Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Super Zepelin- Greg

Hey Greg,
I did get a few down range yesterday at 1000- still going in nose first, needs further testing. It is not a mono groove bullet (3 wide GG) I'll shoot Silhouette with Michael omorrow, but he is not fooling with this one. It's just one of those wild hairs that we wanted to play with. ....Dennis

We're expecting a sizeable mob, at tomorrow's Sierra Vista shoot........it's the last sanctioned event , for this calender year, and the turnout promises to call out a 3 relay day. Will be taking lots of photos, for posterior.
Jerry Cambern is brining down some heavy plate, on a bobtail rig.....I'm taking my Portable rig out, to swing, and deck the stuff......full day, what?

Ya'll have a real good time, say hi to all for us.

GTC

One of the nicest days I've seen for conditions at Rifle on Saturday for Silhouette- still had little wind changes that would throw you off, but beautiful Fall day. Rick Moritz set a range record with a 35 & 6 chickens! And my wife Judy in her second Silhouette outing laid down 10 pigs!
In further testing with the BIG bullet at 1000 Yds., 4 out of 5 rounds look to be making holes about an 1/8" out of round, so it looks like it is starting to get into a stability problem at that distance. Maybe a .45-90 or -100 might get the velocity up to 1250-1280 to keep it stable at that distance- accuracy was still pretty fair though at 2-1/2 Moa. I suspect that we will shorten up the mould down to 1.55" that should give around 600 grs. and give it another go. I'd like to get the velocity up to around 1260-70 fps., which will probably take getting it down to 1.45"-1.50" (570- 580 grs.).
Greg- Sounds like you guys also were in for some good shooting times there in Sierra Vista! .....Dennis

Pathfinder; What was the weight of the 'big bullet' (don't see it here) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Idahjo,
It weighed in at 633 grs. (Bhn 9.4 about 25:1). It shot a fine (near Moa) at 500 Yds. with only a 4 fps ES! ...Dennis

YOW-EEE <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> And the twist?

Regular 18 twist Pedersoli "Quigley"..

My deep-throated .45-90 with a 1x16 might just know what to do with a behemoth like that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Joe,
Yeah, with 90 grs. of Swiss behind it, you would know that you shot somehing! Hopefully in a 16-18# rifle!
If you are really interested, you can have Bernie cut you one. The reason we did this one so long is just to play with it- we expected that we would mill down the top of the mould a little at a time to get the optimum length, as it has about 1/4" base band as it is now. .....Dennis

I'm not sure I'd be all that hot to emphasize velocity, with that big lunker............and I'm sure that either an 18 or 16 twist will be adequate.......................

For those with terminal masochistic tendencies, I'll offer up that long freebore, 15lb Creedmoor of mine.........you oughta be able to get 110 gr, or more in there, behind this behemoth, ........................We WILL have an 18-20lb rifle , in that same chambering good to go, this winter....18 twist

My gut is telling me that this approach....big heavy lunkers, at MODERATE, to LOW velocities...................may really shine, .....................

Spinning 'em up is going to be the ticket ..............and that's going to call out a round bottomed groove, to defeat "stripping"....................................

Think I might know just the guy to discuss this with, and when he see's our posts, he'll have some good backround experience to bring to the table, on this subject. Wouldn't be surprised to see him pop up and comment.....HINT, HINT, HINT..............

GTC

Dennis; "Good Plan" (whittling it back until optimum stability is found) You otta' arrive at a perfect bullet for your rifle that way <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Greg;

+1 (let's hear it!) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

" (whittling it back until optimum stability is found) You otta' arrive at a perfect bullet for your rifle that way "

But, .....................what happens when he obsessively / compulsively cuts off to much?

The mold maker's gonna love him.

