Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting How many of you shoot /hunt long range....

....without a rangefinder?My reason for asking that I do not and it is a matter of personal choice as I guess I like to keep the unknown variable in it.

I used to be addicted to groundhog hunting.The further the better.Also I used to shoot quite a bit of centerfire silhouette and dabble a bit in highpower.But both of these are at known ranges.

What prompted this post is that one time a silhouette buddy and I were groundhog hunting at an old country airport where if there were any shots along the runway I knew the distance because I knew how far the landing lights were apart.He was getting ready to take a shot and I asked how far away he thought the hog was and he said that it was at least turkeys.Turkeys being 365 meters.The shot was in reality 250 yards.Funny how real world guesstimating differs from the range.But that's what makes it so much fun.

My longest groundhog shot was just shy of 900 yards.Just me a sandbag the gun and the car hood.If I ever saw a deer at that range it would live to be a ripe old age.I have had the opportunity to take a long shot at a deer a few times but didn't.Just me I guesss. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm sorry but LR Hunting without knowing the range is foolish.If you do not use a rangefinder,how do you know the groundhog was 900 yards.Just a guess??? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Another one who thinks long range hunting without knowing the range is incredibly foolish. My Leica is with me always.


huntin1

Boyd,Didn't say I didn't have one.I always measure after the shot.The fun is knowing the distance after a sucessful shot.Having an accurate rifle/scope set up doesn't hurt either.I believe you know the gentlemen that built mine.That would be Clarence Hammonds and Dick Thomas.

I'll join those who think it's idiotic. Varmint shooting and target shooting is the place to add in "extra challenges" for the fun of it. On big game I want to make the best shot I can possibly make--and that means knowing the exact range at ranges when your bullet is dropping 1-2 inches every 10 yards, much less 5" every 10 yards....

To me that would be no different than taking a medium range shot offhand when there's a steady rest available "just for the fun of it."

Like I said,I'm sorry but LR Hunting without knowing the range is foolish.

Yes I know the names.But because they built your gun really means nothing.People that poke and hope such as yourself give true LR Hunters like myself a bad name....

Even at the ground hog? I'm not talking big game hunting here just something that hunters have been doing long before there were rangefinders.Let's talk praire dog hunting.Indeed let's talk varmint hunting.Varmint hunters have been bragging about their long range shots long before the advent of the rangefinder be it one of the laser variety or split image etc.Didn't mean to fan any flames here as the question was do you use one or not.Many a ground hog has fallen to the boom of a 22/250 or 243 at unknown distances without the aid of a Lieka.To me it is a matter of preference and if the shot is a safe shot then take it.Did somebody mention big game? How did that get in here?I said ground hog hunting

284LUVR,

I'm with you here. Long before I purchased the Lieca 1200, I was shooting rock chucks more than five hundred yards away. I know the ranges because I measured the distances between wheels on a wheeline; after the shot. Or on another field, it is a quarter mile across then another fifty yards to the rocks.

For me the fun of "long-range" hunting is to be able to apply a scientific method that allows for the least number of variables possible to the furthest distance possible. Truth is, if i didn't have my laser (God forbid), i'd apply a two stadia+ reticle for ranging, as it is better then guessing for me, and it has worked for me on occasion to 725 yds.

What i'd like to do sometime is make a 633 yd. 1st shot connection in a 14 mph wind (or thereabouts) on a prairie dog/chuck/whatever that i used the reticle itself to range the critter with--the end result of a good windage, elevation, and ranging call, all in one. That's what i call an accomplishment. BUT, THEN AGAIN, TO EACH HIS OWN!

284, I believe your post said shoot/hunt. I would call ground hogs varminting. Thats where it got twisted about.

SS-- stadia wires might be fine on ghogs-- have not much experience with them, but lots of animals vary in size enough to complicate things. Same use of mildot systems. You have to know the target size exactly to get the distance exact.

Without a rangefinder its not going to be as precise.

