Home Forums Hunting & Shooting BPCR 1st BPCR, Maker and Caliber?

I'm interested in getting into BPCR, from a shooting and hunting standpoint. I'm thinking Pedersoli and a 45-70 to start? I'd love a Shiloh Sharps in 50-90 because I love big bores, but trying to be realistic. Thoughts?

45-70
Go with a Shiloh to start with and leave the Italian junk for those with funny hats.

LOL...yes, they do look like the real deal.

Of the Italian clones, Pedersoli is the best, IMHO.

Their barrels are very good and they'll give the more expensive American made Sharps a run for the roses.

Here is my .45-70 Pedersoli Sharps with Lee Shaver sights.

Below is my .45-70 Browning BPCR, made by Miroku in Japan, using American Walnut and a Badger barrel (USA). This one is set up for Louisiana Primitive weapons deer season with a VX-3 3.5-10x40 CDS, shooting 250 gr. Barnes TSX at 2,550 fps with the CDS set up for that load. It will print around 4" at 300 yds. Not too primitive...

DF













[img]http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f35/rush2830/BrowningBPCR.jpg[/img]

It starts with how much do you have to spend?

Without knowing that, we are all spinning wheels.

Probably best bang for the buck is the Browning 1885 BPCR in .45-70. But what do you want to spend?

I'd like a model 74; the classic "Sharps" in my view. Yes, I know price is the determining factor; $1,250 or so for a Pedersoli and $2,000-$3,000 for a Sharps. I'm not adverse to spending the money, as I have safari rifles that were well over $10K. I guess maybe I'll start with a Sharps, and if I lose interest after some time, they seem to hold their value well for resale.

If you get the Pedersoli, you won't be sorry. They are very accurate.

then Sharps it should be. Buy a used Shiloh and sell it for what you paid if you don't like it.

Well then that is exactly what you should do. A basic Shiloh #3 at 1800 or the roughrider and #1 priced at 1902. From there you can add stuff, but be sure and do your price checking carefully. The Italians are not that much cheaper when you get all said and done, and anybody that try's to seriously compare the quality between the Italians and the Big Timber guns is full of crap when they say the Italians are as good.
C Sharps basic 74's cost about the same as the Shiloh. Both will sell used for what they cost originally, try that one with an Italian repro.

Get a Shiloh 45-70 and don't look back. Get a 30 inch barrel and a shotgun buttplate and you'll be set. It is a fact that nobody ever sells a Shiloh so that they can buy a Pedersoli. On the other hand...

Biebs my friend, when Sharpsguy, Ranch 13 or BrentD* say "jump" regarding BPCR, my response is "how high." Sharpsguy has probably sent a half million rounds downrange with these rifles. I was given a beautiful Sharps #3 Sporter in 45-110 by Evil Twin as a retirement gift (what a guy huh?!) and SG graciously invited me to his home in Texas where among other things, he as a 500 yard range outside his backdoor. I spent three days there going to "school" and within a few rounds he had me hitting the 500 yard sheep Silhouette with Barrel Sights! He also taught me the intricacies of art of BP loading. I could not have done it without him. There just aren't any more knowledgeable guys out there than these three. Good luck but I warn you, once you come to the "dark side" all other shooting becomes secondary! jorge

*Even though he's a liberal puke...

Yes, I hear you on the Shiloh Sharps. I know from my years with centerfire rifles; you start with a Remington, move up to a Kimber, then on to an HS Precision, and finally wind up with a Jarrett. Might as well cut out the "procession" this time around. :-)

Hey Biebs, shrapnel has a nice 50-90 Sharps '74 in the classifieds, I like it.

Gunner

Ding, ding, ding . . . we have a winner. Biebs, save your sheckels and start at the top, you will not be sorry. AND for when the time comes . . . WELCOME ABOARD ! ! !

Yes. As someone mentioned here one time, one never hears of someone selling the Sharps to buy a Pedersoli. The other way around, quite common. I held out for a Shiloh and it was damned well worth it. Fit and finish equals the finest of the European makes.

You can buy a Pedersoli for 1/3 to 1/2 what a Shiloh cost (I just did)and you don't have to wait 15+ months to get it. Like I said buy a Pedersoli you won't be sorry.

You should get hold of Pedersoli, and apply for Dick Trenk's old job.

You've got that same Used Car Salesman style.

GTC

CRAP, sorry Biebs, found another post that says rifle is SPF, i'll keep a look out though.

Gunner

Thanks...I've got a few coming out of the safes now. Decisions, decisions! :-)

I was gonna try and work a three way with ya, in case you didnt like the 50-90 i was gonna see about trading you my 45-120, and i'd take the 50.