GTC

Greg,
Well it is kind of convienient to have your mould maker a couple of blocks away and somewhat disposed to experimenting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />! I do think that 633 gr. bullet may stabilize OK at 1000 in a 16 twist & probably just a bit more velocity than the 1200 fps that I was shooting it in an 18 twist might do it. The bullets that I recovered @ 1000 show no striping and they were pretty soft (BHN 9.4- about 25:1). I think that another 70 fps might be ideal at Long range & Bhn 10+.. can't do that with a .45-70 though (80 grs. was starting to bulge one case!).
This is the most accurate bullet that I have shot at 500 Yds. though, so you may be right about keeping it a little slower for a high BC- it looks like it would print a nice Moa group on the Ram & be much less effected by the wind. But, out of a 12# rifle in Silhouette, you wouldn't want to fire many! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
Joe, last I looked, I didn't see many elephants or 13' Kodiak bear around my cabin in Idaho <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" /> I think that this thing would be over kill for anything smaller! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ...Dennis

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />[you may quote me on this] "OVERKILL" is, 'merely a state of mind'... DEAD is DEAD <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

....................Joe, that 1x 16" long leade rig of yours ......

this may be a bullet to keep 'yer eye on......................

just kinda loafin', ........I think it might be a wind buckin' fool.

GTC

Greg; My thoughts exactly... just don't know if the 'ole bones are ready to have the 'crapola' kicked outta' them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Not really sure that would be the case..................

Watched a " hot "..........3fg load , running out of a little Ballard (.38-50 Rem-Hep), last Sat.............barking and biting.....and kicking way hard..................no way that caliber should do that.

I think that acceleration rates( given that we're using a steeply spiked" launch")....have a lot to do with felt recoil, and than.....there's the way we set 'em up, too. I'd listen hard to Wasserburger, and his 1fg theorum.........

I'm a bit curious, about " loafing" this one, and think it might be worth a go............believe me , if it aggregates a better Ram score, at this home range, I'll gladly suck up the additional recoil.

Anyone tried that " big Mamou".........that Buffarms used to flog?
GTC

Dennis or Greg; (Q) I am wondering about how a brass mold performs as compared to a Jones or Brooks? I have a Brooks that makes an excellent job of casting 570's, but have never had experience with a brass one... Any enlightenment <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Dennis; Any chance of getting a picture of your 630 Behemoth posted?

Evening guys,

In my limited experiance, the longer bullets give more trouble then worth the extra weight? Now this is my opinion so take it for what its worth. I think ( big effort for me!) that bullets much over 1.435 in lenght will show stablity issues at a touch over 900 yards when driven at velocitys below 1300 fps. Poor nose designs will show up at the 800 yard mark.

Now this is an opinion, I think that MV should be 1330 plus and bullet weights in the 500 to 530 area of course 45 caliber seem to do a damm good job at 1000 yards. We took Dan T's mono grove bullet shorten it to my original Ideal Postell Lenght of 1.425 and WOW it shot very good from the get go out of my 45-110. Some groups witnessed by the ole Rdnck last April at 600 and 800 yards in inital testing about made the two of us faint! Shot at my range on the family ranch.

With bore dawgs this load is running well into the 1380 fps range with Fg Goex loading of New Process powder Recoil is not nearly as bad as some EXPURTS Would have one to believe! I was once told that a X was an unknown quanity and a spurt was a drip under pressure?

Its been reported on several other forums of a new national records made this year in scope class with a hot rod 38 all are true the shooter did an excellent job and shot awesome scores. The poster failed to mention that this caliber while it set a new national record for a Day agg and the 2 day agg was beat at 1000 yards in scope class by a 45-110 both on Day 2 of the Creedmoor Nationals and for the agg of 1000 yards for the 2 days. Abet by only 1 point but still, a 45-110 using a 527gr bullet with Fg Goex beat it. The 38 guys proved its a competitive round, in my opinion non traditional but its NRA Legal. However the 45-110 shooters showed they were up to the demands too.

Hey Ken........Are you getting that 1350+ FPS with the 1FG?, These long throated .45-2.6's I've got will hold LOTS......
Got word from pathfinder, a while ago, he's cut that test mold back to 1.550, and i'm going to tell him that my calcs, worked out with a burnt stick, on a flat rock.........show that the optimum legnth was 1.56725! .................................His results later this week. Wish I had a mold maker right up the street / trail, from me.

.45 cal., .........................now, and FOREVER!

