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LRS guys are saying the animals are doing nothing significant, are at rest, have no idea whats going on, and when hit at extreme ranges, it falls on the spot....
<br>Well, isn't that what a steel gong, or paper target, does at those ranges?
<br>The difference is, the steel gong, paper target, etc, won't decide to run off when hit improperly, regardless of the shooter's intent, experience, ability, specialized equipment, etc. They have NO control over what may happen.
<br>Ethics are not involved in shooting gongs/paper targets, etc.
<br>So, why bother to do LRS at live animals? Its not hunting, as no hunting is involved.
<br>Ego? Bragging rights? Some sort of "high" playing with a higher element of risk?
<br>What is this about?
<br>~~~Suluuq

What's it about?It's about something you don't understand.If you don't like it .Tough!!!!!We are NOT going away.....Give it up man....You will not win this one...It has been explained to people like you more than once.Some get it.........You don't.....Thick headed I guess.....I suppose you think hunting hunting over bait is ethical?How about hunting deer with dog's?It is closed minded people like you that give's ALL the hunting sport's a bad name.....I FEEL SORRY FOR YOU...Good day....And may god be with you.....

(Edited: Sorry, I took so long to write this that it's no longer the first response as it was intended. Next time I'll type faster )
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<br>Okay, I'll bite.
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<br> I'll assume that LRS means Long Range Shooters something you've changed from Long Range Hunters as you feel long range is not hunting.
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<br> There are several variants of Long Range Hunting, there are different types of equipments for these variants. One thing that is common between the variants is that animals are hunted and killed.
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<br> Is it true that in the majority of LRH cases the animal has no idea there is a hunter nearby? True
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<br> Is it therefore true that these animals are going about their daily life, doing things they do when no human is hunting them? True
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<br> Do undisturbed animals feed calmly, lay down and just enjoy the day, or are they constantly running about nervously checking every tree and rock.
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<br> Do you think that animals know what a rifle is? Do you think they know that they've been shot. Do you think that they can comprehend that fact that a bullet has passed through their body?
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<br> Why do animals flee? Do they do so to escape an enemy or threat? Would an animal perceive a pain in their chest as a threat or would they think that it's just another pain in their chest like all the others they've possibly had.
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<br> Are they frightened by noise? If so, why don't they run around, going somewhere at the clap of thunder or the crash of a falling tree?
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<br> In the majority of cases, as directly observed by me, animals shot at long range typically move a short distance and die on their feet or lay down and die. They seem to do this as long as there is no danger perceived by the individual or any member of the group. If one member of a group/herd begins a helter skelter dash the rest may follow but this is very seldom the case and I've only observed this on herds of WhiteTail deer customarily shot at ranges in the 300 to 500 yard area.
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<br> I've seen deer lick and bite themselves to clean themselves and remove flies and other insects. Sometimes they'll even bolt ahead a few feet or run a short distance but this is usually telegraphed by their switching tail. I sometimes see actions very similar to this when the animal is shot, they sometimes bolt a few feet and look back as if to see the whatever that "bit" them. They rarely if ever react to the sound of the gunshot if the distance is great enough (this distance seems to be an individual trait but generally about 400 yards is enough for a new deer herd). Sometimes they'll begin to lick the wound while standing if there is time before death or lay down as if they are suddenly tired or analyzing the new experience.
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<br>You're correct in that we have no control or how the animals will react when shot, this is exactly the same as any other hunter. The difference is that the animals we shoot at LR have generally been observed for a longer period of time and often the guy with the more experience observing animals in their natural state has a better understanding of how they react and what they (the animals) consider to be danger.
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<br>The definition of hunting is as personal as ethics. When I hunt (as in hunt to kill), I go into the field with a rifle or other hunting implement. I do this to locate the/a game animal I intend to kill. The distance has nothing to do with the reason I go hunting. If I'm just out scouting, I'm still hunting but I don't intend to kill something, I take along a rifle or whatever just in case I happen upon a worthy trophy or meat animal.
