Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles One man's opinion - Why the M16/AR15 sucks

FYI and yes, I own one. Warning, some foul language.

web page

Interesting article - in my experience he's right and he's wrong. I carried a CAR-15 to work every night for a year, and cleaned it pretty much as described every freakin' night. It always fired and fired well. The M-2 carbine I carried for the year or so before that, which I could disassemble and clean blindfolded (no kidding), was so wimpy I thought the 5.56 was great. The Kalashnikov and Mini-14 theory of loose tolerances and simple construction makes for greater reliability but lesser accuracy. Ya pays your money and ya takes your choice. I would love to have an M-4, just for old times sake, but I'm about to buy another gun for "repelling boarders" and it will be a Ruger Mini-14.

On that mini--just don't pinch the forestock too tight. Our game wardens have jams with them often enough and find its due to a tight grip under stress that rubs and slows the op rod enough to continually jam.
Have never seen my AK jam. Its MOH at 100 yards.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff, that's a great tip. Now you've got me wondering if anybody makes a sturdier handguard for the Mini - I know there's about a million accessories available. Oh, darn I'll have to do some more gun shopping ....

What's MOH?

Phil

I'd be more concerned about hi cap mags. I don't know if Ruger is back in the business of making Mini 14 hi caps, but the only ones that work in mine are Rugers, of which I bought 5 when new in the 80's, or PMI. Every other aftermarket hi cap I tried was junk.

Mike, good point. From what I've read on some other boards Ruger is only selling 20s, and their older 30s are getting hard to find and expensive. Last Mini-14 I owned was maybe 15 years ago and I had only Ruger mags for it. Everybody I talked to back then was saying the same thing as you - couldn't find a decent reliable aftermarket mag at all. Seems weird to me, there ought to be a market for quality, people paying five or six hundred or more for a gun would demand decent functional magazines.

Phil

MOH = my own definition/term Minute of Human The AK isnt' much more accurate than to say it'll keep all rounds in an 18 inch circle at 200 yards offhand. And thats not saying much. Sks are more accurate.

Jeff

Phil, FWIW, another trick to getting better than MOH from the mini, is to buy a "clamp-on" bipod adapter from Harris or B-Square for like $30.00. I read this tip, tried it and shrunk my groups considerably. Also there is a new devise in the gun mags designed to do this, it's round & slips over the muzzle onto the barrel (can't remember what it's called & have no experience with it)
Good luck,
Mark

... The AR was designed back in the 1960s, when people smoked a lot of pot...
--------------------------------

THAT got me laughing out loud!

I always wondered what that little trap door in the butt stock was for! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

That guy had no valid points.

An AR is not that sensitive to dirt, and they are easy to clean. All you need is a can of brake cleaner with the straw and blast the carrier/bolt and the carbon comes right off. Maybe back when he was using them they did not have chrome lined carriers, but the ones of today don't take much work.

And, I have fired probably 500 rounds through one of mine since the last cleaning and it is still running smooth.

Also, the gas tube is protected and made of stainless steel. And his rant about the charging handle???? How the hell are you going to break that other than taking it out and stepping on it on uneven ground?

Not to mention the whole design is wide open so any water/dirt etc can fall out of the bottom.

Several thousand dead Jihadi's can't be wrong!!!!!!

The M-16/M4/AR absolutely SUCKS!

Mind the older, and more dead witnesses from the 60's. 70's, and 80's.
They are constantly bitching about the thing.

The M16 when combined with disciplined troops is what it is.

This guy is sniveling, and needs to display his "Time out" card.

Possibly he dosn't understand that the E-tool comes shortly after the rifle fails.

Given proper attention, the thing works.
And works better than anything else available these days.

If all else fails, God gave us us all incisors!!!!!!!!!

I grow weary of folks that continue to debate small details, when the largest issue is framiliarity, and skill.

The M-16/M4 is the same as a Brown Bess, just 200+ years late for the dance.

This guy likely molests livestock in the wee hours of the night, when his neighbors are asleep!

E4E

E4E, LOL!

Another thing he didn't mention is the fact that we are not allowed to use a 308 bullet that uses and expanding design like hunting bullets. So, full metal jacket 308 doesn't do that much more damage than a FMJ 223 anyway.

And if the push for smaller ammo didn't work, then why did Russia quickly follow in our foot steps and come up with their own version of the 223? Not to mention you can carry more ammo with the 223 vs 308.

Can use ballistic hollow points(IE sierra boattail match HPs) in both 308 and 223.

E4E and Dogcatcher223; with the respective replys did not mention actual combat experience with their beloved "Matty Matel" black rifles. I never needed to smoke the "wacky weed" the "peace-love-antiwar" generation was noted in doing, nor did I see any "Tookers" in the Vietnam theater. I did have first-hand knowledge of the effectiveness of the M-16A1 and M16 family of battlerifles. The rifle stocks were made for 100 pound wimps that carried another 100 pounds on their backs day in day out. They were too small and broke-cracked often. It was a "Pray and Spray" rifle as the sights were mediocre on a good day and pathetic on a bad as they were not repeatable! My M-14 had much better battle sights. As far as lethality, I was called to battalion headquarters, one morning, to provide medical assistance for an enemy North Vietnamese officer. A ROC(Republic of Korea)interrogater was beating the hell out of prisoner for information. They wanted him alive enough to give information. He was shot four times in the chest and abdomen. None of the four rounds had exited and this enemy was SPITTING at us! At 600 yards my M1A will do anything the AR15 will do! Regards

Fireball

Respect your opinions from actual use. Of course you may have had the same experience had you used the very first M14s. I've had my elevation drum come down a few times on my M14s. Have never seen it on an AR.

What I'm saying, is that since the days of nam, the AR family has changed a bit and is much more reliable. Add to that the family of projectiles have changed and spec ops have very few complaints of how they impact and reliability these days.

For the longest time I had my doubts, but two things converted me, my Ranger friend who survived Vietnam, and he liked it, secondly that terminal ballistic info linked to AR15.com on how the the old 55 milspec tumnbles/shatters at over 2800 fps after striking. (do I got those numbers right XM193?)

fwiw,
You sure as hell nailed that one...

Regards, Matt.

Fireball,

Was issued both. Long after the M-14 was Mothballed.

The current M16A2 is a completely different critter than it was back when you were betrayed by it's issue, in a form that was outside of the disigners concept and without the support and training our guys now have.

The M14 is a Goddess.
We agree on that.

In the current war, things are going from wide open to small closet.

The M-16/M4 is holding it's own.

The old M14 is also holding it's own as they are rapidly being reconfigured for the role of DM work by both the Army and the Corp's, and sadly thanks to Klinton there aren't enough M-14's around.

The Old Gal is what she is, and dearly loved.

The M4 is what it is, and works.

There is nothing out there as accurate and reliable in 5.56.

NATO and the UN need an enema!

Our guys need something new that falls between the 16 and the 14.

Dadgum politics are in the way.

Have run ballistic testing with both the M80 ball and theM193/M855.

I would call it a wash at short range.

Real rifles are no longer issued.
I reckon both of us have issues with that.

As a Vet I thank you for your time in hell.

Semper Fi!
E4E

E4E: You were there and you knew how it was! The M4 has it's place. In urban areas, it makes it's bones but only IF it puts 'em down. Hoorah AND Semper Fi!