GTC

Thanks Ken, your thoughts are very interesting and most probably correct. Greg and I are (sort of-unofficially kicking-around) thoughts of fast twist, very heavy bullet and slow velocity... probably nothing that hasn't been visited before <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I haven't posted in awhile and not again for awhile. This heavy-light-short-long bullet is of interest to me. I'm an OK long range shooter and don't claim to be as knowledgeable as some others. I've always looked at the whole picture of shooting long range and what counts, not just one segment. It takes shooting all the yardages and corralating those results, not just one part, to tell whats really happening with a load or what not.

I'm not one to pat myself on my own back, it's just not part of my mental make up, except the following is the only way I can think of to expell some errors in thinking and just maybe some old wifes tales. Here goes, I shot the long range regional in Phoenix earlier this year, at that match I used a 565G. P.J. bullet that Paul had to make special mould block for. I was in first place after the first day and pulling away the next, at 800 I shoot a 99-5X missing that 100 by 1/4" high, 90 something at 900 when disaster struck at 1000. I got behind reading the wind and mirage at 1000 which caused 2 misses and a win. I used a plain jane 18 twist on a High Wall, so who says a long heavy bullet won't shoot. The morel here is, it's not the powder, bullet or that stuff, it's what you can make shoot accurately in your rifle. If a 1.4 long bullet is stable and hits center of the target, it's a good thing. If a 1.6 long bullet hits center of the target, another good thing. Same holds true with bullet weight and so on. How about powder brand and granulation, that's nothing but and only subjective.

I happen to use Swiss powder and velocity is 1320 to 1400 depending on what I feel the conditions will be at the given shoot I'm attending. Those velocitys are being had with 25 less grains then a 110 uses as just an example.

So take what I've posted for what it's worth, it's free.

Kelley O.

Joe,
I've got several of Bernie's brass molds & like the way they cast better than any other material- in 100 bullets I frequently get 100 keepers- no visual deffects & usually .75 gr. each way.
Brass is more expensive and seems to have a more even heat distribution. Old Harry Pope used a lot of brass moulds apparently.
The big bullet is now 1.63" & 606 grs.- just cast a few up in the slightly shorter mould. I'll get some loaded up & see what they do. Over on BPCR.net in my photo album, I believe there is a photo of the Lead Zeppelin 1.49" long- 585 grs.- this is just a longer version of it.
Kenny, you have put a lot of lead down range & have a better handle on BPCR shooting than most. Like I said above, we're just fooling around with it to get some first hand knowledge like you have done in the past- it's fun! I'm sure that there is an optimum bullet & load for each range & caliber. I know that a higher BC bullet will give less drift for a given wind & the longer the bullet for a given caliber, the higher the BC. Also, the BC goes up the slower it goes.
All of that doesn't mean s**t if it isn't accurate or ultimately the shooter can't dope the wind and break a perfect shot!
And, I'm not disparging the .45-110, but the guys that I know that are shooting it, have that last part down pretty good and could make ANY caliber look good!
Your length ideal is pretty close to the most accurate bullet that I have shot so far (the one I've used both years in the 5-200), it is 1.44" 545 gr. It is nearly identical to the LZ, but has a normal front driving band- I've put 5 into 1-3/8" at 200 a couple of times with it- usually better conditions than Raton though. The quest continues! ......Dennis

I just took some Jones Creedmoors............and drifted on the nose, with a 4 lb hammer, to cut the "base drag", and dread Gas cutting effect, of boat tail bullets....loaded them up with a stout charge of Wano, base foward..................

got an honest minute of BS group!!!

this is cool.....sorry, the chronograph took a direct hit , whether it was a wad, or a piece of shed base band, ..........can't say.

one thing I did notice, was that my barrel was about .003" looser ( I.A.B. Pedretti) when I finished my testing , than when I started.................................


Is this normal???

Write a card to Earl, guys.....

GTC


"he's cut that test mold back to 1.550, and i'm going to tell him that my calcs, worked out with a burnt stick, on a flat rock.........show that the optimum legnth was 1.56725! .........................