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<br> Do I sometimes not get an animal during a hunt? Yes, sometimes I choose not to shoot and sometimes I don't see an animal I consider worthy, sometimes I don't see an animal at all. Is my success rate high that other hunters? I'd say yes, it is, and it's because I can confidently take the shots that other hunters only dream about. Does this make me special or someone to be shunned? I don't think so but others do, some folks shun me and other want to learn how it's done. I'm not too terrible concerned with being shunned but I do get excite when folks won't be open minded enough to see that it's just the same as what everyone else is doing only just a little further. Each hunting trip I'm comfronted by someone, usually it's initally a skeptic, after the hunt I'm aften asked to teach folks how it's done and afterward they're very pleased with the outcome.
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<br>Why do I hunt long range (my variant of Long Range Hunting)? I hunt this way because I can, it's been built into the way I hunt, it's second nature to me. I position myself where I can observe the most likely spots that an animal may appear. One of these spots may only be a few yards from my position, the furthest spot may be 1000 yards away. I watch all these sites where the animals appear or move through, why shouldn't I, they're all in range.
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<br>Sure, I can stalk a deer or an elk and shoot it a 3 feet, it's difficult and a rewarding accomplishment. But, If I happen to see a B&C class deer or elk at 700 yards while I'm stalking another or possibly the same critter why not shoot it? Do I need to get inside ??? distance to make it legitimate and rewarding, I think not.
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<br>Maybe it's not been addressed, but just because a Long Range Hunter can shoot long range dosen't mean he also dosen't shoot short range, we're still hunters.
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<br>You mention a high element of risk. I'm not sure if you intend that to mean the risk to losing an animal or the risk or missing the shot. I'n either case the risk is minimized by experience, practice and an understanding of the limitations of the situation.
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<br>LRH is not something one just takes up a rifle and does. It's a learned process with many variations and lessons. The equipment is often specialized or a modified form the standard hunter's equipment. The lessons include, marksmanship, animal behavior, tracking, scouting, ballistics, and more. Pretty much the same things as standard deep woods hunting but with little changes to meet the requirements of greater distances and follow-up time(s).
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Hi Dave King.....Glad to see you join the fight......A word of advice however,They do like to hit below the belt.A protective cup IS recommended...................:)

Hey Boyd...I don't know you...but based on that post, I don't want to.
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<br>Dave, that was a very well written reply. Thanks for taking the time to explain it to someone who hasn't been part of this discussion before.
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<br>Suluug: You seem to be replying to something posted somewhere else that I haven't seen, so apologies if I am missing the point, but isn't the whole point of stalking to get close enough to an animal to make a clean kill?
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<br>My limit at pulling the trigger on deer sized game is about 150 yards under most conditions. If I have a clear shot to take the game cleanly at 150, why would I try to get to 15? If I'm hunting that means I'm taking the first sure shot I have. I'm there to take the animal, not play games with them.
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<br>Now don't get me wrong. Some guys have no business shooting beyond 50 yards, let alone 500. If some sicko lets the game walk at 20 so he can try to hit it at 2000, he doesn't deserve a license. And if he is only 90% sure he can make the shot he shouldn't try, but IF these guys know from experience that they can ring the gong 100 out of 100 under the same conditions, why not take the animal at the first clean shot opportunity regardless of the distance?
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Dave King... Thanks for sharing. Boyd decided to call me "thick headed" and "closed-minded". Understand this, one does not need to be what he called me to have the views I have. Common sense tells of it.
<br>I simply do not agree with the way LRS do their "hunts". I question this method simply because I feel it's not necessarily the best thing to be doing, shooting at live animals at extreme ranges.
<br>Its possible that MORE can happen during the bullet's flight time, then if it were closer. I'm sure at least you can agree with this notion. Your experience, and that of other LRS, is taken into account here, but the higher element of risk (ie a wounded animal making off for longer periods of time to suffer) is still not justified, in my opinion. Simply you have no control over what the animal may decide to do at any given time, regardless of the ability, experiecne, etc. one may have.
<br>A lot of whats in my above post, concerning the simularities to target shooting and live animal shooting at extreme ranges, still stands. At least thats how I see it.
<br>Here's wishng you all the best. Enjoy your method of hunting. ~~~Suluuq

Rusty-Gunn
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<br> You're welcome.
