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#6240008 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: walt501]
RJM Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 5085
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
Originally Posted By: walt501
Originally Posted By: MIVHNTR
Colt XSE Lightweight Commander in 45 ACP. I'll never sell mine.


Wow! A Ford guy AND a Colt guy! Isn't it great to reach life's pinnacle? grin

Generally, I agree with the 4.25 minimum barrel length for a 1911 with one exception - Colt. Their 3 inch Defender series has received nothing but rave reviews on the 1911 forums. I also believe that Colt is currently turning out the finest 1911's in the company's history.



...I have a Ford F250 with 303K on it and all my 1911s are Colts...do I qualify.... grin

The Defender series are great guns. A friend has two .45s from the original run in 1997 and just took delivery of a 2010 vintage 9mm. One of the two original .45s had to go back to the factory for FTF issues but once back never hiccuped again. The #2 .45 was fine from day one.

If one is looking for a reasonably priced CCO size gun (aluminum Officers frame and 4.25" Commander side) just saw a Kimber for only $900 in a gun shop in Ct. Great balance and great price for what you get....

I believe it was this one....Compact Stainless II...

http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/compact-ii-pro-carry-ii/compact-stainless-ii

Bob
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#6240013 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: tex_n_cal]
Condition Yellow Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 564
Loc: Great Basin
This one never had trouble out of any box grin
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#6240301 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: Condition Yellow]
supercrewd Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 5149
Loc: Gunnison, CO
A few others: EMP, Warthog, Defender
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#6240615 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: DocRocket]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12190
Loc: Georgia
in general it seems in line my limited observations, I would "bet" more on an out of box Colt working well than an out of box Kimber. Your right tolerances have a lot to do with it, but again were talking out of the box reliability.
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#6240625 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: DocRocket]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
Originally Posted By: DocRocket
Well, I have a hard time accepting that survey as being anything even CLOSE to valid. In the vernacular, it's about as useless as teats on a bull.

Self-report surveys are about the worst form of data gathering, statistically speaking, that you can get. People "misremember" according to their biases and prejudices (good and bad), for one thing; for another, the people who respond to self-report surveys tend to be cranky and dissatisfied compared to the general population.

But to address some specific problems with this particular survey:

1) There is NO definition of malfunction given, and no differentiation between TYPES of malfunctions. This point alone makes me want to puke all over the "study" and stop writing this post.

2) There is no provision for determining conditions. For example, was the gun field-stripped, cleaned, and lubricated properly prior to first firing? If so, how thoroughly? What type of lube was used?(I am AMAZED at the number of gun nuts who think WD40 is a good gun lube, as one observation.) At what temperature was the "testing" done? Was the gun cleaned sometime in between Round #1 and Round #300? If so, how? Was it relubed? Etc, etc, etc.

3) There is no provision for standardization of ammo. Cast bullet handloads using Bullseye or Unique are gonna gum up the works a lot quicker than WinClean.

4) There is no way to determine the experience or skill of the shooter. A tyro limp-wristing his first 1911 with hardball ammo has as much "say" in the survey as an expert armorer.

I could go on but I won't. I've already been accused by more than one 'Fire member of being a pompous, pontificating azzhole. But I make my living in a field that requires me to read a LOT of truly scientific, peer-reviewed material on a regular basis, and that requires me to sift through it critically; and even at this level, I have to throw out 80% of what I read in the journals as being useless crap, for reasons such as the brief summary I've written above.

So take my criticism of and absolute disdain for the 1911forums survey however you will. But if you use it to guide your choice in purchasing a firearm, you're going to get results that approximate the amount of thought you put into it when you read the "study", and don't come crying here when your choice turns out to be less than optimal.

Do yourself a favor. When you buy a new gun, ESPECIALLY an upper-end 1911, recognize that it's gonna have tight tolerances and it's gonna take you several hundred rounds to get the gun to work flawlessly. When you take it out of the box, strip it down and clean it thoroughly, then lube the crap out of it, fire a bunch of CLEAN ammo through it. Take it home, strip it down again, lube it again, and fire a bunch more CLEAN ammo through it. Keep doing that until you aren't experiencing any more malf's.

I wouldn't even DREAM of carrying a pistol for any kind of serious purpose, whether personal protection or competition, until I've put at least 200 bobble-free rounds through it. HINT: this means if it takes 800 rounds of ammo to get the frame-to-slide fit to settle in reliable, I'm not gonna carry it until I've put ANOTHER 200 trouble-free rounds through it.

End of rant...


Well written post right there.

I shoot nothing but Unique in my .45's and haven't found it a problem with proper cleaning. But yes it isn't a near clean powder.
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#6240751 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MIVHNTR]
tbear99 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 11/29/02
Posts: 8154
Loc: UPSTATE NY
Originally Posted By: MIVHNTR
Colt XSE Lightweight Commander in 45 ACP. I'll never sell mine.



+1 colt is puting out good quality now
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#6240845 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: DocRocket]
MontanaMan Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 10238
Originally Posted By: DocRocket


Do yourself a favor. When you buy a new gun, ESPECIALLY an upper-end 1911, recognize that it's gonna have tight tolerances and it's gonna take you several hundred rounds to get the gun to work flawlessly.


While I usually agree with most of your posts & comments, & I agree with your assessment of the accuracy of the 1911 Forum survey, I am going to rant and say that the above comments are almost entirely misguided & have generally (except for custom guns) come about as a way for commercial gun manufacturers to take themselves off the hook for new guns that perform at less than an optimum level.

I've built a lot of TIGHT match guns & have worked on countless other commercial guns & have bought several new guns from Colt, S&W, & Kimber for myself.

Tightness is rarely THE problem but is simply an excuse not to fix the issues that are really the culprit so the manufacturers can avoid service work, Kimber has this down to an art & has convinced the buying public of its validity.

Over the last 2-3 years I've bought 3 new new guns; in each case before the gun was ever fired, it was stripped, extractors were tuned, feed ramps, throats & chambers were polished to a mirror finish, slide stops checked to insure no interference with rounds so as to inadvertently lock back unexpectedly & the maximum diameter of a round (reloads) over the bullet near the case mouth, that will drop into the chamber is determined.

Barrel hood to slide fit is checked, bushing to barrel fit is checked.

Reliable magazines are selected; most OEM stuff is usually lacking. Not every magazine works equally well with every spring, extractor, gun combination.

Then when the time to shoot comes, as you so aptly said, the gun is kept well lubed.....slide/frame, barrel/bushing, barrel locking lugs/slide.

When all these steps (which sound like a lot) which are really quite simple, are taken, rarely will a new gun not be reliable, assuming good ammo.

The 3 recent guns have had exactly zero issues not attributable to either ammo or magazines & even those have been almost non-existent.

I have a 20 year old "parts" gun built with a Mark IV NM barrel that has NEVER, EVER had a single malfunction, & that slide was VERY TIGHTLY fitted to the frame.

So, most problems, IMO are not from tightness, per se, but usually other issues, but perhaps most 1911 users are not generally capable of either diagnosing nor fixing the real issues.

Rant over for me for now.

MM


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#6240937 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MontanaMan]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12190
Loc: Georgia
some say that 40 percent of guns made today are defective from the factory. I believe it based on my recent purchases.
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#6240970 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MontanaMan]
Take_a_knee Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 13855
Montana, how do you check the fit between the hood and the slide? Other than the obvious method of just pushing on it to see if it locks up tight.

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#6241082 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MontanaMan]
DocRocket Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 14214
Loc: Gone To Texas
Originally Posted By: MontanaMan
So, most problems, IMO are not from tightness, per se, but usually other issues, but perhaps most 1911 users are not generally capable of either diagnosing nor fixing the real issues.

Rant over for me for now.

MM



I like that part of your rant quite a lot, MM. As a non-gunsmith, I defer to your greater knowledge and expertise.

But I still won't carry a sidearm that hasn't given me 200 trouble-free rounds in one session.
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#6241105 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MontanaMan]
DocRocket Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 14214
Loc: Gone To Texas
Originally Posted By: MontanaMan
I have a 20 year old "parts" gun built with a Mark IV NM barrel that has NEVER, EVER had a single malfunction, & that slide was VERY TIGHTLY fitted to the frame.