Dennis,

You bring up a good point, reading the wind and conditions plays a big and its a real big part to hitting that target.

Having steel targets at 1000 yard to shoot at for over 8 years and the nice impacts the bullets make on that white paint tell alot of neat stories. I even took pictures once that were in the SS exchange many years ago. Of bullets going to slow that impacted sideways on the target at that range. The same thing happend this year with a shooter making a new range record at 900 yards with a 44/50. However at 1000 he only hit the target 3 times all 3 hits where sideways on the steel as I went up after we fired to repaint an knew where his 3 hits had been one a bull at 2 oclock on the edge and 2 outs at 10 and 1 off the bull about 8 inches near the top fo the outer part. The past 9 years I have held over 12 matches at the ranch I paint the targets my self the majority of the time and have seen alot of bullet impacts of sideways hits from 40's to Jeff Smith's big 50 gov style bullet hitting sideways at 800 yards on my Creedmoor target. This is something that very few shooters ever get to see up close and its been very interesting and enlighting.

Another poster mentioned using big bullets and swiss he is right about powder choices up to the person. I however have shot swiss loads in 90's not this persons. But similar guns highwalls and a hepburn. To be blunt they KICKED THe [bleep] out of me. They kick much harder then my 45-110 loads do. I contend that its the recoil pulse of the faster burning powder and nothing else (stock design may be a key player too?) is the reason for this difference in felt recoil.

I think MV's be it what ever bullet weight your shooting need to be 1350 or better for the best scores to be shot with any caliber of bullet.

Ken wrote..........

"swiss loads in 90's not this persons. But similar guns highwalls and a hepburn. To be blunt they KICKED THe [bleep] out of me. They kick much harder then my 45-110 loads do. I contend that its the recoil pulse of the faster burning powder and nothing else (stock design may be a key player too?) is the reason for this difference in felt recoil"

That's sure in synch with my experience, .................the coarser powder is more fun to shoot, in the recoil dept.

As discussed, let's think about a test set up......getting pressures, in absolute vulue....that may be tough....pressure curves, and acceleration times should be do-able...

Heck, if I'm not mistaken, there's Fluke meters that will chart record Time / distance / pressure/ events................with stick on transducers.

Accelerometers should be the ticket for capturing recoil impetus data.

Man, it would be great to get into an old seismic outfits boneyard, and plunder some old vibrasize rigs......that'd work.

Worth thinkin' on.

These HOT 3fg loads ,that are currently all the rage, are beating the krap out of the rifles........bedding in particular, as well as the operators. I'm building a project rifle, on a CPA 44 1/2................it's normal " bedding mechanics" center on 2 wood screws................this is crazy, when your looking at humongous charges of fast powder, in big bore cals.

Yup, glued in pillars, tapped for machine screws, will be used instead.

GTC

Greg,
Good point- even if you get a hot load to be accurate, besides beating yourself up, rifles being machines, are cycle limited. The tougher the beating each cycle, the fewer the cycles <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />
I think that Kenny, Bill & Jimbo have pretty much worked that out in their 110's using a heavier rifle, a slightly lighter bullet & the courser 1F- slower burning powder. They are probably getting no more felt recoil than my 14 lb. .45-70, kicking out that 606 gr. bullet with 80 grs. of Swiss 1.5 behind it. After firing a few yesterday (windy & drizzely), I decided that the recoil was not too bad & I could probably fire a match with it.
The bullet is still close to Moa at 500 Yds. (vertical) and was 17" at 1000 (5) & the holes appeared round. I was actually glad that I had a 15mph x-wind, as that should have tended to destabilize the bullet if it was on the edge.
Kenny, if you, Jimbo or Bryan are up to it, there is a Silhouette match at Watkins Sat. with a Creedmoor at Byers on Sunday. Rix & I are going over- I think that I'll try & shoot that 606 LZ+ at 1000- see what it does in Real World conditions! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> ......Dennis

Dennis; keep us posted on what happens this weekend...shoot well <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(...would appear you are Colorado fellers... I had 5 years at Lowry AFB and 5 years with Aurora PD in '50's-60's)

This Cpa 44 1/2 project is going to be interesting....and I'm confident that I can get the rather narrow and spindly tangs buckeled into the P. G. stock.....with the pillars discussed....and get a sort of "ragged edge" rigid bed....I've seen them self destruct with the wood screw set up, in short order..... heavy calibers.