I made a post in here last nite also, still wondering how that one dissappeared.....

Jeff

rost495,



Maybe you didn't range it correctly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

.....and there's an awful lot of us standin' in that line <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Okay, now I'm just asking an honest question here, but which is it - equipment or human skill?

Seems all of the attacks against long range hunting center around the possibility of wounding, and all of the rebuttals center around how the shot is not quesswork but the result of knowing everything exactly. Range finders determine the range to +- 1 yard, computer programs determine any adjustments for atmospheric conditions, rifle is precise enough to maintain 1/2 or 1/4 MOA out to 1000 yards, so on and so forth.

But now someone is saying how cool it would be to make a shot based on human experience and skill - "the end result of a good windage, elevation, and ranging call, all in one. That's what i call an accomplishment" (bold mine).

Isn't that what the anti-long range hunters are taking pride in, their human skills versus using equipment to eliminate all variables?

"For me the fun of "long-range" hunting is to be able to apply a scientific method that allows for the least number of variables possible to the furthest distance possible" (again bold mine).

So what is valued most? Human skill or the total elimination of human error?

Again, asking an honest question here, not tyring to provoke anything. I've stayed out of these debates because too many people seem to get real defensive about this subject, so I'd appreciate it if no one cusses me for seeking clarification.

When do you wanna see it??

Jim

It takes both. It takes skill beyond most to be able to shoot the rifle to the level needed. Add the computer type components to that formula and you have exactly what you need.

IE I know that with a sling prone, my wobble area on a bad day is about .5 moa. Thats not good but it can get better. I know this due to an electronic trainer. BUT I CANNOT effect a precise hit without lots of other data after about 300 yards or so.

Jeff

Boyd ,Hunting conditions,no bench,no front rest.

Shoot from bipod or sand bag.

Powerline ,open field or such.

No sighters, one shot,groundhog target and your word that you won't be out there bangin' away at 633 to get ready.Like I said,hunting conditions.


How are we going to get the weather to cooperate...14mph wind?

I believe the above replicate real world hunting conditions.

Comments from campfire members???




Name the time and place.You do it Sir and I'll buy you the best meal you can find in Williamsport and shake your hand afterwards.If you miss that will cost you one beer and a hand shake ,of course.

[qote]Boyd ,Hunting conditions,no bench,no front rest.

Shoot from bipod or sand bag.
u
Powerline ,open field or such.

No sighters, one shot,groundhog target and your word that you won't be out there bangin' away at 633 to get ready.Like I said,hunting conditions.


How are we going to get the weather to cooperate...14mph wind?

I believe the above replicate real world hunting conditions.

Comments from campfire members???




Name the time and place.You do it Sir and I'll buy you the best meal you can find in Williamsport and shake your hand afterwards. [/quote]

GET RESERVATIONS!!!!

Belly shooting off a bipod.I can use my "Hunting" gun,right???Can I use a rear sand sock or bag?? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />...Now would it be a 100,300 or 500 yard groundhog target????I have a ton of all.Let me know..I give you my word.No shooting...With hunting season coming up I will be busy the next few weeks.You are more than welcome to join me a day or two.Ok just to make this interesting.If the wind is below 14mph.We will move the target to 683 or maybe 700 yards if you wish.Fair is fair.If I don't do it I will buy you the best meal you can find.I hear Micky D's has some fine grub <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />..Where abouts do you live????

Do people really carry that much equipment with them hunting. I have ranged distances in some of the fields I hunt and power lines, but not while I'm hunting. Which I have never been varmint shooting. I do shoot my rifles during the year to stay tunned up for hunting deer. I pactice at different distances 100, 300, 500. Thats range finder distance. I have both my bean field rifles zero at 300yds. I however do not take many shots at deer over 350 yds. I have made some one shot kills at 450-500yds, but I only take those long shots if conditions are good. I do think that anyone who takes a hailmarry shot and really do'nt know what there rifle does at long range is irresponsible. I hear guys talking about they shot one at 400yds and they got blood and where bragging about. That dumb, but I think most hunters will agree that if you shoot enough deer sooner or later one will get away or you will miss no matter what the range.

