Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR Chamber pressures in BPCR cartridges

From all the searching and programs, I have accessed nothing that makes any references to Black Powder chamber PRESSURES. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
Anyone have information on pressures generated in various BP loaded cartridges? Any computer or program available that works like the smokeless programs being cartridge and bullet weight specific?
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Joe,
The only data that I have found is for Hogdon's Pyrodex loads with pellets. Two pistol pellets (30 gr. ea.?) give a 405 gr. bullet 1231 fps @ 21,900 CUP. Since it is supposed to have similar chamber pressures to BP, I suppose that could be a starting point. .....Dennis

I read something years ago about the pressure of a Thompson Center Hawkens rifle and if I recall it was around 15,000. Of course that would depend on the type of powder used as all of the manufacturers have a different recipe for black powder.

Rusky; Thanks for the info.
[however] I believe there is little correlation 'tween Muzzle Stuffers and BPCR. Difference being a sealed chamber, and a HUGELY different "cork" in the 'business end'... ['less of course someone related to a 600 grain patched-ball]<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

May have similarities, but a bullet weighing up to +200 grains would probably mitigate the result significantly...
'would REALLY like to see (pressure curve) pressures for BPCR like in a smokeless program I have <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure why you are interested in pressure in a BPCR, but maybe it's the question and not the answer thats really important. It has been my experiance that all BPCR's ( and there has been some pressure testing done) have such a slow pressure curve with no real pressure spike that it is not really important. American firearms smokeless as well as our single shot BPCR's do not "Have" to be tested or "proofed" but the Italian rifles do. it seems that some of the testing on pressure done by Pedersoli and Beretti show pressure max out at aropund 28,000 CUP or so. That is with a "Proof" load which I think is double charged. Dennis's 25,000 Pyrodox load really surprises me, maybe this number is the result of the Pyrodox itself and not indicative of BP after all.

Gunny

From the Lyman #47 reloading handbook 45-70 loads
385gr cast 70 grs 2f 14400 cup
420 gr cast 70 grs 2f 16400 cup
500 gr cast 61 grs 2f 12300 cup.
All the bullets were cast from Lyman #2 alloy,and no mention of who's brand of 2f they used.

Gunny; My name should be 'Ever Curious'... I have had 1:40 lead mix in the back of my head for 577+ bullets in a .45-90 at 1250-1300fps(low and slow). Was contemplating "IF" the softer bullet would upset (correct word eludes me) in the bore better to create better accuracy. Realizing, of course, there is probably a fine line between 'too soft' and 'induced leading' of the barrel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Signed, "Ever Curious" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ranch; Thanks buddy, that is the best I have been pointed toward so far!

No problem, strange enough it was in the Ruger only section. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
I've got some more pressure data around here in some old book, but haven't been able to locate it yet.

idahjo,

While there is not a chance in hell of me spelling this correctly, the word is Obturate. You know i gotta tell idahjo this lead alloy thing can be real interesting. One of the best bullets I ever did shoot was one cast from "PURE" lead. These are damn hard to cast, thus our use of tin simple for the sole reason of making casting easier. The pure lead bullets I did manage to cast shot real good and there was NO Leading at all. Bullet can't be softer than pure lead. It also has been my experiance that the harder of an alloy used the more leading I have. Everytime I have had the need to reduce leading i have gone to a softer bullet not harder. Goes against common "Internet" wisdom but sometimes experiance tells the real story.

Gunny

Gadzooks, the secret is out!.............Gunny has spilled the beans............

Our experimenting with " super tin" ( that being silver) kinda petered out, in the face of other projects, and some wierd intermetallic phase, that would turn an experimental
(and expensive) batch of alloy, to cannon ball stock.

Barry Darr thought this whole super tin stunt was on track, and we batted the benifits around, at some legnth. The basic core goal was to reduce the amount of castability enhancing tin, to defeat the tendency of tin rich alloy to lead foul barrels.

As a lot less silver is required, than tin....to get really slick, well filled out bullets, I figured we were on to something.

