semi-auto = 10mm
Wheelgun = .41

Nothing you hit with either, will ever know or care about the differences.


Beat me to it!

Hmmm. that felt like a 10mm not a .41 Mag?!
Only your pathologist will know the difference!
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#5599248 - 09/08/11 07:41 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: VAnimrod]
GunGeek Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/08/04
Posts: 16944
Loc: NW Nevada
Originally Posted By: VAnimrod
Choose a platform, and go from there.

Semi-auto = 10mm
Wheelgun = .41

Nothing you hit with either, will ever know or care about the differences.
For the most part, VAnimrod nails it right on the head. The .41 Magnum gives you more options for bullet shape, since a revolver is agnostic to bullet shape, and bullet weight. The 10mm basically tops out at 200 grains, but you may find something slightly heavier. If you want to hunt larger than deer game, the .41 mag will give you better options in heavy cast bullets like the LBT WFNs. I doubt youre ever going to get a 10mm bullet with a meplat as wide as a WFN, but who knows?

That's the only exception I can think of to VA's comments.
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#5599656 - 09/08/11 10:04 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: GunGeek]
JamesDunn Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 469
Loc: Sacramento, CA
If your NOT a reloader then I have issues with 10mm in the current spec of factory loadings....it got lawyered (and I date a lawyer so I understand the issues here..LOL) down to a mere shadow of its original self...the original 10mm spec loads from Norma were HOT...200gr loads leaving the muzzle at nearly 1300fps...WOW...that gave you at 100 yards the same or more energy that a 45acp 230gr ball load had at the muzzle...the Bren 10 being a upsized copy of the CZ75 meant it had the strentgh handle what ever you could stuff in it and most likely more...other 10mm's...not so much.....so SAAMI (hope I got the acronym right there) emasculated the 10mm till its not but slightly better than the 40 Short and Whimpy...but if your a reloader and understand the limits of your gun..then rock on brother..the 10mm is fantastic.....just make sure your gun is capable of handling any loads above current SAAMI spec


Edited by JamesDunn (09/08/11 10:06 AM)
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#5599685 - 09/08/11 10:13 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: JamesDunn]
JamesDunn Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/19/11
Posts: 469
Loc: Sacramento, CA
.41 Mag is in my opinion one of the most underated calibers going. It was the perfect compromise between .357mag and 44mag...I love the 41mag and started handgun hunting hogs with one when I was a teenager. The best part is that you can get most 41mag guns cheap because not many people like them...you can always get them for less that the 44mag counterpart of the same pistol....I got a Smith and Wesson Model 57 last year for less than you can get a model 29 for. I paid 325.00 for it in nice shape with the box....Also Taurus now makes a gun in that caliber and its reasonable priced too...41mag very underated


Edited by JamesDunn (09/08/11 10:14 AM)
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#5599716 - 09/08/11 10:20 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: JamesDunn]
tex_n_cal Offline
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Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 14707
Loc: Back in Texas, for good!
I've personally had 200gr JHP's out past 1500 fps out of a 8 & 3/8 M57, going back a few years ago, when I was even less shy about stuffing powder in cases grin So as much as I like the 10mm, the 41 will beat it for hunting, and maybe for longer range silhouette shooting, but a 10mm 1911 is an awfully nice, well balanced setup. If Glocks work for you, you can also Glock it and have a hi-cap mag on tap.
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#5599910 - 09/08/11 11:42 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
EWY Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 07/15/07
Posts: 3085
Loc: Illinois
I don't know where you plan to hunt, but my home state of Illinois does not allow the use of semi auto handguns for deer. Revolvers are fine. FWIW.

Ernie
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#5599952 - 09/08/11 12:00 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
Eremicus Offline
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 18881
Loc: Placerville,CA,USA
The 10mm ammo today seem to shoot the 180 gr. load about 1150-1180 fps. unless you are shooting the Federal HydraShok load. Then you are getting about 980 fps., not much over the 40 S&W.
With 200 gr. loads, you are looking at 1050 fps. with the Hornady XTP to about 1150 fps. with the Double Tap lead ammo.
I might add here that you can buy ammo that is loaded hotter, not only in the 10mm, but the 41 Mag as well.
With the 41 magnum, you can get 210 gr. ammo that clocks a bit more than the usual 240 gr. .44 Mag ammo. That's about 1280 fps. with the a 4 inch, up to over 1500 fps. with an 8 3/8'ths inch gun.
Shooting them, and I've owned both, is alot different. The muzzle blast and felt recoil are significantly different. The 41 has more of both, especially muzzle blast, thanks to the clynder gap on the revolvers it comes in. A look at loading data for both will explain this easily. The 41, even with heavier bullets, burns alot more powder.
That doesn't mean the 41 isn't a very useful round. If want real big game killing power and long range capability that those 1300-1500 fps velocities will make happen, and you don't want to get as beat up by recoil the way the .44 Magnum does, the 41 is your round.
To my mind, the 10mm is for people who want more power and especially range than the .45 ACP gives in a large semi auto pistol. That it does well.
The 10mm has a great rep for accuracy and is not nearly as fussy to load as the 40 S&W, especially with heavier bullets. My gun, a 1006 Smith, functions perfectly with semi wadcutter lead bullets, even when loaded well down into the 40's velocity level. E

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#5601386 - 09/08/11 07:54 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Eremicus]
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: NW Louisiana
Thanks all, I don't expect to sell my 41s anytime soon, but may try a 10 in the future.