Yes we do take that much equipment in the field.You are correct you must know what you and your rig is cappable of at long range.Example we spotted a small herd of Antelope migrating down distant plateau we stayed low out of sight and reached our vantage spot,but the Antelope were still a long way out and my partner ranged the one we wanted @ 777 yards as I got set-up and checked the wind with my pocket weahter station and found the wind to be 10 mph and Quartering toward us,which meant a 1/2 value wind, then I checked my drop chart for my load @ this alltitude and saw that I needed 12.75 moa of verticule adjustment above my zero which is 2 moa high @ 100 yards and 1moa of windage I adjustted the Nightforce 3.5X15 NXS scope and shooting from a bipod I held on the front shoulder, I was concentrating on the sight picture and my partner said hold it the wind speed lessened when the wind picked up and steaded he said" send it"the trigger broke and I saw the Speed Goat just collapse straight down.This is how to hunt long range and not leave anything to chance.I do not know Boyd Heaton personally, but If he say's that he can he can hit a PD @ whatever distance and conditions I believe him because I know of his reputation and he has been shooting and hunting @ longrange longer than I have and taken game @ ranges that I am not ready for,I am talking ranges that most can't even imagine

Boyd thanks for the reply.Yeah,pretty much a hunting gun.Hunting type stock as in one found on a factory gun.Size,shape,weight,etc.Just tryin' to make it "real world".

Please understand that this is not a flame or a taunt in ANY form. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />I truly like to watch someone who enjoys his "work".We both may make a new friend.A shot of that distance isn't that hard.It's the wind factor that picked my ears up.Tried highpower a few times and that's out to 600yds.with iron sights so you get my drift.

Thanks for the invite.I'm leaving for English Center(Lycoming)sometime tomorrow to try a new spot.Where abouts do you hunt?

Let's talk food!!! Mickey Ds double quarter pounder with cheese.Yeah baby. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I live in York Co. not far from Wrightsville.

Hope you had a great Thanksgiving.

Some day I'll make it to Williamsport and watch you guys shoot.

comments.... 14mph is a bit more than your average wind speed. Most folks overestimate wind speeds. Ya ought to hear em guess real speeds at Perry.....

Jeff

That's interesting, like I said I have not done any ground hog or have I hunted antelope. I was not questioning Boyd's skill I was just amazed that you guys carried that much stuff. I see from your post that you also have a spotter with you. Is this the case everytime you go hunting. I have been to Wyoming, Idaho,and South Dakota and it does look like it would be hard to get real close to the antelope. What I saw was wide open country. My limit on distance for now is 500 yds. That's as far as I feel comfortable with. I feel like my rig will to better but I'm not ready. It has taken a while to get to that, but most of the deer I kill are 100 and closer, but I do practice for that long shot. I remeber watching some nice bucks walk off at long range because I was scared to shoot. I know 500 yds may not be extreme long range, but for me thats extreme range for me.

With some practice and the right scope(one that has absolutly repetable turrets) 500 yards will become very doable.It is so much easier with a hunting partner as when you are concentrating on the shot it is diffcult to noitce slight wind change etc. the longer the range the more crittical things become,knowing the wind speed is important (not guessing) for one shot kills and remmber if conditions are not right you do not have to shot

Well the gun(my hunting gun) will be a 30" barreled 300 Ultramag Shooting a 210gr JLK bullet to an ave of 3346fps(don't try that at home folks) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> in a Sendero Stock.Will that work???. I was just up that way last Tuesday.I spend some time up Pine Creek and the Hyner area.I live in Lock Haven... I look foward to meeting you.Good luck to you in deer season...From what I saw up there...You will need it.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Boyd, Heading out the door in a few hours to the "no deer area".Last year I spent some time above English Center on the barrens and it looked promising.On the downside last year I didn't see one deer hangin' in front of a camp in that region.The owner of the Mountaintop Inn in Haneyville, Lee?, said he has never seen it so bad and he's a hunter.Nice guy.Saw some really nice bears down the street from there.Anyhoo here comes another flatlander to the mountains.Sold my property down here 2 years ago so off to the hills I go.At the old place it was called deer gettin' not deer huntin'so I'm going to have to work a little(a lot).

What are we going to do about that wind issue?I can bring my generater and run back and forth with a fan <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

We're on the same page about the equipment.Just didn't want somebody to show up with a Heavy bench or rail gun.

Peace,
284

Jim, that the anti-long-range hunters take pride in something other than long-range hunting is fine-- heck let them-- as my Philippino wife says-- "It's a free country". What i'm talking about is the "anti" part. I also take pride in things that i do, but i try not to criticize and attack others, unless someone's doing something that's blatantly wrong-- and then u can bet it'll be as tactful as i can muster. Criticizing doesn't have anything to do with pride. That's what i don't like much-- i mean really-- who does like criticism??

The accomplishment for me is to use my "human skills" to properly use the equipment (like a scope-- a reticle--a target turret--a rifle) to minimize the variables---FOR ME, JUST ME, no one else. Whatever someone else wants to do is fine with me. Heck-- i'm a traditional archery hunter too, which is a different type of "human skill", but i don't criticize rifle hunters because of it.

Of all the forums i've ever been on, the long-range hunting forums have some of the most educated individuals I've ever known or even heard of. Some of these guys have lost their wives over their zeal for the discipline, they're so addicted to it. U know what i'd like to see sometime. I'd like to see 1---JUST 1 of those anti's that have ever even seen what some of these guys r doing. They're TOTALLY dedicated to what they do, and if some r compromising their personal life for it, u can bet that when someone they don't even know tells them that what they're doing is WRONG it isn't gonna fly.

Now, i know that reticle ranging isn't definitively precise-- obviously not even close to the laser -- that would mean it would not have been perfectly calculated-- but in truth how many would know for instance how to apply Leupold's Varmint Hunter reticle as a reticle-ranging system to longer ranges than it's meant for (<= 300 yds.). Heck for that matter how many could even calculate just how big the pr. dog is that Leupold uses as their "std." for their ranging system? The point i was trying to make is that it's somewhat better than guessing. It really does create a sense of pride-- WHEN it works, as crude as it may be.

When humans strive to accomplish a difficult goal innovation occurs-- ballistic reticles, target turrets, Elmer Laitala's Super Long-Range Scope Mounts, meplat uniforming, VLD bullets, the modified mil-ranging formula, flintlocks, etc. ad infinitum. If a guy wants to try to shoot a prairie dog @ 632.4 yds. in a 13.95 mph wind-- heck, let him. If an anti-long-range hunter wants to go dig up the pr. dog hole, to get a wounded pr. dog out of it (whether it's a 632.4 yd. shot or a 400 yd. shot) to show his buddies he's right----- what the heck, let him do that too. But if that "anti" attempts to draw first blood from me because of it-- he better draw it all the 1st time.

I own a rangefinder. In areas I frequent, I'll range the distances, and have made long shots.

If I can, I want to make a one shot kill. A rangefinder helps me do that. That's okay with me.

If I can't accurately gauge the distance, I limit myself accordingly. Since my rifles have a point blank range of near 400 yds, I'm not limited that badly.

I wonder what's more ethical-- a tactical 633 yd. shot in a 14 mph wind on a prairie dog, or a running antelope in no wind @ 250 yds. quartering away.

Those point blank ranges of 400 yards just plain scare me. Add in all the other variables and simply aiming and shooting can go from a kill to a wound in a hurry.

