Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles What does 223AI mean?

oh, I wouldn't call it provocation DF...

what I'd call it is entertainment...

as I compared Schtick to throwing a stick for our Lab Retriever... throw him a stick 100 times and he'll bring it back 101 times...

priming Schticks pump, you'll notice he always has to have the last word... another short man syndrome trait...

He's getting a lot said under his current posting restriction. That's real efficiency, for sure.

Not matter what each may think of him, don't we all read his postings? I know I do.

And you're right, provocation does go both ways.

DF

well, somebody is casting a fly, and somebody is biting on it...

but you're right...regardless of who is doing what to whom, it is some damn fine entertainment!!!

Ok. I don't use steel case ammo and have no idea how it would work in an AI chamber with crush. Don't know if it would fireform or how well. That's irrelevant anyway since you're not gonna reload that stuff. Velocity would be down from a std. 223. Unless you're just really horny to make something go bang, why even bother?

AI cartridges are "improved" cartridges. Wildcat brass is modified before it can be shot.

You're unclear about this. Obviously watch pressure, but equal pressure doesn't matter. It's about speed at best accuracy, not about the maximum. Just look for the most accurate load with each chambering and record velocity. That's it. AI cartridges like to be pushed and shoot really well on the topend, std cartridges may/may not.

Look, it's not that hard. You're making this into a lot more than it needs to be. Find the most accurate .223 load for that barrel and velocity will be whatever it is. Rechamber to .223AI with the exact SAME web and neck dia, and EXACT SAME throat. With the SAME powder and brass, go up 'til you find best accuracy fireforming. Do the same with formed cases. I'd be using 50 gr bullets.

You're wanting to prove that all the people who shoot these things and get more velocity really don't know as much as you. You won't. You'll find that you really don't know squat about this stuff.

Wow, these AI owners are almost as touchy as the .270 owners.

Here it is. I wanted to throw 75's which needed a faster twist. It cost nothing more to go AI than standard. There is no con to the AI and a lot of pro.

Truth, distilled....
For anyone that doubts that how about you list off some cons of going AI?

Almost...

DF

I think steel cases may split. I don't think steel, no matter how soft, would be as ductile as annealed brass. And, as you said, why fire form something you can't reload or shouldn't, anyway.

Interesting question, I guess...?

Another non-problem for a non-AI guy...

DF

No, this IS about maximum velocities because that is the question which was asked. The accuracy I obtain from this old barrel is immaterial since, when I'm done, the barrel will be scrap anyway. I'm doing this to illuminate what appears to be a dark shadow aroung the 'fire. I will test things in such a way that variables are minimized if not eliminated all together. While testing for velocity, I will also be able to test for case stretching and the requirement (or not) for trimming. These are things that I would expect that people would like to see quantified. I've done a lot of testing like this before and have a pretty good idea of what's required to maintain validity. Mind you, most such testing I did about 25 years ago so maybe things have changed in the interim. If so, I will get to learn something as will any other open minded individual who cares to do so.
By the way, also in my spare time, I am testing the performance improvement realized with the 303 Epps. This is an improved cartridge which substantially increases powder capacity so should make serious gains in performance as well. The amazing thing with this test, so far, has been the velocity levels I have reached with the standard 303 with no indication of excessive pressure (This in a strong action, mind you; the pressure would most definitely be excessive in a Lee Enfield) 174 grain bullets at 2720 is pretty impressive for the old war horse.
One real advantage to the Epps cartridge is that one may chamber a strong actioned rifle for the Epps and make it impossible to inadvertently fired a hot load in his Lee Enfield. The same would be true with the 30/40 Improved. You don't want to be shooting a hot load through a fine old Krag. GD

No you really don't get it. And if accuracy isn't in the equation your test will be meaningless. Load workup is done by shooting groups.....you've done that, right? Max velocity is irrelevant without if it's not the most accurate. It's about actual working field loads hitting what's in the crosshairs. Once more.....AI cartridges are accurate at full power where others have to be backed off. This isn't difficult, are you too friggin' stupid to understand?

But the 303 Epps? One of the most popular rounds out there. Everybody shoots those things. Way to go.

Pretty bold blanket statement.....I have two 300WM's that shoot better the harder I push them, My 7mm08 shoots great at max pressure as does my 270 Win...this assumption holds no water!

You're right. So many different cartridges and I didn't take them all into account. Wasn't thinking in terms of your 300WM, or 7mm or .270. I've also had guns that were accurate at higher velocity than others, same standard chambering. Accuracy also wasn't as fast as the AI version and sometimes a lot slower. So ok...... how's this: AI cartridges like to be accurate at full power while others VERY OFTEN have to be backed off.

And also say.....the extra velocity comes from both more powder and an affinity for top end loads.

Only negative I can think of is up-front cost. Dies are usually pricier. Add to that the cost of AI'ing a standard chamber, which is obviously nil if going the custom route.....which I do.

Anybody that says fireforming is an added cost don't know what they're talking about. You can kill stuff while fireforming. No need to waste even 1 bullet. I sometimes go the Bullseye/COW route in my garage to form a few.....just to get things going.