The person who was thinking of trading his Ruger 41 OMBH and get into a 10 may do fine for what he wants to do.

He felt the 10mm may be easier to get ammo, he is a non loader, I however roll my own. I am not sure ammo is any readily found in 10mm but never checked much. My idea is just order in advance and no issues.

Anyone want to share hunting stories w/their 10mm and the load or bullet used?

Thanks again.
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#5601677 - 09/08/11 09:23 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
Esox357 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/16/01
Posts: 4455
Loc: Ohio
Buffalo Bore and Swampfox are two other companies that load the 10mm, pretty interesting loading they have as well.

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#5601963 - 09/09/11 04:23 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
chlinstructor Offline
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Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 6382
Loc: TX
I handload for my 10mm & I'm getting 1300fps with the Hornady 200gr XTP bullet. It's basically a max load using AA9 powder. It is very accurate in both my Glock 20 & my Kimber 10mm. It will completly exit & leave a huge wound channel through big feral hogs. I carry the Glock when I'm bow hunting here in Texas, because it carries 16 rounds with one in the pipe.
Carrying a handgun here in Texas is perfectly legal during archery season if you have a CHL.
I also have a S&W model 57 Mountain Gun in 41 mag with a 4"bbl.
I carry it some in NM or CO when i'm bow hunting or fly fishing in black bear country. I have some handloads with a 250gr LBT hard cast WFN bullet going nearly 1300fps. Maximum load of WW-296
It's quite a handfull, but it will certainly do just about anything my 44 mags will do, with a little less recoil & its much lighter to carry than my Clement's Custom Super Blackhawk in 44 mag. You can get Buffalo Bore ammo for either caliber in hard cast LBT type bullets with a big wide meplat from Cabela's.
Either caliber is a great choice for handgun hunting if you choose the right bullet/ammo.
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#5601968 - 09/09/11 04:32 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
Mannlicher Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/08/03
Posts: 45152
Loc: N. Central Florida, and Miami
if you like heavy for caliber, hard cast lead bullets, then you have to go with the .41 Mag.
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#5602588 - 09/09/11 09:09 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Mannlicher]
bobmn Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 281
In order to take all the personnal prejudice out of the discussion, these are two quotes from "Metallic Cartridge Reloading" 3rd edition:
10 mm page 307: " Useable case capacity ... is about 14.6 grains of water."
41 mag page 310: "Useable case capacity ... is about 20.8 grains of water."
There is no possible way the 10mm is the ballistic equivalent of the 41 mag. Actual chronographed velocities from a 4" ported Taurus Titanium Tracker:
Federal 250 grain factory Cast Core 1055 fps
maximum handload 250 grain WFLNGC Cast Performance 1265 fps.
Weight of Titanium Tracker with Hogue Monogrip 25 ounces. I replaced the factory Ribber grip because while "cushiony", they need an adapter behind the trigger guard and it beats the index finger of my right hand unmercifully. Taurus firearms have a deseved reputation for poor quality and their customer service is not poor it is non exsistent. I lucked out and got a revolver with no issues. It is not a S&W but no other manufacturer makes a 5 shot 41 mag on an L frame.
When discussing the 10mm vs.the 41 Mag they are not equal ballistically but the real question is do you need the extra power? Where I wander in the back of beyond I need the incremental increase.

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#5603278 - 09/09/11 12:55 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: bobmn]
340boy Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/11/06
Posts: 19461
Loc: Idaho
I've never owned a 41 Mag, but I have had a (fair) bit of experience with the 10mm at various different pressure levels in the Glock 20 and 29. Great cartridge, and even with the hot Buffalo Bore fodder, quite shootable, even in the compact Glock 29.
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#5603346 - 09/09/11 01:16 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: bobmn]
GunGeek Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/08/04
Posts: 16944
Loc: NW Nevada
Originally Posted By: bobmn
There is no possible way the 10mm is the ballistic equivalent of the 41 mag.

Youre absolutely right; on paper. But for most things youre going to hunt, the difference will never be noticed. Not until you get to really large animals do you see the big divide between the two cartridges. On deer at reasonable ranges, Id challenge anyone to show me a true practical differencePlace similar constructed bullets in the same spot and youll get the same response.
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#5603413 - 09/09/11 01:39 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: GunGeek]
Eremicus Offline
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Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 18881
Loc: Placerville,CA,USA
Maybe, Kevin. The hottest pressure tested loads I can find for the 10mm run about 1150-1170 fps. with a 200 gr. bullet.
In the 41 Magnum, 210 gr. loads with slightly longer barrels run 1400-1425 fps.
As far as penetration goes, I've punched through 3 end to end 2.5 gal water jugs with Double Taps 200 gr. wide flat points in the 10. That's what the standard swagged lead loads from the .44 Magnum do. The same stuff Elmer Keith used to shoot through the frontal plates on big range bulls. Just what anyone would need more penetration for is beyond me. E

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#5603562 - 09/09/11 02:41 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Eremicus]
THOMASMAGNUM Offline
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Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 7472
Loc: Arizona
Give me a .41 , a supply of W296, and gas checked 250gr WFNs anyday....

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#5604189 - 09/09/11 06:21 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: THOMASMAGNUM]
GF1 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/22/08
Posts: 2598
I like them both, have 3x M57s and a Kimber Combat II 10mm. Like them all, FWIW.

The M57s are a bit more powerful, somewhat more accurate than my 10. I get about 1200 fps from 180 grain bullets in the 10; about 1300 w/ 215 gr hard cast bullets in the .41.

I hate an either/or choice; get both. In .41, I'd sure recommend a no-dash M57. I'm please w/ the Kimber 10; the Eclipse is a fine pistol also (have had a 4" .45 Eclipse for eight years now, and it's great). If pushed hard, I'd get the .41 first...

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#5605308 - 09/10/11 07:41 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: GF1]
croldfort Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 4539
Loc: SE KS
To each his own. I do not own a .44 mag or larger handgun. I do not even own a .357. I do own a sh*tpot full of handguns. I shoot handguns for fun, not punishment. I have levers in a 16" .32 Win and a 18" Marlin GG in .45-70 if I need "more power".

I do have .41's in a 4 5/8" Blackhawk and a ported 2 3/4" SS Taurus belly gun. I also have a 10mm in a Glock G20.

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#5608758 - 09/11/11 12:27 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: croldfort]
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: NW Louisiana
Thomas what gun do you like?

On the Tracker, had one. I sure wished in the past S&W would have done a 41 on an L frame, SS/4" or a GP100 by Ruger in 4"...

Trade off - 5 or 6 shots of 'more power' vs. up to triple on hand...

croldfort, give me your take between the Ruger Shorty and the G20...both handy and useful no doubt.

Heard some in Alaska carry the Glock for Bears...1300/200 sounds very interesting - can't expect much more in an auto short of a Wildey in AutoMag. Too heavy and I'd imagine a good bit of back thrust and muzzle rise to boot.
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#5608783 - 09/11/11 12:35 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18513
Loc: USA


A Wildey and an Automag are not one and the same
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Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


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#5609205 - 09/11/11 03:13 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: jwp475]
ARG Offline
Member

Registered: 06/06/10
Posts: 41
Loc: Middle USA
Having both, my 41 gets far more use than the 10mm. I have taken hogs with both, and found I didn't need the higher capacity of a semi, so to me that took the 10mm out of the mix compared to my 41. The 10 worked fine, but I reload all my rounds, and find 41 much easier to load for, plus cheaper components doesn't hurt. I also can shoot farther with my 41, which is nice when deer season rolls around. I have never lost a deer with my 41, and lately it has replaced my 30-30 in use out to ~125 yards. For me, a hunter and steel shooter, the 41 wins hand down based on versatility and cost per round.

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#5609222 - 09/11/11 03:18 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70185
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: 65BR
Not looking to compare ballistics, BTDT.

Curious what you guys who have used both have to say about these two.

Factory ammo more ltd in 10mm?

Like to hear from those who have taken deer/hogs or larger game w/10mm.

Thanks for replies.
Naturally, the .41 can be loaded hotter, and with heavier bullets having superior sectional density.
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#5609424 - 09/11/11 04:25 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
RoninPhx Offline
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Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 6995
Loc: arizona
just out of curiousity went back and looked at some of my notes.
out of a buckeye shooter blackhawk in 10mm:
with 200 grain xtp And AA#9
1.1318
2.1302
3.1305
4.1290
5.1301
6.1295fps
out of a redhawk .41magnum with a 215 grain bullet
1.1289
2.1381
3.1173
4.1285
5.1277
6.1242 fps different powder in the redhawk, and cast bullet
I got to thinking about this a little more, and i would summarize it this way. With the .41, you can use much heavier bullets than the 10mm. With the 10mm, you can go down to 135 grain, but i haven't seen any 250 grain like with the .41mag. And the 10mm casing is just more efficient.


Edited by RoninPhx (09/11/11 07:07 PM)
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#5611795 - 09/12/11 12:27 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: NW Louisiana
JWP, yeah, should have typed Wildey OR AMP.

Good info there on the loads for 10mm.

I watched a youtube vid of deer kills w/Glocks in 10 and 45 and with spine shots the 10 was very effective, DRT, but many ran w/little signs of being hit, not sure how far they ran, NOR more importantly what bullet was used.

I'd reckon a flat tippped heavy in a 10 would give the most 'shock effect' or good energy transfer showing more reaction on hits. Maybe not, but I'd expect it. I am thinking those kills were likely done using 180 HPs but just a guess.

No doubt 210s are proven in 41s and the heavier and wider slugs only seem to do better...assuming chamber length houses them and the twist is fast enough for the weight. I know mfg. vary twist rates.

A 250 +/- seems potent in a 41.
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#5612299 - 09/12/11 02:59 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
You don't have to worry about heavies, as in 250-305 grain bullets, in a .41 Magnum. I shoot many 300s in my guns and with full loads, as in 19.0 grains of H110 they stabilize just fine. One of the posters over on the S&W forum was saying one day that a Smith would not stabilize a 300 grain bullet because the twist was too slow... I posted several pics of 50 yard groups from a 6" 657 and a 5.5" Gary Reeder Custom Ruger and the holes were nice and round and about 3" groups...

One question on the 10mm when used with heavy loads in revolvers...are the any bullet pull issues since the bullet cant be roll crimped?

Bob
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#5612477 - 09/12/11 04:00 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
THOMASMAGNUM Offline
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Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 7472
Loc: Arizona
Originally Posted By: 65BR
Thomas what gun do you like?

On the Tracker, had one. I sure wished in the past S&W would have done a 41 on an L frame, SS/4" or a GP100 by Ruger in 4"...



I am running a NM Blackhawk. I had swapped the 4 5/8" barrel for 7 1/2" at one point to pick up some speed, but I didn't like the way it handled.
I'd love to find one of the 4" Redhawk that used to be offered...

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#5612529 - 09/12/11 04:21 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 21865
Loc: Oklahoma
Two legged critters....10MM
Four legged critters...41 Mag.

I like them both smile

Gunner
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#5613045 - 09/12/11 06:20 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
chlinstructor Offline
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Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 6382
Loc: TX
That's pretty much the same results & conclusion I came up with in all my testing with both calibers. I love my Model 57 S&W but I usually end up carring my Glock 20 with the 200XTP bullet with AA-9 because of the round capacity or my Kimber 10mm because of size & still more rounds than my Model 57...
Originally Posted By: RoninPhx
just out of curiousity went back and looked at some of my notes.
out of a buckeye shooter blackhawk in 10mm:
with 200 grain xtp And AA#9
1.1318
2.1302
3.1305
4.1290
5.1301
6.1295fps
out of a redhawk .41magnum with a 215 grain bullet
1.1289
2.1381
3.1173
4.1285
5.1277
6.1242 fps different powder in the redhawk, and cast bullet
I got to thinking about this a little more, and i would summarize it this way. With the .41, you can use much heavier bullets than the 10mm. With the 10mm, you can go down to 135 grain, but i haven't seen any 250 grain like with the .41mag. And the 10mm casing is just more efficient.


Edited by chlinstructor (09/13/11 02:21 AM)
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#5613107 - 09/12/11 06:31 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
chlinstructor Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/09/11
Posts: 6382
Loc: TX
BTW, I also have the Ruger Buckeye Special in 10mm/38-40 & I love that gun!!! And to clarify my load testing data on 10mm vs .41 mag, I am using a 220gr LFN LBT Hardcast bullets in my 41 mag. Also use a 250gr WFN LBT bullet but they just have too much recoil! I might as well step up to my Ruger Custom Clements Super Blackhawk in 44 mag with 280gr or 300gr WFN LBT bullets if I want a heavier load with less recoil. My Model 57 S&W is much lighter than my Super Blackhawk 44, thus more recoil. And the 10mm load using 200gr XTP bullets & AA-9 is much more managable on the recoil out of my Glock 20. Not to mention 1 magazine carries 15 rounds.... grin


Edited by chlinstructor (09/12/11 06:34 PM)
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#5614224 - 09/13/11 04:44 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18513
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: RoninPhx
just out of curiousity went back and looked at some of my notes.
out of a buckeye shooter blackhawk in 10mm:
with 200 grain xtp And AA#9
1.1318
2.1302
3.1305
4.1290
5.1301
6.1295fps
out of a redhawk .41magnum with a 215 grain bullet
1.1289
2.1381
3.1173
4.1285
5.1277
6.1242 fps different powder in the redhawk, and cast bullet
I got to thinking about this a little more, and i would summarize it this way. With the .41, you can use much heavier bullets than the 10mm. With the 10mm, you can go down to 135 grain, but i haven't seen any 250 grain like with the .41mag. And the 10mm casing is just more efficient.



I shoot a 230 flat point hard cast out of my M-57, 4" that clocks about 1330 FPS and a 170 JHC that clocks 1536 FPS. The Rem factory 210 grainer clocks inthe mid 1300 FPS range also
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


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#5615052 - 09/13/11 09:54 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: HARDBALLER]
dougwx12 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 61
Originally Posted By: HARDBALLER
It all comes down to the platform. I only have experience with the 10. Have killed a black bear and a large mountain lion with mine.


Out of curiosity, what load, where did you hit, and what was the penetration?

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#5616543 - 09/13/11 06:08 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: dougwx12]
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: NW Louisiana
I do recall a fellow on another forum, dropped his large cougar using a Tracker 4" w/170 JHP Sierra's, mid range load around 1150-1200 mv IIRC.

Good info above guys. Bob, appreciate the twist comment also.
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#5616753 - 09/13/11 06:49 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
PPosey Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 2188
I have killed 2 hogs, a med sized 150 pounds deer, a couple large dogs and a few smaller critters with my glock in 10mm with a 6 inch ported barrel,,, that being said were I carrying a handgun just for hunting I'd go with a 41 or 44 mag, Passthroughs are rare it seems on hogs and deer with the 10mm if you hit a shoulder, on ribs they zip through, shot one hog in the shoulder and the ribs, 150 pound pig and the rib shot exited after hitting no ribs and the shoulder shot stuck on the inside of the off shoulder, pig died. Deer shot the 1st round hit behind the shoulder and lodged in the front of the chest, 2nd shot hit behind the ribs going away and disapeared in the gutpile,,,2nd pig died of a 10mm migrane and flopped right there. All shots taken with a factory winchester silvertip load, my carry load
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#5616768 - 09/13/11 06:51 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: chlinstructor]
PPosey Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 2188
Originally Posted By: chlinstructor
I handload for my 10mm & I'm getting 1300fps with the Hornady 200gr XTP bullet. It's basically a max load using AA9 powder.


Holly crap thats kicking butt,,,
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#5617167 - 09/13/11 08:26 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
RoninPhx Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 6995
Loc: arizona
Originally Posted By: RoninPhx
just out of curiousity went back and looked at some of my notes.
out of a buckeye shooter blackhawk in 10mm:
with 200 grain xtp And AA#9
1.1318
2.1302
3.1305
4.1290
5.1301
6.1295fps
out of a redhawk .41magnum with a 215 grain bullet
1.1289
2.1381
3.1173
4.1285
5.1277
6.1242 fps different powder in the redhawk, and cast bullet
I got to thinking about this a little more, and i would summarize it this way. With the .41, you can use much heavier bullets than the 10mm. With the 10mm, you can go down to 135 grain, but i haven't seen any 250 grain like with the .41mag. And the 10mm casing is just more efficient.


I thought i might add to the above for references sake:
this with a glock 20 10mm with hornady 180gr xtp and AA#7 first column is with a 6inch KKM barrel and the second column with a standard glock barrel
1. 1268 1167
2. 1265 1188
3. 1291 1198
4. 1263 1173
5. 1277 1178 feet per second on chrony

with a hornady 200gr xtp the first column a kkm regular barrel on a glock 20, the second a six inch length kkm barrel on a glock 20 using AA#9
1.1212 1298
2.1211 1285
3.1218 1266
4.1213 1283
5.1224 1265feet per second


Edited by RoninPhx (09/13/11 08:33 PM)
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#5617572 - 09/14/11 04:18 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
Originally Posted By: 65BR
I do recall a fellow on another forum, dropped his large cougar using a Tracker 4" w/170 JHP Sierra's, mid range load around 1150-1200 mv IIRC.

Good info above guys. Bob, appreciate the twist comment also.


I emailed with that guy who killed the cougar with the Tracker as I also have one of them and was interested in his load... It was pretty light and the bullet didn't hardly expand at all.

Most shooters don't realize that the Sierra HPs are made for hunting...as in high velocity impacts. The 170 .41s and 180 .44s don't "blow up" on impact as many think. I hit a deer in the chest coming almost straight on at 30' with a 180 .44 coming out of a 7.5" Redhawk. Velocity was 1700+- fps. Turned the heart to Jello and broke two ribs on the way out...a good 18" of penetration. Gary Reeder has used the 170 .41 in his .41 GNR (.44 Mag. necked down to .41) to take elk.


Bob
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#5617769 - 09/14/11 05:52 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RJM]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18513
Loc: USA


You are correct the Sierra bullets are deigned to pentrate and expansion is minimal. I like there bullets. The 170 in the 41 mag at 1500+ FPS is a very effective deer and anti personel bullet in experience and opinion
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


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#5618211 - 09/14/11 08:22 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: dougwx12]
caLvinkyle Offline
New Member

Registered: 09/14/11
Posts: 1
Originally Posted By: dougwx12
Originally Posted By: HARDBALLER
It all comes down to the platform. I only have experience with the 10. Have killed a black bear and a large mountain lion with mine.