Of course if you use the point blank up close and aim low, dead on mid range and aim high at 400 AND consider the wind, then it works out pretty good. Assuming a MOA gun, MOA hold and no overt errors along the way.

250 yard running shot-- nope not for me. I cannot hit things moving, and so choose to not do it. I'd bet for a shot that was good on moving game a 200ish yard shot wouldn't be all that tough.

Jeff

I ran the balistics on my 7MM STW. 130 G.S. Custom @3,600feet per second with a .500 B.C. It is sighted in at 330 yards. Computer prints the following.
100 yards +2.4"
200 yards +3.4"
300 yards +3.6"
400 yards -4.7"

kcm270 may have a similar trajectory. If he does, he certainly doesn't need to adjust much at "near 400 yards."

Ringman, have you ever run those over a chronograph at 200 or 300 yds?

JonA,

That sounds like a fun project. The above info came from the computer. My real life experience was sighting in 3" high at 100 and trying it at 300. To my surprise the groups centered 3" high!

As soon as the wet weather stops, I will give it a try.

I was hoping not to have to explain this one. I thought it was totally clear. But here we go. Lets assume moa accuracy. 400 yards. Drops 5 inches. Group size is 4 inches. Wobble area of 1moa(thats a pretty tight wobble for most folks) thats another 4 inches. Now go to the extreme of the group(very possible for any given shot) you could easily come up with a real error of 13 inches on a shot. And again the tight extreme could show the error either in wind or elevation. IE you could hold dead on and show zero drop at 400. I've heard that claimed. I'm sure it was fluke shots or pure luck on the shots.

What I'm saying is point blank is not all its made out to be.

Now since I'm a top competitor I'll agree that things could be better than what I've stated but thats pretty rare. In fact a rifle that will shoot a 4 inch group at 400 yards is pretty rare unless its a custom tube. And someone holding 1 moa or less is pretty rare too for a wobble area.

Jeff

That's the main reason i use the CMPBR approach, and i wish it were written like this in articles i've seen it explained in, but i've never seen Max. point blank range written up wisely. I always use CONSERVATIVE MPBR on all my rigs-- which should be established for about 1/2 most tgt. sizes.

On a New Mexico coues hunt this year, I forgot the Leica rangefinder at home. I had left it in the range box from the day before I left when I was shooting 400-600 yards. (So much for using mental checklists) Boy, did I feel naked, as those canyons were often too wide to be quessing yardages. Fortunately (in this respect), I did not see a shootable coues. A friend had his rangefinder, but we were not always glassing together.

RR

I agree with those who think long range hunting is irresponsible and unethical IF the shooter doesn't know the exact range to the target. The only way know that is with a rangefinder - period. If you don't want to use a rangefinder stay away from long range shooting at animals. Even a rat deserves a clean kill.

when sharps first started putting scopes on there rifles. many asked what they were for, sharps replied they were for beginners..or those who lack the skill to stalk within range...think about it..

RLB,



Go away. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

RLB, go over to the handgun hunting forum and tell them about your stalking skills. I've often used an open sighted handgun to hunt with myself, but this forum is about long range shooting and how to do it. The dos and don'ts were all hashed out long before you showed up and I doubt anyone wants to see a replay. You might check the archives. Please contribute something positive if you can or will.

my point was taken ...thank you.
have a nice day..

Boyd, Back from the mountains.No deer.But I did have a nice eight point stand next to the truck while we were in it.Pretty neat.The barrens is aptly named ,heard maybe a dozen shots in a couple of days.

Anyways If you would like to show me your stuff and get together it would be fun and a day in the mountains is always a good day.Bring an appetite,I'll buy.

Guys: I just got interested in shooting/hunting at 1000 yds. and need your help. I like to include elk as the heaviest game. Has anybody figure out the energy, momentum, and velocity required at 1000 yards to kill an elk, assuming a broadsided shot? What calibers and bullet weights will penetrate and expand at this yardage?

