Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Smokeless?

To each his own, my post was to shed light on the beliefs that Black Powder is hard to care for and clean, it's not.

I mean heck, if it was, and didnt work well, none of us would be here today, our ancestors survived on it.

Gunner

To continue (iPhones suck), in capable hands a conventional ML is compliant with regulations across the span of this country. They surrender no advantage to inlines in application within a 100 yards and if loaded with conical bullets can and do offer superiority at long range. Conventional BP offers significant advantage in ballistic consistency as compared to subs. Lead offers superiority in terminal performance at most any range though it is a moot debate within a few hundred yards. Everyone gets to pick opinions, but facts are facts. It could be that zeal and youth overwhelm common sense, but in time most folks come to separate myth from reality.

Slumlord has one of them there Savage ML and seems to enjoy it!

To delineate my experience I have shot BP in cap and ball revolvers and sidelock rifles since I was 12. I'm now 30. I've owned half a dozen Knights and 2 TC inlines. I have shot a few smokeless muzzleloaders and own two. I do 99% of my own gun work and handload for all my guns including slug guns. I shoot for a living.

I think there is a significant difference in performance. I have shot a Bad Bull using a 275gr bullet at 3148fps to 510yds. I have shot the Savage ML-II (stock rifle except for pillar bedding) with that Barnes Original to 302yds. Bullets for this discipline are getting better and better and the performance gap is growing.

I would never try that with my Renegade LRH and PP bullet.

Could I? Maybe with enough work but I spend half of my time training or deployed so I rarely put in for draws out west (I just buy preference points). I know I can come home, grab an SML, open a can of Hodgdon/IMR or Vihtavuori and get busy confirming zero and hunting during muzzleloader season.

The OP mentioned BP but I think he just mis-spoke. I am pretty sure he meant muzzleloader. His thread was hijacked over a technicality. Both courses of action he mentioned were for smokeless. While BP may clean up easily it does require more immediate maintenance. I would never shoot a BP/Sub gun and not clean it, put a load in it, and hunt with it all season.

I know for a fact you can do that with an SML. I also know for a fact my muzzleloaders are more consistent than my slug gun which was also one of his original concerns.

Zeal....meet....Reality. I'm not pickin' on you 7mm, but have to ask what you mean when you say "slug gun". Guessin' you're not talkin' the same thing I'm thinking...like 800 grain bullets and 200 grains of powder?

You understand ML lead bullets with .3-.4 BCs have been around a long, long time?

I have both a Savage 10 ML-II and a CVA Wolf In-line.

My preference goes to the Savage, although I have taken many deer with the Wolf and do like shooting Triple 7.

The Savage is more consistantly accurate. There is very little POI deviation from shot to shot. While it takes the same amount of time and energy to clean either rifle, I can sleep at night knowing I didn't clean the Savage and don't have to worry about the corrosive qualities that all non-smokeless powders possess.

The most practical advantage that the Savage has, is that there is not a lingering white smoke cloud after the shot. If the deer runs after being hit, you can immediately detect which way it traveled making tracking much easier.

738gr Hard Cast solid over a fiber wad, gas seal, and IMR 4227 or SR4759 out of this gun:

Not exactly what I was talking about, but it prompts a question or three. What caliber, what charge and how do you muzzle load a hard cast bullet? What kind of velocity are you running with that? At what distance were those targets shot?

We're a little fixed on muzzleloading. I said I handload for this. Those targets are actually with Lightfield non-discarding sabots (total slug/sabot weight is 490gr) but the one on right was shot at 50yds and the one on left is at 100yds; both are a touch under 1.5 MOA. I have shot that gun to 200yds but any kind of wind at all makes it a 125-150yds gun.

Edit: It's a 12GA with a .731 groove diameter. The full bore solids are leaving at 1200-1300fps depending on powder and charge. The non-discarding sabots are between 1300-1500fps depending on if I load them or buy Lightfield.

Edit: The two small holes in the large orange dot were shot at 302yds with 175gr NP from a 7mm Rem Mag to confirm zero before a hunt. I moved the target and broke out the slugger after.

I always thought that was one of the best parts. Along with the sweet smell of burned black powder.

It's what muzzleloader hunting is all about, and the original idea of a primitive season. Colorado put the muzzleloader season during the rut. It's supposed to an advantage to hunt during the rut, and it done because of the limitations of a muzzleloader. When you develop the ML to perform like a CF rifle. You've lost what the ML season is suppose to be.

At least in Colorado you won't be using your sabots and smokeless guns. So, that's some consolation.

Well, not to be picky, but what does that have go do with muzzleloading?