Out of curiosity, what load, where did you hit, and what was the penetration?


Hahaha.. you are silly.

Seriously, it is a matter of experienced in a particular gun.
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#5618253 - 09/14/11 08:35 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: caLvinkyle]
dougwx12 Offline
Member

Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 61
Originally Posted By: caLvinkyle
Seriously, it is a matter of experienced in a particular gun.


Wow! I had no idea that simple experience could affect how deeply an XTP or hardcast would penetrate into bone and muscle. Until your post, I just thought it was simple physics!

Thanks internet, for clearing up that misconception.

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#5618549 - 09/14/11 10:33 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: jwp475]
gunner500 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 09/07/09
Posts: 21865
Loc: Oklahoma
Originally Posted By: jwp475


You are correct the Sierra bullets are deigned to pentrate and expansion is minimal. I like there bullets. The 170 in the 41 mag at 1500+ FPS is a very effective deer and anti personel bullet in experience and opinion


Not to hijack JWP, but I agree on the Sierras, 300 gn Sierras from an old 44 mag of mine penetrate like a danged solid, damn tough bullet.

Guner
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#5618856 - 09/14/11 12:04 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: gunner500]
RoninPhx Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 6995
Loc: arizona
reference the sierra 170grain JHC bullet in the .41 mag, hodgdens online is showing two max loads at 1887fps with different powders.
I haven't done that yet. I remember reading somewhere where a guy would buy those old cast iron skillets to shoot with that load just to watch them fly apart. Got to try that some time.
I do have some 10mm loads with a 135grain nosler that i haven't run through the chrony yet that should be quite speedy.


Edited by RoninPhx (09/14/11 12:05 PM)
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#5622501 - 09/15/11 02:44 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
Eremicus Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 18881
Loc: Placerville,CA,USA
The .41 Magnum does not run it's best with AA#9. That's why those velocities are so close. E

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#5622749 - 09/15/11 04:16 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Eremicus]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
H110/Win. 296 will run 170s to it's highest velocities with lowest pressures. I am also wondering about AA1680..also a ball powder that is just a little slower than H110. From a 20" carbine barrel the 170 will run 2100 fps with 26 grains of H110.... Will have to look at my notes to see what they were doing from handguns...

Bob

ps..try to find the cast iron skillets that are made in china...the ones made in the USA that can be cleaned up is about a $30 and up target...

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#5622820 - 09/15/11 04:34 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RJM]
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: NW Louisiana
Yeah, burned mostly 110 but a good bit of 296 as both were standby's in jacketed hi vel loads in 357/41/44s.

I do know the Fed 180/44 load spec'd at 1800, ran 1910 in a 10" contender I had back in college, on a chrony. Man that would get to 100 yd rams in a hurry!

Bob, no doubt, the 170 load that guy shot the cougar w/were on the very mild side, but goes to show you ...shot placement wins nearly every time...so long as you take out vitals, and he must have...nice cat I recall. Heck, even Stoney...SLG888 shot a big cat w/a 9, and it died...not sure he even knew what bullets, he finally hit it on the last shot IIRC, in his hi cap mag...no more bullets - all back at the truck!

I used to think my bulk 210 JSP RP bullets were GTG on deer and maybe black bear but heard since, some say they are rather 'soft'....that said, I have ALOT of XTPs....figure they may be tougher if I need something more for 'larger than deer' sized game.
_________________________
Rule #1 - Punch Vitals with a good bullet.
Rule #2 - See rule #1


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#5623002 - 09/15/11 05:19 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
Yea, as along as you put the round where it belongs, a .22 will take out most anything. If you look in the new Speer #14 Manual there is a picture of a guy with a big Kat using the 200 Speer JHP...that is a great penetration and hole cutter. Like a jacketed Keith bullet. This guys cougar was a BIG one also...

Don't think you are wrong about the 210 RSP being a very decent bullet. I know lots of people who have killed all manner of game with them. One of the guys over on the S&W Forums killed I think 23 deer in Alaska with his model 57 using the factory load...

If you want a bullet that will expand at all velocities use a 210 Speer Gold Dot HP...

950-1250-1400 fps...



And being a plated bullet it will never come apart. I fired one out of a .405 Winchester and hit a 2.5 gallon water jug...the bullet turned completely inside out but held together...don't know what I was thinking as the bullet was sitting there next to the jug, I looked at it and then threw it up on the bank...

Bob
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#5623045 - 09/15/11 05:29 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RJM]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
Searched for that guy who shot the Cat...

Dick Metcalf
Categories: Handguns

At the top of the Taurus Titanium Tracker lineup is a five-shot, four-inch .41 Mag. Model 425 Titanium Tracker in Shadow Gray finish. (Taurus also offers a same-scale seven-shot titanium .357 Mag. Model M627TT with four-inch or 6.5-inch barrel, and the four-inch Model 460 in .45 Colt.)