As for equipment I believe a rangefinder is a must. Fine. I own a Leica 1200, but how about rifles. Do I need a custom made rifle or barrel? I would like to limit the rifle and scope weight to about 9 lbs. I prefer to put up with a detachable muzzle brake than with extra weight.
And the scope? Any preferences on brand names, magnif. and click adjustments?
Calibers? Any commercial caliber sufficient or do I need a wildcat? I am getting up in years and I will not use anything that will take 100 grs. of powder or so.
A wind checker? Which ones?
By the way, I would like to buy a good and reasonable priced ballistic program. I have heard of Infinity from Sierra but don't know anything about it.

I know I will be getting responses with different brand names and specs. This is fine as this is part of the fun. I also realize that this is a controversial item and that I will probably be getting some heat. This is fine too, as this is also part of the fun.

OK fellows. I realize that I have made a lot of questions. I really appreciate your time and help.

There are certainly people on the forum better suited to give you advice than I, but if you are looking at ballistic programs take a look at the one put out by the makers of the Shooting Crony. That program gives you the come ups at various ranges based upon your load and it was a real help to me. Does anyone know of another program that does this?

In our country, there are several spot and shoot hunters and every year some of them take deer between 500 and 750 yards. All of the them have spotting scopes, range finders and top of the line scopes which allow them to quickly adjust for differing ranges. They also never shoot at a moving deer at that range.

JBD
Thank you for your response. I will check the Chrony ballistic program.

Central CA
Thank you for answering back. I was sure there were out there some dedicated shooters that were proficient in shooting at long distances, wether they were just punching holes on paper or in actual hunting. I have a lot of respect for these guys who have spent hours in practicing and have spent their money in the proper equipment that makes them confident when taking a long shot.

A couple of additional thoughts. First, I use the ballistics tables at the back of my old Hornady reloading manual and I have memorized them for the two rifles I shoot (308 and 7 Rem Mag). As an example - the 7 Mag sighted 4.50 inches high at 100 yards is plus 6" at 200 yards and dead on at just over 350 yards. My drop at 400 yards is 7 inches. So, I hold low in close and high at long range. Secondly, my scope allows me to estimate range out to 800 +/- yards (well beyond my comfort level). However, out to 500 yards on a standing deer I feel comfortable taking the shot. Inside 400 I am comfortable no matter what the deer is doing. To round out the picture, we hunt the Coastal Range of Ca in Central Ca. near Coalinga. Long range abilites are a must since the average shot is something over 200 yards and you must be competant at least to 300 yards to be successful year in / year out. We use the "jump" style of hunting (some folks call it dogging) and often you can not see the deer you jump until he shows up on the opposite sidehill. I guess the short story here is 1. Memorize your ballistics tables. 2. Know your personal limitations. 3. Buy good optics. 4. Purchase a rifle that performs to your needs and 5. Sight your rifle according to the reange requirements in the country you hunt.

Central CA.
Thank you again for the info. Your words are encouraging and very much appreciated.

I am wrestling with 2 items. One is the rifle caliber although I think I am covered since I own bolt rifles in 6.5X55, .270 W, 7X57, 30-06 and .300WSM. Although probably all of them would work I have'nt

The second item is the scope and my thoughts are to pick a caliber and load and have customized (up to 1000 yds.) a Leupold 3.5X10X40 I own.
I believe that the standard knobs would be replaced with target-style knobs, but after reading your post I came to realize that I might not have time to remove the dust caps from the knobs and then dial the right distance. But on the other hand you must have time to range the deer before you shoot. What do you think of this idea? What scope do you have that allows you to estimate range out to 800 +/- yds?

On my .300 WSM I have mounted a Leupold B&C 3.5X10X40 where the reticle has different aiming points up to 500 yds. With a load of IMR4831 and Barnes Triple Shock 180 gr I can easily hit the metal plates up to a distance of 500 yards. Of course this is sitting at the bench. Now, beyond 500 yds. it's a different game.