The " switch Barrel " description is a bit deceptive.....I think that any traditional single / falling block ( let's discard the Br. BPCR) is more or less a switch barrel rig.....properly managed.

Anyhoo, This CPA rig may be Ideal to run a 1x18 versus 1x16 twist.......... .450 /458"

I've been told that it's hard to tell the differance....but have never wrung it out myself.

I do shoot an original 1x22 3 groove trapdoor.........against all odds, it seems to love a 540 gr. Jones Creedmoor....which is , I hear a heavy bullet for that rate.

Cheers, GTC

I have this 'thing' for composite bedding. I get the matal-to-wood fit as close to zero as I can and while the wood is raw and will take a 'weld' I use tinted Brownell's Acra-glass gel to finish it. Always the joint is rock-solid and a true 'zero' fit is nice (interesting to see the mill marks and metal scratches duplicated...'teeth'). I know that 'purists' frown at this, but you can bet if they would have had epoxies in the 1800's the old-timers would have used it! My real preference for bedding on bench guns is MarineTex, but the grey or white color choice is limited to the non-wood stocks. Acra-glass disappears if done correctly...


I would really like to see the 16 and 18 evaluated side-by-side on the same test bed. My .45-70 barrel in a Hi-wall by Ron Long is a 1x17 and it will handle his 520 gr tapered spitzer at 1000 yards more accurately than I can hold <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

BTW: Keeep this one for yourself (remember 'the cobbler's kids have no shoes') <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Somewheres out there is an old lathe bed and carraige,the ultimate destiny of which is to become a machine rest.......

Eliminating shooter error is probably going to be the only way to really detail this out....................

For what it's worth, some years back Gullo told me that having fired both extensively, he did not see any particular edge, either way.

Me ?........................Dunno.

GTC

THAT sounds "SOLID"...

I would guess there IS a notable 'edge' at the extreme on either end of the bullet weight range (+/-) but maybe nothing gained or lost for practical purposes through the middle... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

"THAT sounds "SOLID"..."...............................Yup, now it's just a question of how to AIM the big bugger

Suggestions welcomed.....

GTC

Guys,
A brief report on the results of the big bullet in the Creedmoor match at Byers yesterday.
I shot the 800 & 900 with the 555 gr. LZ with 83 grs. of the New Process 2f behind it that gives about 1260 fps. Shots held vertical pretty well in the black with moderate 8-10 mph 7:00-9:00 wind. 800 was pretty much a horizontal group though the middle third with a couple of X's. At 900 it was pretty much the same, but couldn't quite get the wind right & alternated putting them into the left or right edge of the black for a not so hot score, but the load & bullet looked OK.
I used the 606 gr. LZ at 1000 with 77 gr. of Swiss 1.5 yielding about 1220 fps (Pedersoli Quigley Sharps, 34" bbl- 14#s). Shooting off a wrist rest & Recoil was only slightly more & tolerable. The wind had come around to behind us & was gusting. I had a couple shots go higher in a couple of the gusts- more than some of the other guys shooting .45-90's at 1300+. I did have one wind miss when it shifted from a quartering right to left.
My thought at this point is that the bullet shoots as well as my other best loads & works better in a side wind & worse vertically in tail or oncoming wind (probably due to the reduced vel.). <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> I'll probably go back to the 555 gr. at around 1300 for long range as the accuracy is about the same & less lead & recoil..... Dennis

Guys, I've had an epiphany! You're all way out of my league on this, I don't know Swedes from Danes.

Well, heckuva read, my mind is awash with thoughts and confusions I'll not burden you with at the moment. Well, 'cept for one. What your bullets are doing regarding stability isn't unique to your thundersticks. The phenom is noted on some 7.62 NATO bullet designs, that sideways thing that is. Somewhere better we can chat on that a bit. I am beside myself with humility. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />