Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Custom Rifles & Wildcats salt bath nitriding/melonite?

anybody use it? thoughts? comparison to other coatings like cerakote or black-T?
specifically on bolts/actions...

thanks!

I have done a couple of rifles and we do quite a few at the gunshot I work at. It is one of the toughest finishes I have ever seen. One of the rifle we did was a blued winchester 70 action with stainless fluted barrel. The guy who had it done is a guide and intentionally didn't care for it for a month of hunting brown bears in southeast alaska. Even with salt spray and continually being wet there was no rust on the nitrided metal. The scope ring screws were orange and fuzzy

It is an excellent finish for rifles with dual metal, stainless/chrome moly because it comes out a standard black for either. Its fairly spendy, running 350-400 dollars but it is worth it for an all weather rifle.

BAT actions recommended it to me when I recently ordered one of their actions for a hunting rifle build - they stated its as tough as nails & it'll really slick up the action.

I have heard that some actions can be annealed with this process, and that it is better for barrels, any truth to this?

sounds like a great process!

I ordered an AR-15 barrel with this treatment last week. They treat the entire barrel inside and out. It's supposed to have all the benefits of chrome lining without the draw backs. One thing to keep in mind is it's not a coating but a metal treatment. It's sort of like a case hardening in that it's "in" the metal and not on top.

Terry

I think I'll pass on Melonite untill I learn a little more..

Some good info here pay close attention to Joel Kendrick and Jerry Stillers responses

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2154768

There is a company in Arkansa that does barrels for $60.00 each and cheaper if more than one barrel.

Lassie,
That is Mimi Trutec. They have done several barrels for me. It greatly extends the barrel life. It is really cost effective on a competition barrel. Maybe not so much on a hunting barrel as most aren't shot very much. I have not been able to tell one iota of difference in accuracy, good or bad.

I think you're where I got the idea. BAT is not too far from me and they'll throw my PTG bolt in with one of their shipments to SBN. The price is right and the CM bolt needs some finish.

Are you guys worried at all that you may loose some of the heat treat?

Think I'll call PTG and see what they say.

Had many barrels and bolt done through MMI never a bad one, SHOOT THEM FIRST!!! Adam

Sorry, All of Stillers Pred actions have Melonited bolts, I have had kelblys melonited and it's top notch, modern actions heat treatment aren't in danger of annealing. ADam

Interesting... Stiller bolts are PTG as far as I've read.

Called PTG they Dave said go for it if BAT does SBN it must be ok. But he just runs his naked oiling them every so often.
But I'm lazy.

[quote]Originally Posted By: NotAGuruJust checked with 2 different metallurgists. They told me that it wont affect the core metal if it doesnt get hotter then the temper in the first place. 4140 is tempered at 1200 deg and 416 at 950. The SS would be done at a much lower temp for the nitrate[quote/]

[quote=stiller]This is basically true. If the temper temp is not exceeded, then it will not be affected. Most 4140 at 1200 deg F will have a rockwell in the lower 30's, too soft for an action and will tend to gall and have lug set back. Aim more for Rc 38 at about 1000 deg F. As for 416, it should never be tempered in a region between 750 and about 1050. It goes through a transition zone where the crystalline structure is brittle and crack propogation goes out of sight. Either stop at 700 or go past 1050. At 700 the toughness is the same as 1050 and Rc is about 42. At 1050 Rc goes to low 30's and will have the same issues as the 4140. Also, standard 416 without the R designation will have much more sulfur and can caused crack issues in the steel. Most 416R is a VAR processed material. Never use plain old cold or hot roll material as the properties are poor.

Most black iron nitrite (melonite) goes on at 1000 to 1200 deg F. We have our bolts done at 950. The place that does it is the only one we could find that would go that low.

My recomendation for anyone out there wanting to do any of these high temp processes better truly understand the heat treat conditions and the metallurgy that accompanies the processes. If not, a dangerous condition could easily show its ugly face[quote/]
_________________________
Jerry Stiller, President Stillers Precision Firearms, LLC www.viperactions.com

I'm not trying to bad mouth the Melonite process because I actually really like the Idea, but here is another bit of info I found on another site, Mr Stiller has answered quite a few questions about the process

[quote=stiller]READ THIS NOW!! Just because BAT has allowed their actions to be melonited, that does not mean any action can be. The process goes on at 950 degrees minimum. THAT WILL EFFECT THE TEMPER on most materials used for gun actions. It is close on 4140 for RC38, it is too hot for 416 if tempered at 700, it may work fine for 17-4PH if tempered at over 950. THIS IS POTENTIALLY VERY DANGEROUS. Check with the action mfr before meloniting structural parts. Our 4140 bolts are done, but are reduced to the minimum temp they allow for the process and it is just at our tempering temperature. If MMI told you it is ok for action structural parts, they are talking out of place without manufacturer approval[quote/]


Edited by stiller (March 28, 2010 19:50)
_________________________
Jerry Stiller, President Stillers Precision Firearms, LLC www.viperactions.com

I believe Bat receivers are 17-4.

Yes I believe they are, and the reason they can safely be treated, and since 99% of all bolts are 4140 cm and the heat treat is at a higher temp makes bolt coating safe, it just seems this process is running on the ragged edge of being a great addition to barrels and actions but on the other hand so close to disaster if the original heat treat is exceeded, sounds like there are very few companys treating at 950* compared to 1076* most treaters use!

This is NOT true. There are several 'modern' actions that cannot be treated with this process and these companies know which ones they are. I don't believe you can process a 416 stainless action nor the cast stainless actions. I believe WBY mark Vs are on the list of actions that cannot be treated.

I had one entire rifle done and three barrels at once. The barrel that had 70 or so rounds through it would not shoot as good as it did before being treated. I replaced the barrel. I have no idea what happened but I got fliers and bullets that would blow up in the air after Melonite. The other two barrels, each had one round through them and they shoot fine.

I am impressed with the action and bolt however. Mine is a Defiance CM action. It gets very close to the threshold of heat treating temps in the process.

I would never do a used barrel again.

I've seen several barrels ruined with the process. I've seen some that we're unaffected. Nitride has different results with different materials, especially stainless where corrosion resistance is decreased because of nitride. Today, in fact, I held stainless parts inmy hands that were rusted after being treated with nitride.

I like the process and want it to become successful, but there is a whole lot of misunderstanding and risk in it for firearms applications at this point, even with the most reputable vendors for this.