The term "slug gun" is used in historically correct form in discussions about a discipline popular from around 1880 to present. Most of the activities surrounding such guns revolved around the National Rifle Club in the early decades. Today it continues through several organizations and locations. The NRC was revitalized not too long ago and HQ is in Cody, WY. The guns used are muzzle loaders of various bores, sabots are not used but chase and strip patch are. .50 caliber is common but the largest I've seen shoot is a .56 cal which shoots a 1300 grain 2 piece bullet thru an 18 groove barrel atop 250 gr of BP. It was built by HV Perry in the late 1800s and is more bless with accuracy an precision than your bolt gun, wind be damned. Standard competition range for these guns was 220 yards, expressed then in terms of rods. Competition was had at 40, 80, and on occasion 100 rods. Score was string measure, or the aggregate of distance of bullet hole center from POA. Matches typically run 20-30 shots. The standing record string for 20 shots at 220 yards is in the range of 5-6". I do not recall the precise number at the moment.

Can't access pics at the moment, but I have a few I'll post later for the helluva it. Until then I'd suggest that we stay on topic. There's a thread in the Big Bore forum called "12 Ga. From Hell" if you want to race on that topic.

Slug Guns:

.50 cal underhammer on Mosslander barrel



Bullets, second from right us is for the .50, an 800 grain 2 piece noserider:



Bullet on right is for the Perry rifle below and is 900 grains in 1 piece form.



My point, inasmuch as these guns are not hunting rifles is to illustrate and perhaps educate. These guns illustrate what is possible w/conventional BP, that relatively high BC bullets can and have been used for many years in muzzleloaders and there isn't much new under the sun. With all respect, there is not an inline in the market place that can run with such tools, not even close.

The gun and target below are recent production. A .40 caliber which uses a GG 350 gr. bullet of pure lead. The target was shot at 100 yards with a 10 mph crosswind. The load has not been finalized as of this writing but I'd be pleased to race this against most any inline in the country.





In short and in my opinion, the perceived advantage of inlines is nothing more than a perception. I don't care what one wishes to shoot while hunting. I'm quite comfortable in not hunting with Klingon guns myself and give up no advantage in doing so. Anyone thinking otherwise is either pushing an agenda or fulla chitt, or both.

It's only 50 yards, but it's offhand with a flinter. Top hole on the left target was a fouler and I'd be pleased to race an inline on those terms as well.



[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/Turpin-1.jpg[/img]


[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/Black%20Powder/rifles0031.jpg[/img]

Slug guns are commonly thought of as shotguns with rifled barrels.

Perhaps by the X-box generation, not by educated shooters.

I do enjoy the edjumacation I get here. Another aspect of shooting I knew nothing about. Thanks!

We got off topic in the first reply. You win though. I'd rather go back to Afghanistan than continue listening to you poo poo something different.

We have been on topic from the start. The OP inquired about BP or smokeless ML guns and we have been debating that point. As stated previously, I could not give a flip what one chooses to hunt or shoot with. It does grate a bit when recommendations are based on myth or other allegations that are unsupportable.

Would rather none of our folks were in the sand box, but if you wind up heading back, watch your 6.

I would point out that these rifles do not have to be big heavy barreled pieces . In fact the vast majority were not . It all depends on the type of rifle and match one was shooting in .

While I would agree that the modern rifles do not hold a candle in accuracy , if there is an advantage or not , depends on the rules .
If those rules hold to a common ground then , no , no advantage . But the minute we start accepting . High value telescopic scopes , , smokeless powders , closed ignitions , jacketed bullets , core locks ,���..
Well frankly that�s where we will have to part company .
its simply IMO ,undisputable . If one is looking for accuracy . Be it for hunting or long range , its not going to be found in the modern movement.
But anyway , here are some more photos to add to what dan was saying ..













[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/match%20guns/stutzer2.png[/img]


[img]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/captchee/match%20guns/DSC00123.jpg[/img]



also if you think that running a patch down the bore of your smokeless gun is cleaning ,, well then ya its faster then Black powder .
but thats not cleaning and you know it .
again BP rifles ARE NOT in the realm of Ronco's set it and forget it . if thats what you want then ha go with a smokeless , muzzle loading rifle or buy a conversion . either way its the same thing . you doing nothing but adapting a breech loading rifle design to muzzle loading .

Thank you.

Finally, something other than blah blah. I agree that the high horse righteous stuff gets real old.

For me, I hate stick bows because they hate me. Why? I just cannot shoot them. In my hands, I become an unethical hunter unless my shots are under 5 yards. I have a lot of respect for those of you who can and I have had the opportunity to shoot alongside a few of you. Good for all of you, you can hunt in my woods any day.



That's what is is all about for you. Have fun and enjoy it. The "muzzleloader" season has evolved in many areas and I welcome it. Take your "legal" weapon of choice out and enjoy it, whatever it is.