Joe, have you ever tried to solder , with pure lead?.....it Is doable, but requires practice ( the old school body and fender men used beeswax, and oxy acetylene torches, with a reducing flame).

Old Ferguson has been really patient, and very helpfull.....He might just be one of the top soft metal alloys metalurgists around...................but he can go into some fairly complex terminologies, and Teriary, and quarternary phase equilibrium diagrams can be confusing.......to this old welder, anyway.

This is what I was getting at, when we spoke about the gray area that exists, in terms of coefficients of surface friction, and more properly, surface tension( at elevated temperatures), in bullet alloy.

Add tin to lead......solder, .........and that's about getting lead to stick to things...........easier.

The really small differances in "Hardness"....from a 20-1, out to 50-1, make the Brinnell scale somewhat ponderous, IMHO.good blending/alloying practice can give one a far better baseline. I haven't used a Veral Smith LBT tester, they're supposed to be very good, Jim Cornaggia's tester is a REALLY fine set up, and very repeatable, if you've got good prcisely blended standards, to cross check off of.............I don't think the Saeco is much use, as soft as what we run....It's just not very repeatable.

Less tin ditto's, Gunny, you've let the cat out of the bag.

GTC

Greg,
I test every batch of alloy that I cast with a Lee lead tester (mounts in one of the holes in my 4 hole turrent reloading press). It is very easy to use, after I flux the metal with a spoon, I put a spoonful of it aside to cool while I cast. I have found that youwill get a harder readout if you use a cold spoon. So after it cools, I scrape a small flat on the slug from the spoon & put it on top of the shell holder of the press & use the press handle to run it up against the spring loaded ball in the tester- it has a pin that protrudes to flush on the top that shows you have the correct pressure. After holding it 30 seconds, you take it out & use the supplied 20X pen microscope to look at & measure the indent. Look up the size on the chart & it gies the BHN- usually accurate within a couple tenths.
Those Lee testers haven't been available for 2-3 years, but I just noticed in my last Midway flyer, that they had them again- $32.99..
So how about your silver alloy formula- it is still probably worth trying at $7.50 an Oz. When it gets to $40-50, in the next couple of years, that may be another story (there is only about 1/4 the amount of silver in the world as there is gold and China & the Far East have really been sucking it up the last few months) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> .....Dennis

Well, an article on gold Fouling would certainly be interesting........................

That old Rowland, was from Colo., too.

GTC

...Interesting, thanks Gunny <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> (It finally stopped raining, temporarily, I may go the shop and mix some lead today!)
...Only as a little-guy watching Grandpa leading iron sewer pipe under the house with okum and lead <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Lead and GOLD ['otta make a brass-colored bullet <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />]... silver bullets reportedly are good for 'were-wolves'... what are gold bullets effective on <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> ( <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

Guys,

This whole alloy hardness thing is one subject that needs more work in my opinion. As I ponder this question it's not really the hardness of the alloy at all, it's the compostion of the alloy. Hardness is a by-product of this compostion, me thinks. Now I am not a "Crank" don't go into expermenting as it doesn't hold much interest for me personally. I want something that works, and once i stumble on that i am happy to leave things alone, and leave the expermenting to those who like that.

I have always seen that there are two camps in this BPCR game. There are the "Cranks" who don't really look at the shooting as the end product, but do look at the experment as the goal. Thats cool with me and those folks are needed real bad by guys like me as they find the new stuff. For me and the guys in the other camp the "Shooters" we are completely satisfied finding a load that will get the job done and then shooting the hell out of it. I shoot on average around 16,000 to 18,000 bullets a year. What with range and trigger time and shooting a match a week. I actually "Load To Shoot" where as the Cranks "Shoot To Load".

Getting back to alloy. The reason we use Tin at all is to make it easier ,or how's about possible, to cast these big old bullets we use. The tin provides the flow to fill out the mould and give us those match grade bullets we all love. The tin also makes life harder for us shooters, as it does like to coat things. So we find ourselves in the position of dealing with some leading or being able to cast at all. It always kills me when folks talk about no leading or how clean there loads are. Some amount of leading is going to happen. It very well may not be "Ironed" in leading but just those flakes that come right out with a tight patch and some Kroil Oil. But it is reaql hard not to shoot a lead tin cast bullet that weighs as much as a BPCR bullet and not get some lead, maybe small but there is some. But what do I know I'm not the crank I'm just a guy who shoots 3 or 4 times a week and sends a few thousand rounds down range.