MM



I've had two pretty "high end" 1911's that were VERY tight. One a Mark Morris gun, has never given me a lick of trouble since the first round I fired through it. The second, a custom from a very well-known small-volume builder I won't name, came to me from the guy who bought it from said builder. My friend told me the builder had told him it was "very tight", and that he should expect it to bauble a lot of rounds, but that he should put at least 500 rounds through it before sending it back to the builder for final fine-tuning. I read that as the builder requiring the customer to do a significant part of the final fitting for him. I put 500 rounds through it all right, but it was 2 rounds here and 3 rounds there with Type 1 and Type 2 malfunctions all over the place. That gun went back to the builder for final fitting, I paid my friend an agreed-upon price significantly less than he'd paid, and I carried it off and on for a couple years before selling it to someone who was infatuated with the famous builder's name.

I currently run a Springfield Operator and Kimber TLE II as my "working" 1911's. Both came to me fresh from the factory and although a bit "tight", they worked just fine after initial cleaning. I lubed them liberally through the first few hundred rounds, but now they'll run just as well dirty as they will spanking new clean.
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#6241277 - 03/01/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: DocRocket]
tex_n_cal Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 12/31/02
Posts: 17080
Loc: Back in Texas, for good!
Originally Posted By: DocRocket
Well, I have a hard time accepting that survey as being anything even CLOSE to valid. In the vernacular, it's about as useless as teats on a bull.

Self-report surveys are about the worst form of data gathering, statistically speaking, that you can get. People "misremember" according to their biases and prejudices (good and bad), for one thing; for another, the people who respond to self-report surveys tend to be cranky and dissatisfied compared to the general population.



grin I've had more than a little bit of statistical training, and measurement method/quality management training, and I definitely get what you're saying about lack of controls in definitions & reporting of problems. No question you or I can design tests that are far more objective and repeatable. I'm sure it wouldn't cost us more than a few million dollars to run that test, by the time we bought all the guns, ammo, & time for the people involved smile And yes, some guys are going to exaggerate failures, limp wrist, use crappy ammo, have buyer's remorse, etc. And some guys will cut the gun some slack and under-report failures, if it's their fave brand. I think the Ayche und Kaye owners are all like Porsche owners, and will never admit a problem with their guns grin

Two points though - given enough data, the excessively favorable and excessively pessimistic reports will wash out one another, and useful trends can be spotted. Second, having owned 20+ 1911's, and shot a number more, the averages mirror my experience. In particular, I have owned or shot 6 different Kimbers, including 4 custom shop guns, and 3 of them were not reliable.

Dumping an S&W 1911 (15.9% problems) in favor of a Wilson 1911 (12.5% problems) or Baer (13.2% problems) solely based on the survey would be unwise, given the small differences and the limited amount of data. But when hundreds of reports are in on Colt (17%), Springfield (30%), and Kimber (44%), I believe those trends are informative.

It's also interesting that the Glocks ("which always work") are indeed very good, but 10.4% report problems, which is close to Wilson & Baer's batting average...
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#6241450 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: tex_n_cal]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70625
Loc: Northern Florida
I agree with you tex, and I too studied experimental models and statistical analysis at both the undergraduate and Masters levels. While not strictly scientific, there's a lot of valuable data to be drawn from that simple survey, which would be foolish to just disregard. Additionally, like with you, it also pretty closely mirrors my experience, having owned dozens of 1911s over the years, to include two Kimbers, and one S&W. Additionally, a friend of mine owned two Kimbers, and his experience also mirrors the results. Neither of us any longer own any Kimbers, which should tell you something, and I have never had a failure of any sort from my S&W 1911 from day one, also consistent with the survey results.

Of the three Springfields I've owned, one was unreliable out of the box, and needed to be sent back, after which it was 100%, and the other two where 100% out of the box.

