Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Savage Collectors Savage 99 Lever Droop-its effect on Headspace & Primer Protrusion

I want to show those who are interested, how wear affects bolt engagement, headspace, lever droop and primer protrusion.

A perfectly happy Savage 99 action:



Note the lever lug lifts the bolt into full engagement with the recoil shoulder. The brace is in full contact with heel and toe of pillar in a rifle with NO wear.
Now I want to insert a diagram to clarify my terminology, so we are on the same page.



Here is the method I use to determine wear:
Remove the buttstock from the rifle. With hammer released,place a screwdriver under the rear of the bolt, then rotate clockwise. This will show whether the bolt is in full engagement. Any movement of the bolt at the rear shows wear in one of three places. The lever lug which moves in the bolt channel, the bolt channel itself, or the brace. This problem can only be corrected PROPERLY by adding metal.



The next step will show the dramatic change in primer protrusion taking place when different thicknesses of feeler gauges are inserted between the brace and pillar.You need a static point to measure bolt engagement. The static point I use is the bottom of the receiver to the point shown on the bolt.



The measurment on this particular rifle in full engagement is 2.330" and when fired, primer protrusion is .008". To determine how much metal is needed on the bottom of the lever brace, I used this method.


Place feeler gauge between lever brace and pillar(with all internals removed except sear,bolt and lever). I fired the rifle with the following results: NOTE OF CAUTION- I did this as an experiment--a competent gunsmith would take the measurements and make the needed repairs before test firing!!

receiver mea. primer protrusion
without feeler gauge 2.330" .008"
with .006 gauge 2.330" .005"
with .007 gauge 2.330" .001"

Note the dramatic difference .001" makes in regard to primer protrusion and headspace. From these results, I know the only welding that needs to be done is on the bottom of the lever brace.

Following is a photo of a lever and how to obtain a reference point before welding, so that after welding you can keep the bottom of the brace in proper alignment and keep complete engagement with the face of the pillar.

[img]http://i1207.photobucket.com/albums/bb469/cowboygunsmith/leverbite004.jpg[/img]

The lever shown in this gun is pre 90,000-- the rifle is 160,xxx. This lever shows no wear. The only wear that exists is approximately .004" in the bolt channel. With these measurments I ascertained I will need to add a little over .007" to the bottom of the brace.

Many times on this forum I've heard some say "Oh well, a few thousandths isn't that big a deal" Well, YES IT IS!! Refer back to the feeler gauge and primer protrusion .001" of an inch meant .004" in primer protrusion. How you achieve these precise measurements with a hammer blow is beyond me. For those who care, in the thread "I'm always amazed..." I posted that your firearm should be taken to a COMPETENT gunsmith. Possibly, my efforts might help someone with an old Savage gain a better understanding of this action and what to expect from their gunsmith.


For curiosities sake: if you guys who have multiple Savage 99's would measure your receivers as shown, and PM me--I would love to know measurements of rifles that show no primer protrusion.(rimmed only for right now)

Thanks!

John

Thanks for all the hard work to post this information. It's very detailed. I appreciate it. Roy

i'll have to save this thread and do a little checking
norm

Interesting analysis. I get the impression you are equating primer protusion to head space. Where/How is case stretch being accounted for?

I usually see primer protrusion when the load is light and the case does not stretch fully back to meet the bolt face.

All this said, it behooves the reloader to resize brass in such a way to set the shoulder back only enough to allow slick feeding and closing of the action.

Your approach to fixing a lever seems to be more of a precise action then whacking one with a hammer.

Thanks for the post.
Wayne

Thank You for that thorough explanation! I 2nd RoundOak's review

Rimmed cartridges of .303 Sav and similar, 30-30,30-40Krag,32Spcl are supposed to have a rim thickness of .063" ,but never do.I have brass that run's from .055-.060".So if you have a properly headspaced rifle and shoot a .055" rim with a case that doesn't come back against the bolt,you have .008" primer protrusion.250-3000 brass for some reason is alway's undersized compared to it's SAAMI spec's.But with today's rimmed ammo the first shot no matter how slight will show some primer protrusion.Nothing to lose sleep over.At my age I worry more of other thing's drooping.

Okay, took a while to look this over and if I understand correctly, you are saying:

Wear on the lever lug, in the lug channel on the bolt, or on the edge of the lever can keep the bolt from being pushed fully upwards as it's cycled, and if it's not fully upwards then it may not be fully seated forwards into the chamber. Thus, leaving increased headspace.

I'll accept that explanation, very well written out and I thank you for the time you put into doing it.

But..

Equating primer protrusion to headspace is totally off. I can get rid of primer protrusion in any of my rifles just by loading hot rounds. Just need to get that case pushed back harder. Protruding primers are often a sign of light loads rather than headspace. And lack of protruding primers in no way means that you don't have headspace issues.

Second, nobody has measured how much difference will be introduced by closing the arc slightly on a lever to remove lever droop. It may be anything from 0" to far too much.

That being said, a primer protruding .008" might be an issue because SAAMI specs for 30-30/303 Savage would be a max of .007" on headspace. But it's also very possible that it's exactly like sqweeler says, just thin rims on the cartridges. As a test, I just measured a dozen different cartridges of different mfr's and lots in 303 Savage, and the rim widths range from 0.056" to 0.061" (matching up with sqweeler's notes almost exactly), but none match the 0.063" specs. Thus the cartridges THEMSELVES are introducing additional headspace from 0.002" to 0.007".


I will say that if somebody does need to fix the lever to remove lever droop, it probably would be a very good idea to also have a gunsmith check for headspace issues. The droop itself means there has been wear, and closing the arc on the lever probably isn't going to help it. Probably run $5 to $10 to get the check, and can be done with 30-30 gauges.


But best of all, you've shown a pretty easy way to address minor headspace issues when found by building up ome of the areas on the lever or the bolt brace. THAT is great information.

Thanks for the post, very well written!

Well I purchased a set of gauges for project I am working on. Every single 1899 303 or 30-30 I can get mt hands will close on the no go gauge and most of these rifles are tight and lock up properly.
I figured there may be a little difference in rim thickness which is something that will ne to be accounted for and can easily turn a rifle from being tight with one brand to having excess head space with another. The case failure with the one I am working on definitely got my attention as a southpaw the gases went right back to my face. Somewhere I have some savage manufactured 303 ammo I will have to measure the rim.

Here were some of my first thoughts on this, and I just wanted to show that there were others ways to correct a problem rather than beating on your lever with a hammer!

I know that everyone of you who has used this "method" and thinks your rifle is fixed, has increased your headspace!!!

I like Calhoun stated above, believe that if your lever is drooping as I have said many times, take it to a QUALIFIED gunsmith.

Thanks for taking the time to post this thread. I always enjoy learning.

Is it possible you guys are talking about two different things? Lever lock up is affected by the flat surface on the lever and the corresponding surface in the belly of the receiver. I don't this this contact effects headspace. Whereas the surface the surface of the ball of the lever and the bolt (where they meet) directly effects how high the bolt is lifted or put into battery which could/will effect headspace as well as the trigger of the rifle. So I believe both of you are right but the topics/thought processes are wrong. To correctly put the 99 into proper headspace as well as function is a very time consuming project. Maybe the factory took some shortcuts that worked fine for the 30-30 or 303 class of calibers but not so good for the winchester 308 class calibers?