If the "Pure" lead bullet was a little more feasable i believe that accuracy would be the real benefit. But a pure lead bullet is damn hard to cast. As I cast these my rejects are running right around 40% where as with 30-1 rejects are less than 2%.

There also is the real world problem of nose slump with a pure lead bullet. This can be a problem that absolutly ruins accuracy, it's a solveable problem however. If we stop and think what happens when we drop the hammer on a round that contains a soft cast bullet it a wonder we ever hit anything. Once that primer goes bang that 550 grn lead slug takes a real beating. It's setting there in the bore of the rifle minding it's own damn business and suddenly it goes from a dead stop to get the hell otta here and go smack something in a pretty big hurry. The base is pretty cool until it trys to out run the nose, the nose of the bullets gets pissed what with the base being so pushy and the softer it is the more it gets twisted. Now loading technque and nose profile can help here some, but it is going to take a lot of casting and shooting to figure this out. The shooting part is right up my alley, and I am having some succes with this. The casting problem is tough though. It's bad to cast a hundred bullets and only get to shoot 60 of them. Maybe thats the price to pay. If the results turn out to be worth that price i will pay it. Time and shooting will tell this tale.

Gunny

Great post,.............You've got me pegged...."Crank", and builder,.................just have to figure out WHY things work,as opposed to being just satisfied , that they DO.

One really pivotal, and indisputible verifier of your thesis would be lookin' at some of the Big slug gun bullets......

Cast in 2 parts, and than assembled and swaged....a very hard nose, to defeat slump, and a soft ,very soft driving section, behind it.........................best of both worlds, no?

Good obturation, and a robust nose structure. And those things run HEAVY powder charges......

work safe, GTC

Actually, I think Gunny got both of us 'pegged'. I like to shoot, but REALLY like 'figgerin Wha' Happen? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />
...speaking of that, I'm going to post a casting problem/question <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I think that's a matter of fit more than alloy. Harder alloys obturate less readily, thus more leading. Sorry if somebody already said that, I skimmed the previous posts, might have missed that.

Pure lead casting takes a LOT of heat, about 800*.

http://www.leverguns.com/

Try searching Paco Kelly's site for info on obturation and alloys. He's got a formula for pressure/BHN that will show you the light. A vauge recollection has it that Lyman #2 does it at about 14,000 PSI, but don't trust me on that. Pure lead is lower, obviously.

The slump thing kinda eludes me. Without arguing the point I've been boosting 300 grain pure lead out of a .44 Mag around 1550 fps over a full charge of Li'l Gun, I guess around 30 KPSI 1:20 twist. Shoots a lot better than John Kerry, MOA or a bit less if I'm on top of it that day. No slump I'm aware of. Paper patched they are, maybe that queers the whole deal? BTW, they most assuredly obturate. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Black and smokeless pressure curves aren't all that dissemilar from what I see, just that people tend to get higher pressures from smokeless because they want more pressure. Fella named Sherman Bell has a long running series of articles in Double Gun Journal on Nitro for Black conversion loads for use in damascus barrels, mostly scatterguns. Data is developed in PV barrels before he pops a cap in Old Betsey, and for the most part he duplicates pressure curves quite precisely with a number of smokeless powders, mostly single base varieties as I recall. In more than a few cases he actually achieves the same velocities with lower pressure using smokeless. You have to be a dogmatic heretic to do this stuff I suppose... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Then there is Seyfried, and his multitude of Nitro for Black formulas, some of which Bell uses. I could go on a bit I suppose, but you probably get my meaning.

Keep the sun at your back and the bead centered.