Of the two "modern era" Colts I've owned, one was marginally reliable, while the other was 100% reliable out of the box.
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#6241475 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: tex_n_cal]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/28/08
Posts: 7713
Loc: 99821/06810
I have only owned two kimber 1911's and have never had a problem. I know atleast 30 guys that all swear by their Kimber 1911's. I have met one guy that had anything bad to say about Kimber's 1911's. When I asked him how many he has owned and which ones his answer, I have never owned any just heard they have a lot of problems. Now add the people I don't know but see at the range all the time shooting their Kimber 1911's probably close to another 30 maybe more. I never hear them b-tching and whining about their guns. Then there is the causal conversations with like minded shooters and still I don't hear all these problems. Rather the opposite is what I hear and how impressed they are with them. Nothing scientific about my findings just real world opinions from guys that I know shoot their guns. By the way I don't own any Kimber's at this time. But I would not think twice if one were to find a good deal on one that I liked.
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#6241872 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: walt501]
MIVHNTR Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/11/04
Posts: 735
Loc: MI
Originally Posted By: walt501
Originally Posted By: MIVHNTR
Colt XSE Lightweight Commander in 45 ACP. I'll never sell mine.


Wow! A Ford guy AND a Colt guy! Isn't it great to reach life's pinnacle? grin

Generally, I agree with the 4.25 minimum barrel length for a 1911 with one exception - Colt. Their 3 inch Defender series has received nothing but rave reviews on the 1911 forums. I also believe that Colt is currently turning out the finest 1911's in the company's history.


walt501, it sure is nice up here. There's a lot of good company. grin

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#6241929 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: joshf303]
model70man Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/30/03
Posts: 3372
Loc: West Virginia
I still use my Star PD.
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#6242144 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: Take_a_knee]
MontanaMan Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 10238
Originally Posted By: Take_a_knee
Montana, how do you check the fit between the hood and the slide? Other than the obvious method of just pushing on it to see if it locks up tight.


On anything other than match grade gun, I like to see around .005-.008" clearance around all the rear of the tang & the non-port side & and a couple more on the port side & see that there is no battering on the barrel face from the slide.

(With a match grade gun you would have started with an oversize tang & would have fitted it a little closer especially on the rear surface)

I also make sure that the underside of the tang is chamfered & polished so as not to impede a round going into the chamber.

With today's better commercial guns, the tang fit is rarely bad enough to be an issue.

Another area that usually needs some attention & can impact the barrel/slide returning to battery, especially on a new gun,is the corners of the locking lugs in the slide & on the barrel.

Assuming that the basic mating of the lugs allow good lockup, I always chamfer the back edges of the lug recess on the slide & the front of the lugs on the barrel.......doing this will allow the barrel to both unlock & return to battery easier.

This is accomplished with a file on the barrel lugs then polishing, & with a scraper on the slide.

The absolute max chamfer is 25% of the lug surface & usually about 15% is plenty sufficient.

MM

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#6242172 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: DocRocket]
MontanaMan Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 10238
Originally Posted By: DocRocket


But I still won't carry a sidearm that hasn't given me 200 trouble-free rounds in one session.


I completely agree, & 200 would be a minimum.......but I would qualify that & say not necessarily 200 straight rounds in one sitting.

I allow for cleaning at, say each 50 rounds or so.

Most CCW's are not going to run into a 200 round firefight with their pistol, even if they had that much ammo on them at the time. grin

MM

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#6242226 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: DocRocket]
MontanaMan Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 10238
Originally Posted By: DocRocket
Originally Posted By: MontanaMan
I have a 20 year old "parts" gun built with a Mark IV NM barrel that has NEVER, EVER had a single malfunction, & that slide was VERY TIGHTLY fitted to the frame.

MM



I've had two pretty "high end" 1911's that were VERY tight. One a Mark Morris gun, has never given me a lick of trouble since the first round I fired through it. The second, a custom from a very well-known small-volume builder I won't name, came to me from the guy who bought it from said builder. My friend told me the builder had told him it was "very tight", and that he should expect it to bauble a lot of rounds, but that he should put at least 500 rounds through it before sending it back to the builder for final fine-tuning. I read that as the builder requiring the customer to do a significant part of the final fitting for him. I put 500 rounds through it all right, but it was 2 rounds here and 3 rounds there with Type 1 and Type 2 malfunctions all over the place. That gun went back to the builder for final fitting, I paid my friend an agreed-upon price significantly less than he'd paid, and I carried it off and on for a couple years before selling it to someone who was infatuated with the famous builder's name.

