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#6239772 - 03/01/12 09:23 AM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MontanaMan]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 10109
Loc: Georgia
given that about 40 percent of the Kimber's dont run out of the box based on that survey on the 1911 website, (and I have a Kimber that works) I would go Colt or the E version of the Smith and Wesson scandium.

be careful buying used 1911s



Edited by jimmyp (03/01/12 09:24 AM)

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#6239820 - 03/01/12 09:38 AM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: jimmyp]
gmoats Online   content
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/04/10
Posts: 886
Loc: Wyoming
Originally Posted By: jimmyp
given that about 40 percent of the Kimber's dont run out of the box based on that survey on the 1911 website...

....not doubting you jimmyp, but can you possibly give a link to that survey, I'd really like to have access to that info. Thanks.

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#6239888 - 03/01/12 09:55 AM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: gmoats]
tex_n_cal Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 12816
Loc: Back in Texas, for good!
Originally Posted By: gmoats
Originally Posted By: jimmyp
given that about 40 percent of the Kimber's dont run out of the box based on that survey on the 1911 website...

....not doubting you jimmyp, but can you possibly give a link to that survey, I'd really like to have access to that info. Thanks.


http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=252140

Read the first post to understand the survey, then scroll down to the second post for the summarized numbers.
_________________________
"...and a mild headache..."


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#6239981 - 03/01/12 10:19 AM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: tex_n_cal]
DocRocket Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/02/06
Posts: 12153
Loc: Gone To Texas
Well, I have a hard time accepting that survey as being anything even CLOSE to valid. In the vernacular, it's about as useless as teats on a bull.

Self-report surveys are about the worst form of data gathering, statistically speaking, that you can get. People "misremember" according to their biases and prejudices (good and bad), for one thing; for another, the people who respond to self-report surveys tend to be cranky and dissatisfied compared to the general population.

But to address some specific problems with this particular survey:

1) There is NO definition of malfunction given, and no differentiation between TYPES of malfunctions. This point alone makes me want to puke all over the "study" and stop writing this post.

2) There is no provision for determining conditions. For example, was the gun field-stripped, cleaned, and lubricated properly prior to first firing? If so, how thoroughly? What type of lube was used?(I am AMAZED at the number of gun nuts who think WD40 is a good gun lube, as one observation.) At what temperature was the "testing" done? Was the gun cleaned sometime in between Round #1 and Round #300? If so, how? Was it relubed? Etc, etc, etc.

3) There is no provision for standardization of ammo. Cast bullet handloads using Bullseye or Unique are gonna gum up the works a lot quicker than WinClean.

4) There is no way to determine the experience or skill of the shooter. A tyro limp-wristing his first 1911 with hardball ammo has as much "say" in the survey as an expert armorer.

I could go on but I won't. I've already been accused by more than one 'Fire member of being a pompous, pontificating azzhole. But I make my living in a field that requires me to read a LOT of truly scientific, peer-reviewed material on a regular basis, and that requires me to sift through it critically; and even at this level, I have to throw out 80% of what I read in the journals as being useless crap, for reasons such as the brief summary I've written above.

So take my criticism of and absolute disdain for the 1911forums survey however you will. But if you use it to guide your choice in purchasing a firearm, you're going to get results that approximate the amount of thought you put into it when you read the "study", and don't come crying here when your choice turns out to be less than optimal.

Do yourself a favor. When you buy a new gun, ESPECIALLY an upper-end 1911, recognize that it's gonna have tight tolerances and it's gonna take you several hundred rounds to get the gun to work flawlessly. When you take it out of the box, strip it down and clean it thoroughly, then lube the crap out of it, fire a bunch of CLEAN ammo through it. Take it home, strip it down again, lube it again, and fire a bunch more CLEAN ammo through it. Keep doing that until you aren't experiencing any more malf's.

I wouldn't even DREAM of carrying a pistol for any kind of serious purpose, whether personal protection or competition, until I've put at least 200 bobble-free rounds through it. HINT: this means if it takes 800 rounds of ammo to get the frame-to-slide fit to settle in reliable, I'm not gonna carry it until I've put ANOTHER 200 trouble-free rounds through it.

End of rant...


Edited by DocRocket (03/01/12 10:26 AM)
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#6240008 - 03/01/12 10:26 AM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: walt501]
RJM Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 4208
Loc: Rochester, N.H. USA
Originally Posted By: walt501
Originally Posted By: MIVHNTR
Colt XSE Lightweight Commander in 45 ACP. I'll never sell mine.


Wow! A Ford guy AND a Colt guy! Isn't it great to reach life's pinnacle? grin

Generally, I agree with the 4.25 minimum barrel length for a 1911 with one exception - Colt. Their 3 inch Defender series has received nothing but rave reviews on the 1911 forums. I also believe that Colt is currently turning out the finest 1911's in the company's history.