Good thread. As to the pressure thing, I've got Accurate Arms manual #1, and in it, they say they fired some maximum BP loads, read peak pressure, and then used that figure as their max for loading smokeless equivalent loads. I think the highest pressure was the .45 3 1/4" case with a 550 gr. bullet and some 140 gr. of BP, and this was rated (IIRC?) at or just under 30,000 psi peak pressure. Maybe it was 28,000? It surprised me how high this number went in that big ol' ctg., anyway. Naturally, smaller cases produced less pressure, but that was the top figure. This info is from memory, and the only thing I've got that's getting stronger is my CRS disease, so take with a grain of salt unless and until someone actually retrieves their manual to verify this. I'm just too comfortable right now.

Blackwater; that is about the most promising thing here so far. Maybe when you feel more chipper, you could check out the more common .40-55; .45-70; .45-90's with heavy bullets and share the information <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/help.gif" alt="" />

Thanks most kindly <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

DD said.........

.........." think that's a matter of fit more than alloy. Harder alloys obturate less readily, thus more leading."

Well , yeah, but this is where the wad comes into the equation, and the bullet lube as well.................In proper synch, the two should be providing a linear seal,.........lube stripping off the grease grooves, and flowing into the annular contact area of the wad to the bore / groove.

High tech plastic wads , popular in some circles, apparently go one step further, and provide a " semi viscous" seal.I think it was SPG who figured that this stuff was molten, in it's transit down the tube......I just can't get into plastic wads, missing a boat though I may be.

In that first series I did, on " Category A rifles".......and........ " That first instant in the launch cycle"...I think I touched down on my own philosophical baseline regarding leading.....that being that regardless of how great your alloy, powder , and lube...................if the wad isn't up to snuff , you'll get "Leading".

At that time, my extrapoltion was that wad failure, and resultant cumbustion gas bypass (Gas Cutting)......was blowing vaporized lead, and molten droplets off the surface of the driving band(s) ..............and that they decelerated more rapidly than the bullet was being accelerated.........As the bullet caught up it IRONED the lead into the Bore / groove, and now we were "fouled out"..........obviously,.......... the nose band(s) would be that area of the bullet most lacking in lubrication, so the overall scenario looked pretty bleak, at that point. Obviously, regardless of the problems looming in the future for this "leaded" barrel.......the damage to the bullet geometry on the shot in progress didn't look too promising, in terms of accuracy.

................This has got me thinking now (Rare and fleeting moment, no doubt)........the residue from 60-65 shots down my barrel, wiping between shots, Of 50/50 Murphie's and Isopropyl rubbing alky(99%, Safeway)..........this having been run through ,on "Arsenal patches" dripping wet,
as encountered on dropping out the Side Hammer Sharps breech guts.......and agglomerated in the cavity below..........................?

Very slick, and lubricious ....almost slimy And a royal PITA , during the shoot, it was hard to grab hold of anything, and not have my hand slide.............( nice though , after relay...go to spigot / standpipe and rinse / wash).............Next time I try this stunt, will have a towel , close by.

A.*
Could this be why the rifle is torquing a bit harder?...a more balanced seal equation?
B*
Is this soap, commonly given in lube formula concoction, providing a "Just enough" film of lube, in front of the next shot?...It's certainly grouping well.
C*
Is this 99% alky to stout a solvent, in terms of evaporation( I never read the bottle, and honestly thought it was 18%...the usual cheap stuff, 82% H20 ).............and would the dilute stuff work better?

........I swear, I'm just as , or more confused as I've ever been, and that's most of the time.

GTC

Aye, but I referred to nekkid bullets, not those with undies. I do put the card underwear under my PP though. No hard cast in my life. A friend with a mentioned Marlin CB gun in .45-70 does not use the wad however, his groups better than mine. Might be the Vernier Sight. Or his with cupped bases, something mine will not shoot. Therein may lay an undeciphered clue, suspecting pressure the culprit, mine more than his.

Don't think you missed a boat though, only sabot worth having takes an Abrams to tote it around. Plastic is as plastic does.

This Black Science is simpler and more confusing that Le Smoke, the latter a passing fad no doubt. Sulphurous residue is quite hard and abrasive I hear. The USN got about 100KPSI out of Black once, did that yield a curve or an event horizon?

I am skeptical both ways about leading. If I fold a poor patch or crimp incorrectly, I get leading, yet I'm quite certain that there is no gas blowby based on paper shred/pieces inspection. This would be a looooong smear down the bore. Paper is stout enough that subsequent shot(s) remove it. It has not the character of leading I've seen where bare lead gets torched, seeming to be a random distribution of some sort. Proper sizing of hard alloys has a positive effect though I don't diddle with the Peeestol anymore, having matured somewhat, even if not gracefully at times. Sometimes very soft alloys don't leave evidence for CSI. A .25-20 load I use, albeit with gas check, has trotted upwards of 1500 fps by my reckoning, 1:30 alloy, Lyman 70 grain FN, no smear, no runs, no errors. 5 under a silver dollar at 50. With my eyes.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I've been told by the Master Moulder of these pills they will do near 2000 fps w/o leaving trace, lubed with liquid allox thinned with angel sweat or some such. I shoot them to regulate to 120 year old sights, he has a newer gun, not a century old yet. Or so I understand.

A question just occurred. If low pressure obturates soft lead, it stands that but a few milliseconds on the way the pressure will of course drop below the 'O' threshold. Given lube failure(mebbe) and/or bore dimension variance(quite common) would not a wild conflagaration begin? Bullet smear, gas seal lost, blow by, an almost neverending spiral that leads to dominance of the DNC in American Politics? All the more reason to paper patch I think, to avoid bad leading after good obturation.

Dan <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

crossfireoops,

Well here we go, son. this time it looks like shooter vs crank. I must preface this post with this observation: The following are my "Observations" those observations come from my own considerable shooting time, they are mine and mine alone no theory or computer programs EXPERIANCE'S. However I do feel that any shooter willing to spend the time on the mat will come to the same "Basic" observations and thus conclusion. I simple have seen this happen too many times.

This wad thing is "Really" a subject that is going to debated forever. i am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I do know however what works at least for me and I am a firm believer that it will work and be the same for everyone.

I use 4 wads in each and every loaded shell. The first wad and this is the first one in the case, is an under powder wad or some call it an over primer wad. This wad is common newsprint and is .003 thick. This for me is one of the best wads I use. this wad lowered my ES by a consistant 10 fps. That is my regular Swiss load without this underpowder wad had an ES of 14fps with this wad my ES is 4 fps. Now does that make any difference what so ever on the target? My thoughts are it damn sure don't hurt! Then after dropping the powder i put on top of the powder another .003 newsprint wad that I color red with a marks a lot. The reason for the color I will explan later. Then I use a .060 LDPE plastic wad. Next is another wad cut from common wax paper found in most kitchens, thinking here is to keep all of those damn wads from taking a trip to the target. Now with the wads in my loads known I will say I could with a little time recover most of the wads after fireing. i have in fact recovered hundreds of them, they don't even go very far down range on average feet and not yds but all could be recovered within at least 30 feet or so. The LDPE wads are absolutly undamged and I defy most shooters to be able to tell a fired wad from an unfired one. I have a few of these I have fired dozens of times just to see if they change in anyway at all. I have cut notches in them, marked them with a lead pencil and in each and every case they are exactly the same fired as unfired. The paper wads are also very easy to find as they don't go as far as the plastic wads. You can even many times see them fluttering down range. I mark the one on top of the powder red so that I can find and identfy them. They are not burned or damaged 99 % of the time. the under powder wad is the only ones I have never found, so I assume they are burned up on igntion.

The only conclusion "I THINK" can be drawn from these "Observations" is the wads sure as hell are not getting molton. On the recovered wads I have never seen any evidence of gas cutting on these wads, but then again I very rarely have any leading at all.

Leading is damn sure being caused by something. i don't know what is causing it but I feel that the wad is not the culprit. So what is?

Gunny

Gunny said:............Well here we go, son. this time it looks like shooter vs crank.

I don't really feal much like I versus much of anybody, ....well, OK.....child molesters, meth people, some political stripes.....but in shooting sport....dialogue with knowledgeable folk......nah.