I currently run a Springfield Operator and Kimber TLE II as my "working" 1911's. Both came to me fresh from the factory and although a bit "tight", they worked just fine after initial cleaning. I lubed them liberally through the first few hundred rounds, but now they'll run just as well dirty as they will spanking new clean.


Honestly, Doc, I've never seen one that, absent a genuine dimensional or some similar defect, I couldn't make work.

Just a matter of ID'ing the root cause(s), as some have interactions, & then correcting it/them.

Always works best to do all that up front of course.

I just don't happen to believe that any 1911 should require 500 rounds to become reliable.

MM

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#6242399 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MontanaMan]
Take_a_knee Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 13855
Thanks MT man. Do you ever re-fit barrels buy adding a little weld and filing it down?

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#6242428 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: Take_a_knee]
MontanaMan Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/29/06
Posts: 10238
Yeah, Colt Mark IV NM barrels were made for Gold Cups & as such, had a narrower tang than a standard commercial or military slide, but the barrels were fairly cheap, readily available & they shoot really well.

In order to use them with standard commercial or military slides, the tang needs to be welded up & then fit to the slide.

A little work, but a cheap way to get a good shooting barrel so I've used quite a few of them.

MM

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#6242487 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MontanaMan]
JOG Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 11290
Loc: Minnesota
Great stuff, MM.

Probably the most common problem I see on 1911's nowadays is 'barrel bump', where the barrel legs impact the cross-pin causing FTF's. A several hundred round break-in will likely beat the parts into submission, but probably not without longer term consequences. On a new 1911, especially a blued one, barrel bump can be spotted after a few magazines.

My new pistol procedure is similar to yours with a few twists, but is shorter...due to my shorter talents. wink
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#6242676 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MontanaMan]
DocRocket Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 14214
Loc: Gone To Texas
Originally Posted By: MontanaMan
Originally Posted By: DocRocket


But I still won't carry a sidearm that hasn't given me 200 trouble-free rounds in one session.


I completely agree, & 200 would be a minimum.......but I would qualify that & say not necessarily 200 straight rounds in one sitting.

I allow for cleaning at, say each 50 rounds or so.


Well, yeah, you're gonna HAVE to clean it every 50 rounds if you're gonna use Unique as your powder of choice!!!
wink

Originally Posted By: MontanaMan

Most CCW's are not going to run into a 200 round firefight with their pistol, even if they had that much ammo on them at the time. grin

MM


Right. But there's a method to my madness, and I've taken it to some degree from experience.

A problem those of us who shoot a lot run into is having time to properly clean and lube our guns after a range session. Let's say you shoot your daily carry pistol in an IPSC match this weekend, but it's cold and gusty and gritty so that when you get home you break your usual routine and instead of cleaning your pistol you opt for a bowl of hot soup and a sandwich... then your honey suggests an afternoon nap, and before you know it it's time to get dressed to go out for that dinner engagement you've had planned for weeks...

... and before you know it you've holstered your tried and true faithful sidearm full of crud and dust and gunk from the match, and you have forgotten that because you religiously clean your guns after every match... except this one time.

Then a week later your worst nightmare comes to pass and you have to draw your sidearm to defend your life. Your sidearm, which has had 150 rounds of ammunition through it in a match and hasn't been cleaned and lubed. Will it fire and function as you need it to when the SHTF? You won't know unless you've proven it to yourself at some point.

I realize this hypothetical seems farfetched, but I know it's happened in at least one case. Fortunately, the firearm in question had met the 200 rounds test and although neither cleaned nor lubed, functioned flawlessly and ended the deadly force situation in a positive manner.

It also very nearly happened to me a few years ago.
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#6243091 - 03/02/12 Re: Which 1911???? [Re: DocRocket]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 12190
Loc: Georgia
thats why I never clean glocks, they work better dirty... whistle
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