All Titanium Tracker models have titanium frames, sideplates, yokes and barrels that are drop-forged in Taurus's facility in Brazil. The titanium cylinders and titanium internal studs are CNC-machined from extruded bar stock. Since titanium is less than two-thirds the weight of an equivalent volume of steel, an all-titanium revolver actually weighs less than a same-size aluminum-frame/steel-cylinder revolver. The .41 Mag. Titanium Tracker weighs exactly 24 ounces--nearly a pound lighter than a Taurus Model 66SS .357 Mag.

As for durability, titanium comes as close to being indestructible as any manufactured material can be. Even the best stainless steel will eventually rust or corrode. Titanium will not.

The Tracker grips are the patented Taurus Ribber design, which I discussed in some detail in the September "Tech Corner." This grip, combined with the Tracker's integrally ported four-inch full-lug barrel, makes the gun genuinely comfortable to fire, even with full-power .41 Mag. ammunition. As an exercise, I've rapped five rapid-fire rounds of Winchester 240-grain Platinum Tips out of the gun just as fast as I could pull the trigger, and the ported barrel's quick recovery keeps them all in a 12-inch circle on a seven-yard target--which is as close as I'm inclined to let a mama bear get.

When you get right down to it, any of these new tools make pretty good primary handgun hunting tools, as well. I carried my Taurus .41 Mag. Tracker stuck in the cargo pocket of my Carharts up and down the Utah canyons for three days in two feet of snow a couple of winters ago, chasing cougars, and I never even had to think about it being there--until I pulled it out to drop a treed cat with a single shot.

On a belt in a nylon-fabric holster and loaded with aluminum-case CCI Blazer ammo, you'll literally have to touch it to remind yourself it's there. Pick whichever brand or model suits your fancy: These new lightweight, heavy-hitting belt guns leave no serious hunter with any excuse for not packing the security of a backup sidearm.
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#5623063 - 09/15/11 05:33 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RJM]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
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#5623886 - 09/15/11 09:03 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
RoninPhx Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 6995
Loc: arizona
Originally Posted By: RoninPhx
reference the sierra 170grain JHC bullet in the .41 mag, hodgdens online is showing two max loads at 1887fps with different powders.
I haven't done that yet. I remember reading somewhere where a guy would buy those old cast iron skillets to shoot with that load just to watch them fly apart. Got to try that some time.
I do have some 10mm loads with a 135grain nosler that i haven't run through the chrony yet that should be quite speedy.

two powders i was refering to was 110 and 296
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#5623908 - 09/15/11 09:09 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
RoninPhx Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/26/05
Posts: 6995
Loc: arizona
i am not sure that i like the idea of taurus porting the barrel of that revolver. I saw a 57 last year that somebody had done this to. Maybe it's just me.
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#5624151 - 09/16/11 02:10 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
The ports work fine...can't really tell the difference between a ported 4" and a non-ported 4" except on an indoor range where one can see the flash come out the ports. They do however noticeably reduce muzzle climb. In shooting a Model 58 with ports vs a 58 without the recovery time with the ported gun is less.

I have three Taurus .41s, two 4" and a 6", a 3" 657, 4" 58 with Quad-Ports, Freedom Arms 6" and a 60-10 .357 Magnum all ported and they are some of my favorite shooters...YMMV

Bob
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#5624152 - 09/16/11 02:12 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: RoninPhx]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
Originally Posted By: RoninPhx
Originally Posted By: RoninPhx
reference the sierra 170grain JHC bullet in the .41 mag, hodgdens online is showing two max loads at 1887fps with different powders.
I haven't done that yet. I remember reading somewhere where a guy would buy those old cast iron skillets to shoot with that load just to watch them fly apart. Got to try that some time.
I do have some 10mm loads with a 135grain nosler that i haven't run through the chrony yet that should be quite speedy.

two powders i was refering to was 110 and 296


Same powder different can....Bob
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#5624582 - 09/16/11 07:00 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Eremicus]
Whitworth1 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 1399
Loc: Virginia
Originally Posted By: Eremicus
Maybe, Kevin. The hottest pressure tested loads I can find for the 10mm run about 1150-1170 fps. with a 200 gr. bullet.
In the 41 Magnum, 210 gr. loads with slightly longer barrels run 1400-1425 fps.
As far as penetration goes, I've punched through 3 end to end 2.5 gal water jugs with Double Taps 200 gr. wide flat points in the 10. That's what the standard swagged lead loads from the .44 Magnum do. The same stuff Elmer Keith used to shoot through the frontal plates on big range bulls. Just what anyone would need more penetration for is beyond me. E


If you have a 10mm and don't reload, look no further than Double Tap. One of their 200 grain loads goes a claimed 1,275 fps, while the other goes 1,300 fps. Double Tap as a business was started in response to the emasculation of the 10mm by ammo manufacturers.
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#5626717 - 09/16/11 07:58 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Whitworth1]
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: NW Louisiana
Thanks Bob, I was thinking someone else besides DM also had killed a cat that posted in a thread on AR in the past few years, could not locate it but do recall it was a Taurus and he used 170s (though handloads) at a mild 1100-1200 range.