Can say i've never put a plastic wad down a barrel yet....but you've sure got me thinking....I know that some of the regional bunch are having success with'em.

The wad isn't causing leading.....................no, but wad failure will.

Wad failure = " gas cutting"............and the lead blown off the diameter of a projectile, or plastic sabot, WILL decelerate faster,against atmospheric pressure, than an accelerating projo.........this from Sandia labs, and the skunk works........and that's the "Ironed on" sorta leading.

In that ramble, and I was just rambling.............."I think it was SPG who figured that this stuff was molten, in it's transit down the tube".........................

I have no idea, as to whether the stuff is molten, lukewarm, or popsickle cold................

I run .060 veggie fiber, Walters.........Chip's " Arizona lizard Blood" lube ( A "Dago Red "variation / concoction)....and outside of scorcher days , in timed events, when blow tubing just don't keep up with dryin', ...............I don't have leading problems................period. Ok.......the ocassional "whisker", on a patch ...............and that's about these goofy square bottomed grooves in contemporary barrels ( someone PLEASE........... cut some Metford pattern BPCR barrels).

..............So, if we can at least agree that wad failure is ONE potential gremlin in leading of fine target rifle bores...this dialogue can, and should roll right on in to an exploration of other potential sources of this vile phenomenon.

PWOP ( paper wad over primer) ditto's............we've pretty much found the same, with E.S.'s

I guess it's time to look at alloy composition a bit.A coupla days ago, I was discussing your comments...........about softer slugs leading less..............with "Ceramic media Dave" Maurer.................He agreed wholeheartedly, and sagely nodded that experienced noggin of his...........We also both agreed that antimony wasn't too awful cool in BPCR, and Schuetzen..................With a strong proviso that some of the guys are doin' GREAT , with WW.........

These NASA slug designs, and the recent breakthrough into lubes like Dan T's "White lightning".........probably makin' this a more , and more viable alloy choice.........

"Leading is damn sure being caused by something. i don't know what is causing it but I feel that the wad is not the culprit. So what is? "

....................alloy composition, lube failure, phase of the moon, falure to change one's socks to those that allow one to shoot better................?....................Dunno either,

.........................but it's a damned interestin' subject, ain't it?

GTC

Gunny, from your posts above I construe that you use soft alloys, and your experience parallels my own. Now I don't think wads are immune to mutilation, but I do think that if backed up by full and unfailing obturation they are as leak proof as, well, more than Morton Thiokol's O-rings anyway. I have no basis for the presumption that given little or no obturation, or poorly sized(all in context of hard)er) cast alloys) that such undergarments will get torched, but presume I do. Such in my dogma. I do think there is a world of difference is how bullets get along with barrels, the comparison being between them what's nekkid and them that ain't. Heat has an effect on those au natural, and the powder grains too, I see the grain imprint on the bullet bases most of the time. When you mangle your bullet base the sun may rise in the West. Or elsewhere.

I once experimented with PP round balls, loaded one atop the other. They shot better than I had a right to expect, placing two groups about 8" apart on the target, center of impact centered on the X, groups measuring about 3" each. Looked like two different strings actually. Anyway, patching round balls is a chore, and I have no idea how Seyfried manages to do it so neatly for his bore rifles. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Well, I toyed with them for several months. No sign of blow by there either, at least until I started getting aggressive with the loads. You gotta appreciate a bronze brush when you trip the Chrony at near 2400 fps with one of those. Have no idea where the ball went, it missed a 24"X30" target board at 25 yards. Could be that the Chrony measured paper patch velocity 'cause I think all the lead was left in the barrel. Hooo boy, I ain't goin' there again, no sir.

I do like the idea of your underpowder wad. Never heard that one before, must try it out. Do you perforate the center or just let the primer burst do the trick? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I shall not debate the wad thing either. It works sometimes, sometimes it don't. Your mileage may vary.

.............." more than Morton Thiokol's O-rings anyway. "

Dan, ...........................that is cruel.