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<br> I have no problem with your ideals and values and share some of your concerns. A very big part of Long Range Hunting is analyzing the situation(s), questionable shots are to be avoided but mistakes do happen.
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<br> One thing that I haven't seen mentioned on this site is the differing LRH techniques and ranges typically involved.
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<br> If you'll bear with me a bit I'll mention a few variations.
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<br> There are the heavier "carry" rifle folks, these type often shoot from the prone position and sometimes don't travel in pairs (shooter & spotter). The ranges are typically limited to the 1000 yard maximum area (+ or - a few hundred). The rifles used for this are not terrible different than a heavy varmint or sniper rifle. I'll label these fellas Standard Long Range Hunters (SLRH)
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<br> There are the bench style (3 legged tripod or 4 legged bench) folks. These folks will use the heavy varmint style rifles too but also use very heavy "bench" style guns. These fellas shoot to 2500 to 3000 yards depending on caliber and conditions. They are a team type shooter and use a pair of folks. I'll label these folks Ultra Long Range Hunters (ULRH)
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<br> There is not a division or squabble in our ranks the distinction is to help you understand the equipment and techniques of the two major (as I see it) groups.
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<br> These are generalizations:
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<br> The SLRH are hard to distinquish from a standard hunter when afield, there may be a few bits of extra equipment, a LASER, a Sand Sock, a bipod or a notebook, just some little "extra" piece of gear and a heavier looking rifle.
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<br> The ULRH would be easily distinquished, bench or tripod, big-eyes, positioned on a prominent point or overlook.
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<br> The SLRH's generally don't have the commanding view that the ULRH's have (in many cases but not all).
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<br> The position we LRH's setup in and the distances we shoot are determined by our safety/comfort factor.
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<br>We're not about loosing or wounding animals, we're no different than any other concerned hunter.
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<br> Don't get the idea that we ALWAYS hunt and shoot long range, it's a tool that we have and that we sometimes use.
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<br> Things that are needed to be safe and enable us to retrieve animals are practiced and learned. Finding the location of an animal shot ar long(er) range is not like those of the standard hunting method. Shooter and animal positions are marked by various methods or a spotter stay at the shooting site and directs the retreival folks. Many times the shooter or spotter actually see the animal fall it it's the type critter that decides to move after being shot. The time taken to get to the animals location it to the hunter's advantage and the non-alarmed animal will bed down and not make a mad-scared dash for safety.
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<br>I can't include enough info to give you the assurances that we're responsible in our methods, just be aware that we are generally are a very responsible lot and not a bunch of shoot crazed folks.
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<br>Thanks for you understanding and time.
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<br> /respectfully
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RG,
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<br>Dave, has it pretty much right, well basically he hit the nail on the head. The LRH's here prior to Dave ( me included ) have gotten so badgered that we have all our defense mechanisms in place. Honestly I think you can't blame us.
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<br>I for one am the SLRH. DC is the ULRH. We both have similar interests and goals but I have many years before I can accomplish what DC does.
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<br>THe objective is hunting. The goal is long range or extreme range. BUT that doesn't always happen.
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<br>For instance, I have lotsa Coyotes behind my place. I called a few here and there, I found a pack on some older deer ready to kill a smaller 1 year old doe... the lead Coyote started in on the the small doe from about 150 yards from her. The others started to circle. I anchored the lead Yote after he paused about 125 yards from the small doe. He was 558 yards from me. After the shot the other Coyotes were to concerned the leader wasn't moving that the deer moved off the mountain to my pastures, to live another day.
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<br>Last night same thing but it all happend at about 60 yards.... This time I didn't kill anything but a warning shot infront of the Yote had the same effect.. the small doe lives another day...
<br>I realize we do need Yotes but I have thinned that pack enough.
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<br>I know I know I can't play with mother nature. See I have this affection for this doe, she was born on the back of our property really really late spring almost early summer.. I want her to make it to summer.... awwww the big nasty LRH has a heart.. yes it is true....

Dave... Thank you for the run-down. Although I am gaining more insight into the methods used, I'm not quite willing to give-in, as I still don't feel comfortable with some aspects of it. enjoy. ~~~Suluuq

Rusty-Gunn
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<br> You're welcome.