...I have a Ford F250 with 303K on it and all my 1911s are Colts...do I qualify.... grin

The Defender series are great guns. A friend has two .45s from the original run in 1997 and just took delivery of a 2010 vintage 9mm. One of the two original .45s had to go back to the factory for FTF issues but once back never hiccuped again. The #2 .45 was fine from day one.

If one is looking for a reasonably priced CCO size gun (aluminum Officers frame and 4.25" Commander side) just saw a Kimber for only $900 in a gun shop in Ct. Great balance and great price for what you get....

I believe it was this one....Compact Stainless II...

http://www.kimberamerica.com/1911/compact-ii-pro-carry-ii/compact-stainless-ii

Bob
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#6240013 - 03/01/12 10:27 AM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: tex_n_cal]
Condition Yellow Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 514
Loc: UTC -8
This one never had trouble out of any box grin
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#6240301 - 03/01/12 11:50 AM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: Condition Yellow]
supercrewd Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/12/05
Posts: 4699
Loc: Gunnison, CO
A few others: EMP, Warthog, Defender
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#6240615 - 03/01/12 01:07 PM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: DocRocket]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 10109
Loc: Georgia
in general it seems in line my limited observations, I would "bet" more on an out of box Colt working well than an out of box Kimber. Your right tolerances have a lot to do with it, but again were talking out of the box reliability.

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#6240625 - 03/01/12 01:09 PM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: DocRocket]
MontanaCreekHunter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 06/27/08
Posts: 6415
Loc: 99821/06810
Originally Posted By: DocRocket
Well, I have a hard time accepting that survey as being anything even CLOSE to valid. In the vernacular, it's about as useless as teats on a bull.

Self-report surveys are about the worst form of data gathering, statistically speaking, that you can get. People "misremember" according to their biases and prejudices (good and bad), for one thing; for another, the people who respond to self-report surveys tend to be cranky and dissatisfied compared to the general population.

But to address some specific problems with this particular survey:

1) There is NO definition of malfunction given, and no differentiation between TYPES of malfunctions. This point alone makes me want to puke all over the "study" and stop writing this post.

2) There is no provision for determining conditions. For example, was the gun field-stripped, cleaned, and lubricated properly prior to first firing? If so, how thoroughly? What type of lube was used?(I am AMAZED at the number of gun nuts who think WD40 is a good gun lube, as one observation.) At what temperature was the "testing" done? Was the gun cleaned sometime in between Round #1 and Round #300? If so, how? Was it relubed? Etc, etc, etc.

3) There is no provision for standardization of ammo. Cast bullet handloads using Bullseye or Unique are gonna gum up the works a lot quicker than WinClean.

4) There is no way to determine the experience or skill of the shooter. A tyro limp-wristing his first 1911 with hardball ammo has as much "say" in the survey as an expert armorer.

I could go on but I won't. I've already been accused by more than one 'Fire member of being a pompous, pontificating azzhole. But I make my living in a field that requires me to read a LOT of truly scientific, peer-reviewed material on a regular basis, and that requires me to sift through it critically; and even at this level, I have to throw out 80% of what I read in the journals as being useless crap, for reasons such as the brief summary I've written above.

So take my criticism of and absolute disdain for the 1911forums survey however you will. But if you use it to guide your choice in purchasing a firearm, you're going to get results that approximate the amount of thought you put into it when you read the "study", and don't come crying here when your choice turns out to be less than optimal.

Do yourself a favor. When you buy a new gun, ESPECIALLY an upper-end 1911, recognize that it's gonna have tight tolerances and it's gonna take you several hundred rounds to get the gun to work flawlessly. When you take it out of the box, strip it down and clean it thoroughly, then lube the crap out of it, fire a bunch of CLEAN ammo through it. Take it home, strip it down again, lube it again, and fire a bunch more CLEAN ammo through it. Keep doing that until you aren't experiencing any more malf's.

I wouldn't even DREAM of carrying a pistol for any kind of serious purpose, whether personal protection or competition, until I've put at least 200 bobble-free rounds through it. HINT: this means if it takes 800 rounds of ammo to get the frame-to-slide fit to settle in reliable, I'm not gonna carry it until I've put ANOTHER 200 trouble-free rounds through it.

End of rant...


Well written post right there.

I shoot nothing but Unique in my .45's and haven't found it a problem with proper cleaning. But yes it isn't a near clean powder.
_________________________
Eat Fish, Wear Grundens, Drink Alaskan.

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#6240751 - 03/01/12 01:41 PM Re: Which 1911???? [Re: MIVHNTR]
tbear99 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 11/29/02
Posts: 7809
Loc: UPSTATE NY
Originally Posted By: MIVHNTR
Colt XSE Lightweight Commander in 45 ACP. I'll never sell mine.



+1 colt is puting out good quality now
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I LOVE MY COUNTRY IT'S THE GOV'T I FEAR

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