GTC

[Quote] "this time it looks like shooter vs crank" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Pssst... Don't tell Gunny but if he's claimin' to be "just a shooter" he has trespassed onto 'crank' territory (with scavenging for wads to re-shoot)<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

DD: I use a .38 cal wad cutter to make the OP wad with. That diameter nicely drops down into the center if the .45-parent cartridge cases (inner)head nicely.

Didn't mean it to be. Those O-Rings always leak some, mebbe we should invite them to the Campfire? In their world some blow by is accepted, man rated systems or not.

The mistake of STS-51L as I recall was not MT's, it was NASA's decision to commit to launch outside of established launch parameters. We can't be so accepting lest things go astray with each squeeze of the trigger.




I am speechless in awe of your innovation. Wouldn't have occurred to me in 12,000 years.

[DD-Quote;] "I am speechless in awe of your innovation. Wouldn't have occurred to me in 12,000 years"

'Small things for small minds' / 'outta the mouths of babes' and all that $--tt<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />
(actuallly if you try to fit a disc of paper cut with a .45 punch into a .45-70/90/100, etc. case the inner-shape causes a 'pinch' and you have to poke the damn thing down like a dish) It may/may not center; just trying to save you a step in the learning curve <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

DD; Speaking of learning curve, you would do well to ask Crossfire to educate you on the proper paper to use on the OP wad. THAT simple step could save you a lot of research also <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

looks that this is the "Leading" thread, huh guys? My match rifle a Meacham 45-70 Highwall has never reaqlly had a leading problem. There have been those times when I mined a little lead out of it, but the next day there was almost none. So I don't think I have had a comsistant leading problem. The lead in my barrel has always been easy to remove even on those bad days, with a tight fitting patch soaked in Kroil Oil. Just slivers reaLLy and some lead coming off of a lead bullet sqooting down a steele barrel at I'm outta here speed is to be expected to some degree I think. Lube is a big part of any leading problem I feel but there I once again have always gone with what works for me, SPG is as good of a lube as I need. I shoot mostly in very hot weather, summer time temps almost always over a 105 or so and humidity into the single degits some days. SPG has never let me down and I see no reason to change at this point. I pan lube almost all of my bullets and in the pan lubeing process the lube is "tempered" this is a must step for almost all lubes when you shoot in as hot of a weather conditions as I do. Even the few bullets I use a lube sizer on I temper this lube before it goes into the sizer.

The over powder wads I use are newsprint. I shoot them as punched by me with a hand punch and a hammer. i punch them with a 45 caliber punch and seat them into the bottom of the case with a dowel. Everytime I tried an under size over primer wad the cocked and where a pain in the ass.

The nose slump thing is a real serious problem with the 550 grn or so bullets we shoot. Even a bore rider has a unsupported portion of the nose hanging out there. Probably the best nose profil to shot is a bullet built around the Govt round nose. Trouble is they don't shoot worth a damn. but this bullet with its long nose at bore size and then a sudden round nose, almost all of this bullet is supported, these cast from "PURE" lead should not nose slump. But what the hell difference does it make if they don't slump and still won't hit anything? Lead alloy still needs some work, I am not happy with the 30-1 i shoot most of the time. I am in the process of changing that now and to tell the truth 80-1 shows real promise. It is still castable kinda, no leading at all not even the slivers, and in my Meacham it is very accurate. Now with that said the few bullets I am recovering all have deformed noses. I don't know if this is slump at ignition or that sudden stop when the hit the sand I shoot into. One of those is cool the sand part is after the dance and all of the drinks and that cigarette that says I am fulfilled. The "at ignition" part is before the music starts and you have no idea what is happening next. Shooting will decide what is really going on, a lot of shooting.

Gunny

Must you always pull some new 'trick' from your hat?
WTH; is "tempered lube" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

And this goes to support the 'differerent strokes...' thing:

I NEVER have a problem with the .38 wad centering in the .45 case as long as I peek down the mouth and maybe tap an occasional one to center it. I found the .45 wad and the dowel to produce more off-center sets. "Whatever works" I guess... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

HO,

Tempering of lube is a way to make the lube more heat resistant. Steve Garbe wrote an artical about this 4 or 5 years ago in his mag. i simple remember what i read son.