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<br> Again, I have no problem with you or your position, it's entirely natural to have reservations.
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<br> There are things that some hunters do that I find uncomfortable too, When I'm around those types I also often discuss the/those issues. Sometimes it gets a little exciting most often not, it depends on their tolerance for being scutinized/studied. Most times I find the differences to be regionalized variations and an adapation to "fill the pot", many are left over from earlier days and harder times. Most times I enjoy the diversity and opportunity to exchange info and meet new folks.
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<br>/r
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I'm with Rusty Gunn, this day and age, the meat really isn't needed, why take a chance of wounding a living creature when a target would show positive results. I have to believe it's nothing but an ego trip, look what I did type thing. A bear will run from bee stings, don't tell this old hunter a deer or elk with a leg shot off won't leave the country, especially in hunting season when they are jumped constantly. All I see here is smoke rings trying to justify. Anyone disagree and immediately they are attacked as not knowing anything because they haven't done it. I haven't jumped off the roof but know the outcome if I did. Been hunting big game for 50 years, collecting guns for 60, shooting for 65. Handloaded for many years, was a warden in NM for awhile, been to two Texas goat ropings and a rodeo. Smelled a lot of smoke, even the funny kind they had in Dallas awhile back. Any you guys from Dallas? -- no

Need One
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<br> This is meant in a light tone, not a clenched fist ear biting response.
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<br> Perhaps you have confused me with someone that likes failure. When I shoot at an animal I do so with the full intentions of killing it, first shot. I'm not interested at all in shooting dozens of creatures in the hopes of eventually finding one.
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<br> No ego trip, only experience and practice.
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<br> Lets look at your bear and bee stings example. How far will the bear run? Until he's in the next county or only until the bees stop/subside and he feels safe/comfortable. Does he look back to see if they are following or does he run helter skelter in a non particular direction or toward a safe place or just a short distance as he's learned will be sufficient?
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<br> I'm not terribly familiar with elk but quite familiar with whitetail deer. How far will they (deer) run with a broken leg? Until the leg heals or until they feel safe? Do they have a territory or do they run for miles in hopes of outrunning the unseen enemy.
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<br> I don't believe deer can formulate a plan for action prior to an event outside their experience. They react in a specific manner, they flee danger not pain (pain as they perceive it). If the pain is not known to be caused by an external agent they don't flee. Have you ever witnessed an obviously injured deer that wasn't running or fleeing? Why was it stopped if pain is the cause for fleeing?
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<br> I have not attacked anyone, only related what I have seen and experienced as related to the pertinent question/discussion.
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<br> No justification, I shoot and hunt the way I do because it's productive for me. This is also the method you use I believe, productive and practiced.
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<br> The distance I shoot is only that which is required to kill the quarry. I don't back up to make the distance further, I don't setup to shoot any further than I need to. I do however, setup in position to provide the greatest opportunity for success. The closer the distance the better I like it but I won't pass on a long distance shot that I know I can comfortably and confidently make, same as you no doubt (distances may vary depending on operator).
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<br> I have no quarrel with anyone here, I only answer the questions as presented. I have no motivation to relate falsehoods or exaggerations.
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<br> Experience is a wonderful thing and it's useful. It's seemingly apparent that you have considerable experience at what you do with all the years you've stated. I too have considerable experience with what I do and it's just as valid as your's but it's in a different environment.
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<br> There are many types of basic personal traits, some folks are optimists and then there are the pessimists, there are time oriented folks and task oriented types. I have been described as a task oriented person and am by my own evaluation an optimist. I have structured my life around these traits and it effects the way I do things. Each event is a task at which I expect to succed, failure is a difficult thing for me (as it is for most folks). I practice and perform tasks with rigid and trained repeatability, I can't dance worth a damn but I can shoot very well.
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<br>I haven't been posting on this site for very long and only post here in an effort to offer my experience in long range shooting and hunting, the forum we're posting in right now. I do this expecting nothing in return and don't expect to be belittled for the manner in which I practice these endeavors. I often meet new people (face to face) while shooting and hunting and I've not had any difficulty with them over hunting practices or ethics. It's only on these forums that things go poorly and folks get bent out of shape. I believe it's only the perception of what others think I do while hunting rather than the actual event that occur during my hunting expeditions.