No matter. Good info on the Gold Dots, read a good review on them in 357 for rifles in 158gr for larger game. Looks like the 210 JSP are fine for deer.

Any idea on how the XTPs penetrate/retain.

Thanks again.
_________________________
Rule #1 - Punch Vitals with a good bullet.
Rule #2 - See rule #1


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#5627063 - 09/17/11 03:37 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
RJM Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4508
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
...on the XTPs....my guess would be that they will penetrate much better than the Gold Dots but maybe not as far as the Remington SPs when the velocity is equal.

All of the .41/210s have the same sectional density so it is going to be a matter of how fast they open up slowing down penetration.

Gold Dots open up very fast. Those bullets above were caught in the second to third gallon jugs of water. Compare the diameter of the HP to any other HP...even if that nose doesn't open up it has a meplat the size of most hardcast bullets to work with.

Fired on the same day this 200 grain Speer HP ran through 6 jugs of water, one 3/4" sheet of marine plywood and the stuck in the face of the second sheet. Nose expanded and peeled off in the first two jugs and then it just became a flying ashcan...



Most HPs can't penetrate like this because they keep expanding....I miss this bullet and the 146/.357 and 225/.44. The machine that made these since the 1960s wore out a few years ago and the decision was made not to retool... Long time friend Alan Jones who was editor of the Speer reloading manual gave me a tour of the factory in 2003. When I suggested that Speer add a .45 to that line of bullets he warned me that once the machine was beyond repair the whole line was history...and so it came to pass a few years later. I spoke to Corbin and they said if I supplied a bullet they would make a die to duplicate it...maybe one day...

Bob
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#5627900 - 09/17/11 11:49 AM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Whitworth1]
Eremicus Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 18881
Loc: Placerville,CA,USA
I do reload. What I've found is that, due to the 10's small case, it can go critical very easily.
I'm really impressed with double Tap's 200 gr. wide flat point bullet and their quick, friendly serice. The 200 gr. ammo, however apparently clocks about 1150 fps.
There is some less than full power ammo out there. Federal's HydraShok ammo is only loaded to about 980 fps with their 180 gr. bullet. Reminnton's UMC 180 gr. FMJ and CCI's aluminium cased stuff is also loaded light. But the premium stuff like that from Hornady and Winchester appears to be right where it needs to be. E

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#5628443 - 09/17/11 04:34 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: Eremicus]
Whitworth1 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 1399
Loc: Virginia
E, maybe your gun is slow. It's possible. I have chronographed a lot of different loads from DT and they usually exceed the claimed velocities.
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#5629285 - 09/17/11 10:27 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
MontanaMan Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 9296
Actually a little hard to compare the 2...........if one want's a revolver, get the 41; if a semi-auto is preferred, get the 10mm.

The 10mm can never really equal the 41, when the 41 is loaded to its potential, especially with heavier bullets.

I've killed a number of deer with the 41 in a S&W M-57; don't have a 10mm & really see no need for one. The 41 works just fine given a decent chance.

For hunting, I think a revolver is much superior to a semi-auto, thus the 41 is my choice. For SD, I'm happy with the 45 ACP & have no desire or need for a 10mm.

YMMV

MM

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#5630705 - 09/18/11 01:39 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: MontanaMan]
65BR Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/22/07
Posts: 12147
Loc: NW Louisiana
Well they do make 10s in the 610 S&W, but not my thing, love the 610 4" config, but wish that were a 657 wink Not interested in moon clips.

Sure the 41 has more capacity, though running an auto, you save the lost gas on a wheelgun cylinder gap.

Comparing ballistics is like doing S&S scope comparisons....some will Win the test over....yet odds are perhaps they will all do a good job.

MM- agree the 41 is more gun. Just wondering how sure a killer is that 10 w/best of loads and good shot placement...on deer/hogs.

In 45, what load do you like btw for defense? Thanks.
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Rule #1 - Punch Vitals with a good bullet.
Rule #2 - See rule #1


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#5631896 - 09/18/11 07:54 PM Re: 10mm vs. 41 mag [Re: 65BR]
MontanaMan Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 9296
Originally Posted By: 65BR


In 45, what load do you like btw for defense? Thanks.


For CCW carrying, it's either 230 gr. Federal HydraShoks or 200 gr +P Speer Gold Dots.

For handloading, I use:

230 Bullets........5.0 gr of SOLO 1000 or 7.5 gr of Power Pistol for around 850 FPS

200 Gr bullets......5.3 gr of SOLO 10000 or 8.0 gr of Power Pistol for around 950 FPS (SOLO 1000 is very low flash)

For legal reasons, I prefer to use factory ammo in my carry guns.

MM

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