One of the problems with shooting a soft pliable lube like that required for BPCR is the lube all of them to some extent have the tendency to be so solft that in real temps the lube melts right off of the bullet and contaminates the powder, and also makes this round lube free. Not a good thing. Steve wrote that for hot weather shooting SPG needed to be tempered, kinda like chacolate needs to be tempered. This done in a double boiler fixes the suspension of the ingredants in the lube and makes the lube "VERY" heat resistant. Since I pan lube the actually process of melting the lube for the pan tempers the lube. I noticed long ago that a lot of folks using SPG where having problems with there lube melting in hot weather. I was not having these problems and after checking around some, I found that those who where having problems all used a lube sizer. I tried severeal experaments both with tempered as well untempered lube. I would suggest tryinhg thisd experament for yourself, you will be amazed at the results with fouling control.

Also "HO" your comments about the .38 caliber wads. I have indeed tried this and I just found it to be a pain. The 45 caliber wads once seated with the dowel have never given me a problem at all. I probably have shot close to 60,000 or 70,000 of the things that way. Damn I need to get a life!! Too much time casting and shooting. I'm taking up fishing next.

Gunny

Well I'll be doggoned! Learnin somethin new all the time <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I always use a lube sizer as I am all thumbs with pan-lubing (more of that 'ole "shoe fits...." , thingie <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)
I almost tossed out the SPG 'cause it was so damn messy [but it worked so good] so, instead, I mixed an old personal concoction dubbed 'purple haze' 50/50 and got all the attributes of SPG without the mess <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

PS: If you start a 'fishin, I sure hope you are bettern' me at it <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Well, ..............................We use a .40cal punch, and a dowell profiled to fit the inside radius of the case used..

And only with a super secret paper........for OUR PWOPS....

Send a $50.00 money order, and a SASE..........we'll reveal our secret

BWAHHAAhhahhaaa.. ..............must be the heat, in AZ.

GTC

Charmin I'll betcha. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Always good to keep a supply handy. This is an evolving thread, and interesting. Never dreamed I could turn 5W-30 into 20W-50 with just a stove. Hope the wife doesn't mind the smell.

Imagine what will come with the next topic! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

DigitalDan,

Don't knowquite how to take that last post. Are you doubting that this works? Or are you just trying to be cleaver? Now I don't know nothing about turning 5W into 20W, but I do know how to control fouling in extreme conditions. This kind of knowledge comes from remebering what I read and then putting some of that into use. The things that work you keep the ones that don't you don't. Come on guys tempering lube is BPCR 101 for begineers. No dark deep secret here.

Gunny

My remark was in regards to Crossfire's secret recipe for UPW. A joke. You use newsprint, I was speculating in regards to his "secret". OK? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

X-fier DOES have a 'secret' (bet on it)... but looks like it's 'a gonna cost someone $50.00 and a SAS envelope to get it tho <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Gunny,

For the problematic wad seating over the primer hole (trapped air), try inserting them BEFORE priming the case.

Guys,
I had the opportunity to watch Michael Rix put some last minute loads together at his loading bench & while loading those newspaper wads, he said that he believed that he ALWAYS got better groups out of those made out of the funny paper section! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Gunny, I have always Pan Lubed, because I don't even have a lube sizer- guess I have been tempering and not knowing it!
I've used SPG, DGL, Black Magic, White Lightening, Michael's Eagle Lube & some of my own BW-Crisco-olive oil+lube guard and they all seem to work fine. But, just out of curiosity Gunny, what is your preferance after sending many a thousand rds. down range? ...Dennis <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Gunny,
Sorry, reading back I see that you said that you use SPG & don't look back <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />!!! I did put some Soy wax, avacodo oil & lamb tallow together recently- very clear & slippery. Lubed some bullets, but have not tried it yet- will be back in DC for a few days & will try it out when I get back. ...Hello, my name is Dennis and yes I am a LUBEAHOLIC!