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<br> I believe folks have the idea that I guess at the distance to the critter and then pick a seemingly appropriate spot in the sky over the critter as the needed elevation and let lead fly. This is not at all the case, distances for successful long range shots must be know prior to the shot. There is no "hold over", the actual scope adjustment data is readily availiable to me for any distance I've practiced and am ready to shoot. The rifle(s) is/are custom made and very accurate as is the ammunition.
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<br> No, I'm not blowing smoke. What I'm doing is posting into the Long Range Hunting section of this forum, a section specifically set aside for Long Range Hunting in an apparent attempt to get specifics about this aspect of hunting.
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<br> I believe the folks that have the greatest opposition to the true Long Range Hunters are those that have an incorrect preconceived notion that we're the guys that fling "hail Mary's" at critters in the hopes of eventually/someday getting our first deer/elk. The real truth in most cases is far from this incorrect assumption.
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<br> What are you doing? Contributing to the Long Range Hunting forum with positive productive posts or trying to belittle something that when the truth be told you may have insufficient or little actual knowledge? Are you posting only emotional, prejudiced and secondhand knowledge information or useful firsthand info..
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<br> The contributions to this forum are based on the respondents, knowledge and experience are probably more beneficial than emotional outbursts and incorrect presuppositions.
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<br> This is the reason there is a safe haven at www.LongRangeHunting.Com. More information and less emotional banter.
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Dear Mr. King,
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<br>I will be the first to admit you are very professional in your response. I could relate to your answers down to the final paragraphs when it became apparent you have used this many times before to calm the flood of criticism of shooting animals at extreme distance. You and I both know with distance, in the field, there are many, many, different obstacles to overcome shooting a mentalic smokeless powder powered projectile. Not to mention the whims of mother nature with temperature, barometric pressure, humidity, wind, light, mirage, along with the human elements which are the greatest problem with our reflexes,(eye hand coordination), how the rifle is held at each shot, temperature of barrel and cartridge, (at the actual shooting spot), angle of shot, and on and on. All this must be in coordination at each shot for best results. Most can be overcome by man but NOT mother nature OR the animal it's self. A 1000 yard or longer shot, the amimal can move at the touch of the trigger resulting in a wounded animal. YES, I have read all the claims from both sides BUT I live in the real world and have seen what really happens in the field to humans and the animals they hunt.
<br>Many are interested in long range shooting, (myself included), but we question shooting at a live creature for your personal enjoyment when a target would show the result without chance of causing a slow painfull death. Just like wearing seat belts to protect yourself, don't take the shot to protect the animal. Now I'm sure there will be a defiance from the LRH for the comparison. Yes, this board was created for the LRHs, I suggested it be moved here from the Campfire and Rick being the great webmaster he is saw the need, Amen!
<br>I can understand why the board you came from is monitored with an iron fist. Did it ever occur to the LRH with all the opposition from your fellow hunters you may be doing something wrong? Why do you have to shoot at a live creature at extended ranges when a plain target would gain you all the support you want? JMHO -- no

I've been in many discussions about long range hunting, this is true. The responses are as neutral as I feel necessary to reduce the defensive response of other folks. The response to you in my previous post is original, I've never used it before and probably will never use it again. It's a direct result of your post and questions. I don't have a stockpile of responses and pull one from inventory as needed, I reply as many other do, from the cuff. If the response sounds/appears pre-made it's perhaps because I spend a good deal of time studying, talking and practicing this style of shooting, it's natural to me and I fairly well versed in some aspects of it.
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<br> Environmentals as you mention are an obstacle but not an insurmountable obstacle. Sufficient accuracy can be achieved by a practiced shooter with verified data.
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<br> I personally have never shot at an animal beyond 1000 yards as that is too far for my equipment, style and practice. The furthest I've shot a big game animal is 905 yards, I am not an Ultra Long Range hunter. The rifles I use are just heavy hunting rifles.
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<br> The real world you live in is the same one I live in, no difference. I don't know if you've ever seen the accuracy the can be achieved shooting from a bipod and a rear rest but it's plenty accurate for large critters to considerable distances.
