|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,408
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,408 |
What would said 280/175 do that a 270/160 will not? 15 grains is fairly significant and the 175's are spitzers whereas as far I know the 160 .270's are semi-spitzers. Didn't say they wouldn't work, just that I believe the 7mm's do it better.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593 |
[quote=DakotaDeer]
15 grains is fairly significant ??? why??? and on what kind of target??? I'll not pick on you over it, as i used to think the same way... 15 gr is half of a .22 short bullet... shave 15 gr of lead and hold it in your hand... the .270 made it's reputation as a killer with 130s...
"Chances Will Be Taken"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978 |
For those so enamored,a 140 AB in 270 has a BC of .496;the bullet easily moved at over 3000 from the vastly inferior 270... The same weight and style in 7mm goes .485 BC and is started at the same velocities;generally I have gotten 3050 to 3080 from a 22" tube in the 280...in contrast to 3100 or more from 130's in the 270. All of Noslers figures for the 280 are from a 26"tube;those for the 270 from a 24"....personally I run 22" in both. BC's for the 150's in both are too close to call,as are velocities. So....if you see a large difference between the two,on the range,or in the field on animals,you might also believe in the Easter Bunny.  Having shot oodles of both,and hunted with them both as well,my suspicions are long since confirmed.The reasons that I read these highly amusing reports on the 280's "vast" superiority for home entertainment value, only.    Anyone really paying attention, will notice that the real "magic" in 7mm comes with bullets 160 gr and up...and for my tastes,the 280 with those weights, while useful,gets completely smoked by the 7mm's of true magnum capacity.  If I am going to make the leap over the huge chasm that is .007 inch,I am not going to house it in a case of stingy capacity,and run it through the roof in a 24" tube.....I'll take the magnum hull,start the heavies really fast in the same barrel. THAT is where the difference lies...this will be borne out in the field and the range.You will see it, if you look.  I agree with that assessment totally. Run a 7mm WSM, 7mm rem mag etc etc with 160+ high BC slugs at ,2,900 FPS + and yes you are literately adding a few hundred extra yards of range to a good .270 WCF. Of course, you are also amping up the recoil (and most likley barrel length) to get that performance. I remember 30 years ago when the .280 was the absolute DARLING of the custom rifle crowd. Everyone fixated on the supposed ballistic "sweet spot" BS.. The .280s only true advantage was the BULLETS. At the time ,7mm hunting slugs as a whole had BC numbers far above most 270s, which were mostly flat based bullets with lead spitzer tips. There were also no 140g .270 slugs at that time and most guys were using 130 grainers. Once Nosler started building BT slugs 25 years ago, the BC numbers of newly designed .270 slugs started to creep up to where they are just as good as any other hunting weight 7mm or 30 cal bullet. And since then in terms of popularity, the 280 has retreated back into the .270s shadow. For most folks the very slight performance gain of a .280 is simply not worth the logical hassles. As a matter of fact, the effect of the new .270 bullets has been so great, that 40 after the 7mm mag and .280s debut, when Winchester unvieled the WSM rounds in 2001, the .270 took off like a scalded cat because the 7mm was no longer vastly superior in hunting weight bullets. If it were not for the 1,000 yard shooters running the 7MM WSM with match slugs, it would have been dead 5 years ago. Which is a good thing, because the 7mm WSM is a fine round and deserves to be more popular. Frankly I think a rifle like a m70 Extreme Weather in 7mmWSM dropped in a McMillan Edge weight stock at about 6.75 lBs may be the ultimate worthwhile performance enhancement over a run of the mill .270 WCF.
Last edited by jim62; 10/22/11.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,089
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,089 |
A "few hundred extra yards" over the .270?
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,365
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 13,365 |
JIM 62 - "Unless of course,you actually LIKED not being able to find [.280 Rem.] ammo anywhere." I always take my .280 Remington ammo with me. I don't rely on Mom's & Pop's Hot Dogs & Storm Windows Company out in the middle of the boonies to supply me with ammo. L.W.
"Always go straight forward, and if you meet the devil, cut him in two and go between the pieces." (William Sturgis, clipper ship captain, 1830s.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978 |
A "few hundred extra yards" over the .270? In terms of energy at the target with the loads I was talking about-yes. According to every Ballistics program I have ever run the numbers on, when you compare the following loads- .270 WCF 150g Berger with a .531 BC at @ 2800 FPS MV 7mm WSM with a 168g berger with a .617 BC @ 2,900 FPS MV The 7mm WSM hits with the same energy at 600 yards as a .270 does at 400. And given the BC advantage of the heavier 7mm slugs, the further out one goes that only gets more pronounced. Not to mention less wind drift as well. I am sure both rounds could be loaded hotter but those velocities are achievable with both rounds with those bullets. I am also not saying the average hunter even needs that advantage out to most reasonable hunting distances, but it does not mean it's not there. And my real point was that such 7mm magnum loads sure as hell offer more of an advantage over a .270 than any .280 will provide.