Gunner

i stop at Shiloh whenever i go through Big Timber trying to convince the wife to let me get one.....i want a 50 but i want to hunt with it more than punch paper......the 45's excel over the 50's for long range paper punching told by those who know, including those listed by Jorge.....

fit and finish on Shiloh's guns rival any custom gun ive had my hands on.....the Italian's seem to be functional guns but the fit and finish is no where close to Shiloh....plus as you say they hold their value very well should you decide you dont like it....

Well, Shiloh Sharps it is. Now for caliber.

I have a 45-110 and recoil is nothing compared to my 450NE Biebs. Sharpsguy recommends the 45/70 and that speaks volumes. I'd split the difference and go with a 45/90. Easier to load than the 110, and just as deadly.

Were I choosing my first or only BPCR:

If I just planned to hunt, or shoot to a max of silhouette range, i.e. 547 yards, I'd go with a .45-70.

If I planned to shoot to longer distances, I'd go with the .45-90.

Can't go wrong with either, as Jorge noted.

Paul

10-4, thanks. There is one solution....buy 2 of them! :-)

If you're going to go away from your 50-90 dream, I would suggest maybe take a look at the 44-77 if you're into doing things just a bit different.

Forgot to put in my post above that, HEPBURNS RULE!!

Glad to hear you decided on the Shiloh.

Well, yeah, if you fancy a toilet flush lever on the side of your receiver.

Seriously, my interest in Hepburns was piqued a bit when I learned that they are fairly easy to set up for lefties.

Paul

Know a guy who will make ya lefty.

Ranch13, yes, I talked to a guy who has several Shiloh Sharps rifles, and he was HOT on a 44/77 as his nest "Must Have" Sharps. A bit of history and nostalgia with that one.

Paul CSA has a left handed flushhandled roller on the available list right now, not sure of the chambering tho....

Biebs I wanted a 44-77 for 40 years, finally decided to get it done, and now feel really bad for waiting all those years....

Just remembered Biebs, got a bud that has a C Sharps Highwall in 40-65, with a heck of a nice sight set that comes with it.

What do you knowledgeable hands think of this cartridge for hunting and targets?

It has a few match stickers on the buttstock, and it can be bought right

Gunner

Gunner there nothing wrong with a 40-65, but in the long range stuff, 600+ yds, it can have some troubles if the wind get's up.

Another of our esteemed members here, is Evil Twin who incidentally gave me my 110 Sharps. He has an original that is cool beyond words. He recently got a 44-90 and loves it. Hopefully he'll chime in.

My son has a .40-65 that he uses for silhouettes. Works well. It's basically a necked down .45-70. I had the same rifle, but had mine rechambered to .40-82, which is the .45-90 necked down. To be clear, mine is the .40-82 Silhouette, which I believe is the version that Shiloh offers as a chambering. It is not the same as the old .40-82 Winchester.

Both can work well at longer ranges, but it can be a bit tricky. Takes just the right bullet, etc. Custom barrels in such chamberings sometimes have faster twists, to help stability at longer ranges.

My .40-82 drives a 417 gr. bullet at about 1330 fps. That is fast for a BPCR, but not to an extreme. Nevertheless, those in the vicinity note (complain?) that it has a really sharp report.

Paul

Me too...

Many Thanks Gents, I would think a 40 cal bullet of some 400+ grains would fly good and still hit with game anchoring authority, does anybody know if you can Paper Patch for 40 caliber cartridges?

And bottom line, is this rifle worth 2 bills out the door, IIRC bud said the tang and globe sights with all the different inserts are worth 700 dollars alone.

Gunner

Maybe, but I'd want to know the exact brand of the sights. $700 sounds like a high estimate, especially for used sights. A top brand quality tang sight of the Soule variety sells new for around $500-550. A globe front sight maybe $150, unless it is windage adjustable, then a bit more. Again, that's new, top of the line. Check out Montana Vintage Arms catalog online for current prices.

I believe that Shiloh supplies MVA sights as original equipment, and they are top of the line, the benchmark. I don't know who makes sights for C. Sharps, or if the sights on that rifle came with it new. I believe that C. Sharps has used different brands over the years, but I can't vouch for it.

As for the rifle itself, I'd check the C. Sharps catalog for current retail, and go from there.

Paul

Thanks Paul, this was someones match rifle, and i'm no expert on sights by far, but they are very, very nice. IIRC the front sight has a bubble level in it

Gunner

Gunner, no offense, but you really can't tell just how good a sight is just by eyeballing it. You really have to know how it's made, and that means the "innards", which is where the reputation of the maker comes in. Just like BPCRs themselves, there are some really nice looking examples that aren't so great inside.

A globe front sight with spirit level is pretty standard too, and not really indicative of quality or value.

Paul

10-4, next time i'm at the shop i'll get a brand name on the sights.

Thanks,
Gunner

No first hand knowledge, but I believe that at one time C. Sharps supplied Parts Unknown sights, now branded Red River. Those sights were/are made in Ukraine, and imported through Canada. They seem to be decent, but not in a class with MVA or other top US brands.