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<br> You are the one implying that I shoot at live animals for my personal pleasure. I hunt for the same reasons other folks hunt, to bag the game animal either for meat or trophy. I am telling you that I am hunting in a manner that includes the possibility of shooting animals at distances further than most hunters shoot. For me, and I speak only for me in this statement, there is no difference whether I shoot the critter at 10 feet or 600 yards, the task is to kill the critter, it's not about the distance of the shot. I don't belong to a club that gives out pins/patches for distance. I hunt the way I hunt because it's effective and I complete the task
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<br> I do shoot targets and I shoot targets further and far more often than I shoot animals. I shoot in competitions at times and I sometimes win, I do enjoy winning.
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<br> I'm having a difficult time convincing you that I have no intention of wounding an animal and that the shots I take are with the confidence gained through years of practice and experience. It's a simple matter to me, I shoot when I'm sure I'll be able to kill the animal, why would it be any other way. If I somehow derived pleasure from wounding animals and chasing the poor things around the countryside it'd be a lot easier than how I'm doing it now.
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<br> The greatest discord comes from the folks that have somehow turned responsible long range hunting into something it is not. It is not any more wrong to shoot animals at long range and kill them than it is to shoot them at short ranges and kill them. It is wrong to embark upon an endeavor that will wound animals, it matters not the range.
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<br> Again, you mention the long shot is the culmination of the event, and I'm telling you that for me it's not.
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<br> Yes, the LRH Forum that many of us posting here have frequented is managed with an iron fist, it's done in that manner so that useful, technical information can be delivered and received in an environment conducive to productivity. This forum has a lot of traffic, imagine if all the traffic was for the exchange of technical information rather than the smoothing over of mismatched perceptions.
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<br> I guess the only way to put it in just a few words is as follows. (Relative to the several posts we've been through)
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<br> I shoot animals within distances that I feel confident that I can make a killing shot. I practice at distances up to and beyond the distances I shoot these animals. Once I feel that I have sufficient practice, expertise and data for a given distance I will shoot animals to that distance. I am as responsible as any other hunter you would happen across. My practice involves the same shooting positions I use in the field, I don't shoot from a bench at practice and then shoot off-hand in the field, the practice and field positions are the same.
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<br> I can't see any difference in this regard whether the person has a personal limit of 150 yards or 600 yards.
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<br> Please consider that of the many hundreds of big game animals I've shot over the years (mostly deer), most were shot at distances in the 100 yard area, long range is a tool I have but it's not the only tool I have/use.
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<br> I truly desire to provide technical and factual information as I have acquired from my practice, reading and experience. I have no intention to foster inappropriate acts or falsehoods.
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<br> You have considerable years of experience and I'm sure you've met numerous folks in your lifetime. I would hope that every once in a while you've met someone that is proper and offering factual information. I would like to believe that eventually you'll see that I'm one of those type folks. I invite you to browse the posts at the LongRangeHunting site and think about the information, you may find out that many of us are just hunters, quirky, but hunters.
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<br> I'm sure we'll talk again, and I'd like to think it'd be about things related to LRH and animal behavior and not regarding the questioning of morals and ethics (I hope you can begin to believe I'm as ethical as any responsible hunter). If you wish to talk on the phone, call me on my cell and I'll call you back, I have a lot of prepaid long distance and I would enjoy opportunity to verbally discuss these issues. (301) 908-7970
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<br>Sorry for the abrupt ending, I was interrupted.
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Mr. King,
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<br>You would do well to educate your fellow LRS in communication with the public. As for me, I will never take a shot at extended ranges for big game. The risk is too great, and as you know, is not needed. Most game is killed less then 200 yards, why take a shot past 350 yards,(when conditions allow), when the possibilities of a miss increase so dramatically. I am sure with special equipment longer shots can be accomplished but MOST hunters do not have that kind of equipment. When the average hunter sees this kind of banter on the boards and claiming killing animals from 1000 to 2400 yards this opens up to anything I can see, I can shoot. Both sides claiming if they can do it, I can too!! Who suffers, the animals!! If a LRH had to post $500 for each shot past 350 yards and forfit with a wounding or missed shot, I wonder how many would take the shots. The way it is now, the only thing the hunter has to louse is a spent round and the game a slow painful death with a miss of a few inches.