Last edited by jim62; 10/22/11.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978 |
JIM 62 - "Unless of course,you actually LIKED not being able to find [.280 Rem.] ammo anywhere." I always take my .280 Remington ammo with me. I don't rely on Mom's & Pop's Hot Dogs & Storm Windows Company out in the middle of the boonies to supply me with ammo. L.W. Dude, Walmart doesn't even carry .280 ammo. And BTW, unless you are super human- even YOU forget things. Or the airlines lose them for you etc. If you are in a remote outfitter's camp or overseas- good luck finding any .280 ammo in a pinch.
Last edited by jim62; 10/22/11.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Hell, one might forget the rifle, so what good is ammo you can find everywhere....
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978 |
Hell, one might forget the rifle, so what good is ammo you can find everywhere.... In your case, I am sure that would be an advantage for you.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121
Campfire Oracle
|
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 96,121 |
Go run some more ballistic programs, let the men actually do the shooting.
"Dear Lord, save me from Your followers"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978 |
Go run some more ballistic programs, let the men actually do the shooting. Coming from a dink shooting smallbore hack like you, that's rich. 
Last edited by jim62; 10/22/11.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 18,453 |
7mm WSM with a 168g berger with a .617 BC @ 2,8900 FPS
Gotta be a long barrel to get that vel..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978 |
7mm WSM with a 168g berger with a .617 BC @ 2,8900 FPS
Gotta be a long barrel to get that vel.. You bet it would..LOL Thanks for pointing that error out. I just corrected it on the post. It should have read 2,900FPS.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593 |
it's the saturday afternoon soaps @ 24hourcampfire.com... guys pulling bullet specs and ballistic charts out like a gunslinger blazing into action... like we aint all read the same chart or loadbook page a hundred times...
i mean... come ON...
if everybody had to pull a real trigger 10 times to post, and shoot at live game twice for every opinion offered on a cartridges usefulness for hunting, it would sure calm down a bit as to wild opinions...
and i like hearing why joe likes the accubond over the ballistic tip, or the interlock over the partition... and i like reading about the rifle jack put together... might not be my choice, but it'll probly work for him, and i dearly hope he's on my side when push comes to shove...
"Chances Will Be Taken"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,089
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,089 |
Jim,
Thanks for the clarification, though it's about what I expected.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
I just got back from the range, where the 130 270 slugs dropped so far at 300-400 yards, I had to arrange a relay team 200 yards out,to get them on target  Fun thread! JohnW please excuse the ballistic gack....sometimes there is no choice! 
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593 |
sounds like you needed the Acme Bullet Booster...
"Chances Will Be Taken"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,408
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,408 |
[quote=DakotaDeer]
15 grains is fairly significant ??? why??? and on what kind of target??? I'll not pick on you over it, as i used to think the same way... 15 gr is half of a .22 short bullet... shave 15 gr of lead and hold it in your hand... At the muzzle the energy difference is 225 ft/lbs (2402 vs. 2627), at 300 yards (1457 vs. 1737). This is based on the BC of both bullets from the Nosler specs and using the handloads.com calculator. That is over a 15% increase in energy. Again, on an elk size target, that would seem to be significant. Especially considering the 7mm has the edge in sectional density. Again, not saying the .270 isn't good, just saying that for ME I would rather have a bigger bullet that should penetrate better on an elk. I want any extra advantage I can get if I have to take a quartering away shot on a large animal.
Last edited by PastorDan; 10/22/11.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 15,593 |
That is over a 15% increase in energy. Again, on an elk size target, that would seem to be significant.
all right then, thanks...
"Chances Will Be Taken"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,408
Campfire Regular
|
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,408 |
You left out the part where I said "...for ME I would rather have..."
The original post was "What's wrong with the .280?" I was simply saying why I liked it over a .270 for a certain application. Wasn't implying other people had to feel the same way or they were ignorant for feeling that way.
Yes, the .270 will kill anything as dead as anything else and will do so in a very effecient manner. As will pretty much anything else you choose to shoot animals with.
|
|
|
|
|
578 members (160user, 10gaugemag, 1badf350, 007FJ, 17CalFan, 1lessdog, 61 invisible),
2,491
guests, and
1,361
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,191,469
Posts18,471,408
Members73,934
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