Another place to peruse various sights is the Buffalo Arms catalog. Beware though, it is a huge wish book for BPCR related goodies, and shopping can get costly.

Paul

hey Paul, just called my Bud and he said the rifle had Kelly KOS? sights both front and rear and an MVA someting or another for a spare.

Gunner

Wow, those are good ones. Don't know what KOS stands for, but BACO carries Kelly and they are good, and costly. Pretty flossy too, with color casing, brass fittings, and all, if that floats your boat.

BACO = Buffalo Arms Co.

Paul

10-roger Paul, I knew they looked alot different than the Shiloh mid-range sight on my rifle, Yes, these were purty

Gunner

I can't advise you as to the exact worth and value of that package, but I will say that if I were in your shoes I'd be taking a close look at it. It is an excellent combo all the way around. I admit that I'm partial to the high wall, and if I were to build one it'd be on a C. Sharps action.

If you were to show up at a BPCR match with that outfit, the old hands wouldn't look at you and roll their eyes with that "Ya damned fool!" look. It's a very respectable rig.

Paul

HAHA Thanks, they will in fact roll there eyes at me when i show up with that blasted 45-120

Gunner

I honestly wasn't aware or had forgotten that you had a .45-120. You can just take your chances on that one!

Seriously, the .40-65 would be a lot more practical and fun for just about any form of shooting,

Paul

Yes on the 120, got my PP supplies in today, I'm gonna try and roll some this weekend.

Gunner

Good luck. I've had decent success as a beginner with paper patching.

Hope it works out for you.

Paul

Thanks Paul

Gunner

Think carefully what you want your BPCR to do. I came across a spotless (mint) used Shiloh in .40-65 and traded a Winchester Traditional Hunter Hi-Wall that I absolutely hated (curved steel butt plate) and a little cash for it. Mine is a heavy half, 30", SG butt, with no upgrades. It is a sweet rifle, and it compares in fit and finish with anyone's custom rifle. I am not into either LR competition or steel animals. It is a big improvement over the Winchester, but it is still not exactly the right configuration for me. Too heavy for hunting, ok for informal paper. I would be better served with a 26-28" standard half barrel, on a #3, and likely in .45-70 as I have more experience with that round. The greasers take up too much case space with black, and I have not yet found the right combo for bullet, paper thickness, and crimp with the patched bullets. Paper/black appeals to me, but it has been frustrating - but I have not given up. I have considered a re-chamber to .40-82. Why not sell it? It is just fine for paper, could work on steel, ok for stand hunting, and I have bought a Ruger No. 1 SC (26" heavier [8# naked] .45-70) that could serve my still hunting needs. Not an 1884, but.... best wishes, jack

Two other things: Do not overlook the Military or Business rifles for hunting purposes. I have also been reluctant to get into casting. That may be necessary to be a successful BPCR shooter. jt

jt: hang around here long enough and some of our experts like Sharpsguy will have you shooting that rifle well in no time. Stick with it!

Jt two of my main rifles have 30 inch heavy barrels, and a third one has a 30 inch heavy round barrel... Feller just needs to buff up a bit to go hunting, and slings are nice things.
To get your patched bullets to shooting in that 40-65 you will definetly have to start casting your own. You'll need a bullet about .390-395 diameter. Or if you go with a 400 dia bullet then you'll be patching closer to groove diameter and having to seat the bullet's deep like a greaser to get them to chamber.
Besides all that it's cheaper to cast your own,than it is to buy ready mades, and that alone will have you shooting more, and shooting more will make load developement quicker and easier.

Thanks JT, the 40-65 i was talking about is a very heavy target type rifle, but after carrying a 14 lb 577 Nitro double, rifle weight is a non-issue with me, and the way i still hunt it works out perfectly, walk a bit, then glass.

My '74 Sharps is a 45-120, I will develop an accurate PP load for hunting and light target shooting, the 550 gn PP bullet at 1500 fps should work fine for Deer, Elk, Hogs, and Bison.

Gunner


And as Jorge stated, a wealth of info is available right here.

Fixt

jorge1, you think? I am almost resigned that I am going to have to roll my own bullets. I was going to sell it, but one of SG's deciples (I think) a local physician whom shoots with a gentleman over in east Texas, talked me into keeping on keeping on. My biggest gripe w/paper is that when I unload, most of the time my bullet stays in the barrel. Card wads keep the powder from dumping, but it is still a PIA. Not a problem on paper targets, just shoot, but for hunting there are times when unloading is called for. I am down to about .392 wrapped to .399. The taper crimp die may be a bit over sized, but they just don't hold. thanks, jack

The OLD time PP hunting slugs were tapered.

LMAO ET, and lets not forget the elusive and highly prized blue nosed kawildabeast

Gunner

You might want to give Steve Baldwin in Jones Oklahoma a call he builds BPCR rifles and sights.

http://www.baldwin-sights.com/