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<br>My personal ethics do not match the LRHs and with this post I refuse to fuel the fire and keep interest on this board.
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<br>Best to you from an old hunter that has helped increase our Big Game herds all over the country. The future is in the hands of the new hunters and the ethics they hold dear. -- no

Very well, thanks for the response.
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<br>Hope things remain well for you into the distant future and I wish you the best.
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<br>respectfully
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<br>Dave King
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<br>P. S. The phone call offer is still extended, I truly would enjoy the opportunity to chat with you or other hunters that have questions about responsible(?) LRH practices and principles.
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<br>One thing I do notice, is the aspect of mother nature vs personal ability. LRS like to over-shadow the beyound-one's-control aspect with touts of their ability. One's ability/equipment does not justify taking chances with what's beyound one's control. For this, I don't support shooting animals at extreme ranges.
<br>It does not make any difference how great a shot one is... it won't make up for what's beyound their control.
<br>Its a tragedy some don't respect the difference between ability and no control. ~~~Suluuq

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<br> Aspects of Mother Nature and no control over those events.
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<br> Recall that earlier I mentioned the two basic groups of LR Hunters, I will speak for me and for many of the folks shooting in my form of LRH. (I do not speak for the ULR Hunters because I believe Darryl has mentioned the aspect of spotter rounds for verification already.)
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<br> I believe there is another misconception that has not been addressed, that of the shooters ability to pass on a shot. I believe there is a major misinterpretation with regard to the actual pulling of the trigger.
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<br> We/I practice in the wind and weather, many of us shoot in competitions or practice ranges where there are significant and often difficult winds. When one is shooting in a competition (or perhaps a bet) the shooter is required to shoot a round or several rounds within a specified period of time regardless of the environmental conditions. Therefore practice in the wind is a good thing but a fickle wind will humble a shooter very quickly. Shooters become acutely aware of the wind and also their personal limitations on firing a high probability first round hit in varying degrees of wind.
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<br> As nearly anyone knowns and what I believe is being alluded to here by Rusty-Gunns previous post is wind and it's effects on the projectile. The wind is probably the single most difficult thing to master and can be the most significant confounder in accurate shooting. This is learned early on by nearly all shooters.
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<br> What I believe is being missed/omitted is that we (LRH) are not at the mercy of the wind in the same manner as a competition shooter. We can simply pass on the shot and pack our gear up or we can reposition closer if possible or we can also setup so the wind is favorable. It always nice to have a no-wind situation but that isn't always the case and there are some parts of the country that I believe never have no-wind days (the area of TX I just hunted in has trees with branches only on one side). Certainly a no-wind is better than a wind and a constant wind is better than a switching or gusting wind. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that wind's a problem when it's gusting to 20 and switching. Those days are good days for setting up for short shooting or staying in bed. My personal limit on wind when shooting at big game animals is in the 5 to 7 mph range (unless it's a no-value wind) and I don't like a full value wind no matter the amount. A no-value or half-value wind is always much easier than a full-value.
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<br> (I figure wind according to the direction it's crossing the line of fire. If the wind intersects the line of fire at a angle greater than 45 degrees and less than 135 degrees it's a full-value (2-4 o'clock or 8-10 o'clock), if it intersects at less than 45 degrees or more than 135 degrees but not from 0 (zero) or 180 degrees, it's a half-value wind, 0 (zero) and 180 degrees are no-value winds for the most part.)
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<br> I'm getting too involved here, sorry.
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<br> Suffice to say that wind is considered and I always have the option to not shoot or reposition for the next critter.
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<br> I will also mention that I nearly always nowadays consider wind values, even when shooting only 100 yards or so, it's a good habit to get into.
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<br>(Other environmentals are well understood by most shooters, temperature and elevation being major considerations.)
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<br> If these are not the effects of Mother Nature that were being put forth please correct me.
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<br> Thanks for your time and patience.