I guess if you want to go beyond 500 yds. you can figure out the drop at 600, 700 yds. etc. and click the elevation adjustment accordingly or go with the installation of target-style adjustments that I mentioned previously.

Central CA:

While I was correcting the spelling on my second paragraph I don't know what happened but my keyboard froze and as I was trying to fix it I must have pressed the wrong key as my post was sent ahead of time.

Anyway, what I meant to say in that paragraph is that although I believe that any of the 5 cartridges would be adequate I have not decided yet which one will be first. I will probably have, like yourself, more than one. Regards.

Magnumo

If you are serious about pushing it past 400 or 500 you have only the wsm to choose from (IMHO) and as to custom scope--again IMHO(i've got some midrange shots under my belt between 500 and 800+ and enough of them....) you need to click anything past 300 or 400 yards really. And so you will probably have time to do it and use it. First you'll have to range the distance with a rangefinder. Stadia wires etc... in a scope do NOT cut the mustard! Second thought is that if you dedicate a scope and dots to one round, thats it for that scope. YOu might like this and then want a better gun etc..

GO this route first and you'll be better. Check this out too.

www.longrangehunting.com Lots of info.

Jeff

Magnumo. If you are serious about true long range shooting, I would take 300 WSM if recoil is not a problem for you. All of the rifles you list will do, but personally, I would want the heaviest bullet I could get moving at higher fps to buck wind drift and retain additional energy at the ranges we are discussing.

And, I agree with Rost495. If you are serious about 500 yard + shooting, you need a range finder. My point was, under that range, there are ways to do it and not carry a significant amount of additional weight. Also, please note that we (our hunting crew) limit our shooting to 500 yard shooting or under. As I stated in my initial post, the guys in our area who shoot deer at ranges over 500 yards have spotting scopes, range finders, and optics on their rifles that allow them to adjust for range out to 800 yards. They set up in one place and sit and spot. Then, if they spot a buck or pig they want they use their range finders, dope the wind, adjust their scopes, and then attempt the shot. They shoot a variety of calibers, starting with the 270 and going on up throught the big ultra Magnums.

284LUVR,
I always use a rangefinder, even in Louisiana there are a few of us that collect game at an extended distance. I have taken deer at 335 yards with a .243 Winchester in a Remington 600. That is about the practical limit for a 100 grain Partition fired from this paticular rifle. When I am in one of my 35 foot tall tower stands I use one of the following: .257 Wby, .270 Win, .270 Wby, 7mm STW, .300 RUM, .30/378 Wby, and so on. The things you will find in my drag bag with each one of these rifles is a range card with the real world impacts at the actual ranges that I fired the rifle/bullet combination, not what the computers or charts will tell you, a laser rangefinder that checks itself for an exact distance, and last but not least a benchrest (not generally in the drag bag). About the only thing I will guess at is if the deer is running, how much do I need to lead it. Four years ago I guessed at a shot at a really nice buck, I guessed it was 335 yards and shot, it was 285 yards. I was shooting a .308 Win in a Remington 700 VS with a Barnes 165 grain coated bullet. In a word it was a clean miss, I guess it was so close to the top of his back he thought he was hit. He spun around a couple of times and stated running right toward me. I sat still and he ran up to 160 yards before stopping. I chambered another round and that one made it's mark. I have been shooting for so many years, ever so often I get the big head and take a shot based on a guess and some of them will come back to bite me on the ass. Earlier this season I took a large doe a 525 yards with the .30/378 Weatherby, it was an easy shot with a rangefinder and a Ziess scope. I guess what I getting at is, that I have been shooting high-powered rifles for about 40 years and still make mistakes guessing at what range is it.

I noticed in you handle you like .284 Winchesters, I have one in a rebarreled Remington 660, it is a blast to shoot! Good to see that you are a life member in the NRA, I have been a life member for about 30 years.
Have a good weekend!
Marcus