No Ackman, you don't get it. The question asked was regarding velocity difference and that is the question we will answer. If we want to determine which is more accurate, well, we can do that too but not this time around. In order to do that, I would have to build a 223 on a platform which would be sufficiently accurate to show the difference and I'm not going to spend that kind of money on this exercise. Because of the vagaries of rifle building, barrel performance with use, and the effect of weather on performance of rifle and shooter, a single barrel is not sufficient to determine accuracy capability with two cartridges.
Back in 1978 I had a 6x47 with which I won all sorts of hardware and even prize money and merchandise in registered benchrest matches. It was a heck of a shooter and treated me well. Of course, at about that time, the 6mm PPC was coming on and I couldn't leave that six by alone so I set it back and chambered for the PPC. It never did shoot as well as it did as a 6x47. Now, while this was certainly the case, I would be a complete fool (some plainly think I'm already there anyway!)to claim the 6x47 was more accurate than the PPC. Indeed, my other rifle which was a PPC won even more for me than did that old 6x47. The point is, it takes much more than a sample of one to prove the accuracy potential of a cartridge. Proving a velocity advantage though, mandates the use of a single barrel to be in any way valid.
As I said, this particular barrel, while it looks pretty decent, may or may not shoot all that well with either chamber.
What's more, I don't really care. The purpose of this particular trial is to determine the velocity increase possible along with other potential advantages and this I will do.

I'll tell you a little story regarding velocity, case shape, and accuracy. The cartridge this time around was the 270 Winchester and the rifle was a Model 70 of about 1986 vintage. The owner worked up a load using a 150 grain hornady bullet which he could drive at just over 2900 fps. Accuracy was great with five shot groups of 3/4 or less being fairly common. He wanted more speed so I chambered it for the 270 Ackley. He could now reach 3000 fps but accuracy suffered unless he dropped back to that same low 2900's level. The next chamber was the 270 Gibbs. This got him up over 3050 but with the same accuracy results. For the final chamber, I had to set the barrel back. I did so and opened the bolt face to accept the 270 Weatherby for which the barrel was now chambered. Velocity was now pushing 3200 and accuracy was decent at that velocity but STILL the best accuracy was at just over 2900 fps. Plainly, in this particular instance, case design, capacity, and headstamp had less to do with the accuracy achieved than did the rifle itself. Does this mean the chambering is meaningless as far as accuracy is concerned? Of course not. A sample of one is meaningless.
Another story; I once fired a match from a bench beside L.E. (Sam) Wilson. Sam was shooting his heavy bench rifle which was, at that time, chambered for the .223. His aggregate was, as I recall, in the low .190's at 100 yards. I was second with an agg which was not nearly as fancy. I shudder to think how badly he would have beaten me if he'd chambered that thing for an AI . By the way, we both blew up at 200 yards and the only person who shot worse than I did was Sam. By that time, he was having trouble seeing (he was in his eighties). I could see just fine but had trouble interpreting what I saw. With my eyes and his brain, I think we could have done well. Sadly, I now have his eyes and am still stuck with my brain! GD

DS,

I can't like 7828 in anything. '17 do nice things in the 243/243AI with heavier boolits,though I'm admittedly a '22 Slut with upper echelon BC's and much prefer the Improved version over SAAMI.

Pistol primers too?!!?

Laffin'.






dumbdog,

I'm REALLY [bleep] enjoying,just how [bleep] incredibly [bleep] stupid you are...especially given the fact that you are doing your best.

Wow!





Shefire,

You Do-nothing Dumbphucks commenting upon all the things you nearly did,with all the wares you nearly had and from all the places you nearly been to...is hardly "original". 'Tis the oldest of factoids,that them that cain't,simply fabricate and Sugar Titts,your Imagination so seamlessly bolsters your Pretend,that you are oblivious and schit don't get ANY [bleep] funnier than that.

The whiningest of the Do-Nothing Dumbphucks,takes the the longest of routes to skirt particulars and portray themselves as the perpetually maligned victim. As per always,I'm groovin' on your Pity Party. It don't get any [bleep] funnier,than to grant you the bandwidth upon which you can extoll your "knowledge","experience" and "firsthand accountings",as you feverishly fight to become the first Do-Nothing Dumbphuck to bitch herself happy.

Congratulations?




'215,

Favored twist rate,barrel length and donor action?

Thanks!





DF,

I ain't much fun to keep pace with,but do admittedly enjoy them under the illusion of having a [bleep] chance.


It cracks me up.(grin)






Delgue,

Remember to roll hooks outta Do-Nothing Dumbphucks mouths,punt 'em back into the drink and repeat as per whim.


Rest assured,the inherent hilarity never wanes.








'beeman,

It's always [bleep] hilarious,to let them who only shoot their mouths,to "critique" a chambering,boolit,mounting system or glass.

As you so eloquently quantify.

Congratulations?





CUBIC,

My fingers are crossed,that poor dumb greydog does her best on her "Test" in regards to the SAAMI 223 and the 223AI. If she can get the hair net outta her eyes and the Paper Hat to stay in place,mebbe she'll feel emboldened to whistle the 75A-Max through the slower twist,if only to bolster the Do-Nothing Gangs "findings" on slow twist rate much increasing velocity.

Laffin'!

Sheesh, you're a sure'nuff real hero.......a legend in your own mind, as much of a windbag as that other windbag. And just as dopey.

Yeah the question was about velocity difference. How many people you know look for max pressure or velocity of any cartridge - with no group testing - then just load up and go use it without even knowing how well it shoots? Do you think - just maybe - the fellow was wanting to know about how much "real" difference to expect from "real life" loads that he'd use while "really" shooting in the field?

Rechambering a factory barrel to AI would be fine, doesn't matter if it's used or not. "Vagaries of rifle building"....."weather"....what crap. And yes, a single barrel also is fine for comparing the two. Whatever the accuracy is, as an AI it'll be the same with about the same load except using more powder and going faster. If you had a clue, you'd know that. I don't see how somebody with your - claimed - credentials can be so ignorant about this stuff.

Sometimes this chit cracks me up... Tonight is one of those times. Thanks!