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Rusty-Gunn
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<br> After I finished my previous post I noticed you had posted into another thread regarding LRH and somewhat similar concerns. Being new(er) to this board I'll take a liberty of answering that particular post here and hope that I'm not violating protocol too badly, I don't want to get bound up in the other thread (I take "newbie immunity").
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<br> Here's your post:
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<br> An observation, worthy of a come-back by the LRS...
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<br>1 LRS have total control over a bullet in flight!
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<br>2 LRS have total contol over weather ie gusts, etc!
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<br>3 LRS have total control over animal behavior before and after a bullet is in flight!
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<br>4 LRS have total control over what an animal may decide to do when wounded, due to #2!
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<br>5 LRS do not have shooter-error!
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<br>6 LRS have abolute ability, and hence have no faults of their own!
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<br>You see where this is going? Its not about one's ability! Damn!
<br>Its the risk, or lack of respect for this risk, of taking a chance on shooting animals at extreme ranges, where one has no control of the possibilities of another outcome. Don't confuse your personal ability with the extra risk involved. ~~~Suluuq
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<br>First I'll repeat that I only shoot long(er) range when I feel the need, it's not the method I use for all or the majority of my hunting. It's a tool that I have at my disposal.
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<br>1. I don't have control over the bullet in flight, you're correct. But trajectories are repeatable and predictable to a large degree, this is what I am banking on.
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<br>2. I have no control over the weather. I do however notice the weather and when it exceeds by limits I reposition more favorably or hunt in a manner suited to the weather conditions.
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<br>3. I have some control over the behavior of the animal prior to the shot. I can easily make them flee in many cases and sometimes I can make them stop for a moment. What I do have at my disposal is experience with the animals I'm familiar with (local and species). I use this information to assess whether to take the shot or wait, and sometime to make the decision on which animal to shoot first (when culling). I use this same information whether I'm shooting long range or not.
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<br>4. I have not control over that aspect of the animals behavior. Some animals are fighters and some are not, some die easily and other cling to life. If the animal is frightened during the event and if they apparently have knowledge of danger they may flee. I can only hazard a guess as to what they'll do when wounded and fleeing. In my experience, if they sense no external danger they will not flee wildly or otherwise. It's as though they are awaiting additional input to make an educated decision (in many cases, as they are individuals). This is also the same for shorter distances and some folks certainly have observed this while stalking.
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<br>5. Yes, we have shooter error. Practice deminishes the likelihood but it's always a possibility. I'd say that external event are the main contributer, a rest may move or the leg of the bipod may creep or fall off a pebble. It is an everpresent possibility.
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<br>6. I do not have absolute ability, I have known ability.
<br>(One thing that I do know, somewhere out there is the best shooter on the planet and he's probably not shooting in any competitions. He's probably creeping around in a woods somewhere with a squirrel rifle shooting supper. I keep this in mind and whenever I hear someone say "He's the best shooter!" it's then that I wonder what that other fella is doing, the real best shooter.)
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<br>Now we come to the contested portion, the risk assessment. Yes, there is risk and some are more willing to take on a greater risk. But with any risk comes moral responsibility, the responsibility of the shooter to eliminate as many variables as possible until the risk is reduced to the point where it is acceptable to the shooter. This responsibility is the same for all responsible hunters, short and long range.
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<br>And, lastly, I'll admit that I have witnessed events that I find objectionable from both communities. And during the course of my life I have made mistakes and fortunately been lucky enough to learn from most of them.
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<br>I feel that a responsible hunter is a responsible hunter, distance, methods and age matters little. Hunt and shoot within limitations, venture outside the envelope as little and as infrequently as possible.
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<br>If you will carefully read over the many posts offered, I believe you may see that risk is involved and that precautions are taken. These precautions may not be initially as they appear, spotters and commanding views, large caliber rifles and/or heavy for caliber bullets. Hunting in areas known and frequented by the hunter seems to be a common theme too.
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<br>There may not be nearly as many animals shot at long range by professed LRH as non-LRH folks envision, far more I'd venture are shot at shorter ranges and every now and again when conditions are correct and there's not another option the shot is taken (I can't speak for the ULR Hunters here either, they hunt different terrain than I do).
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<br>Again, a long answer to a short question, but I felt compelled to reply.
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