Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Pointer vs. Lab?

I have only had labs for gun dogs. Right now Im in the market for a new dog. Its been two years since my old boy died. I have never hunted with a pointer. My real isuue is- are they good water dogs? I hunt spruce hens, ptarmigan, duck, ect. I need a dog thats versitle. Im looking at Griffon pointers right now. Anybody own one? Are pointers good swimmers?

I started my hunting life behind some of the early Griffons in the USA. They are the most versatile dog there is, IMO. They are great water dogs; they have an undercoat for warmth and webbed toes for swimming. They are almost fearless dogs, too. The breed was developed to be the ultimate everything dog, and they come very close.




There is also the option of a pointing lab now.

My GSP swims like a fish, and water retrieves, but when the water gets too cold I won't take him along. The swimming is just a bonus with me, as I hunt upland way more than WF.
A friend runs GWPG's and they are hunting machines. His big male will bust ice, and is a powerful swimmer. Great upland dogs too, prey drive is unending.

Can't say anything bad about well-bred Griffons. BuT Labs were my first love.
(I hope Duchess the Wonder Dog doesn't read this.)

You had better hope!

She'll pout the rest of her life...in your presence...

Her grandmother used to help me post here, BTW.

She was on the back of the couch with her head over my shoulder as I typed, but I think she was asleep. No harm no foul.

My GSP is fearless and swims in any weather/temp. He got his first taste of water chasing around a 2 year old lab so he was well trained in the water.

A couple years back he went out on the ice and went into the water after a couple pintails on one of my dad's ponds. It was 17F and snowing. As I called him off he flat out ignored me, typical of pointers, and jumped in. I figured the hike was over and we would be heading back to the house, but he climbed out, shook off and didn't seem too bothered by the whole event.

Not approved behavior by me by any stretch of the imagination, but he seemed fine in the cold weather. He didn't move away from the fire after we returned that night but I didn't blame him!

I love both labs and pointers and all dogs, so I may be of no help here....

Some good advice guys. I've owned labs and love them but I am ready to give something else a try. Im a little concerned because nobody up here has a pointer. There are only two breeders up here that I can find. I may be trecking down to the lower 48 for a new dog. I am going to be heading down to central/northern California for two weeks in Feb. Anybody know a good German short hair/Griffon/wirehaired pointer breeder in California?

I'm a die-hard GSP fan but if I lived in Central Alaska, I'd probably look for a dog that was better suited to very cold weather. Griffon's are definitely a smart choice but whichever breed you choose, do yourself a favor and make sure you get one that's well-bred. That way you'll know you're working with a dog that has everything the breed has to offer.....and post lots of pics!!

Have you considered a pointing Lab?

I hunt here in the PNW, saltwater estuaries, large bays , rivers and impoundments. I ran an AWS for many years and ended up with a GWHP, a hunting machine, a scent of bird is like a dose of speed. He love hunting ducks, he can tell the difference between a duck and a seagull when they are just a speck on the horizon, if it's a duck he stares and quivers in antisipation, a seagul or cormorant he give it a glance and keeps looking for ducks. He's not as fast a swimmer as my AWS but she was like a seal. He won't give up on a diving cripple and has learned to watch for them to come again and if he is close enough will dive after them. Sometimes I think he likes duck hunting more than upland , he doen't have to find them, they come to him.

I'm not a lab guy but hate to see a breed get messed with. If you hunt waterfowel, get a lab. If you hunt upland, get some kind of pointer. Don't crap up a nice working dog by breeding "tweeners". If they're an actual breed now, I stand corrected and take that back....FWIW.

I always love seeing that pic!

I understand GWHP (wirehaired pointer) whats AWS and PNW? Forgive my lack of gundog abbreviations...

PNW- Pacific North West.

AWS- American Water Spaniel an old time market hunting retriever that excelled as a upland flushing dog. In the days of small skiffs and canoes they were very popular. If the Chessy was the retriever of the east coast the AWS was king of the upper midwest. It is the Wisconsin State Dog.

You got it right.

Well sorta. If you hunt waterfowl get a Chessie!

I have hunted over a few AWS that were fantastic dogs.

Rememeber all the well breed dogs are going to be good dogs no matter the breed. Its the training that makes or breaks a dog.

I have hunted over dogs that came from some of the best and most respected breeders, only to either been ruined by bad training or lack of training. Your not teaching the dog to do what its genetics were designed for, your refining it to do it for you!

In the abstract I could agree, but there are way too many good pointing Labs out there to think the concept doesn't work.

The concept doesn't work. First they can't run with other pointing breeds as far as stamina. Second they were not built to run like that, and to make them do so is irresponsiable.

Creek Hunter,

I agree in part. Still, the hunter and type of hunting can determine whether the pointing lab is the right fit.

I know now that I have slowed down a lot and climb less and slower to a point that a less rangy dog is better for me. The staedy-Freddy type of dog is now my fit. These setters about kill me when they get red hot with chuckar scent in the next county.

It would be awfully hard on a dog that isn't bred for range to be pushed on out a lot, as it isn't right to use a dog that can't tolerate much cold as a duck dog up north. Traditional labs are excellent meat-getters in heavy cover hunting, and I think they would be a real joy if they also pointed.

So, we agree really.

Not really but we can agree to disagree. Labs are not natural Pointers. Technically speaking you can train any dog to point.

Also when I say they can't run with other pointers, I am not really talking about a leggy dog that runs big. They can't run with close working dogs. Sorta like me, I am never running a Marathon at 6'4" 265lb. Could I? Sure but why beat up my body when I don't have the body type for that kind of thing.

The biggest part of bird hunting to me is watching a well trained dog work cover and birds. Watching a Pointing lap work to me is like watching a Soap Opera. I AIN'T DOING IT!

If I break it down, I would say the dog would be used 70% waterfowl and 30% upland. I have toyed with idea of finding a chesapeak but I have this haunting memory of my old neighbor in Kodiak. He had one that would always get in our trash. He said "I call them 2x4 dogs. They are so stupid you need to beat em' with a 2x4. Plus the F****** wont hunt". Naturaly this guy was a real peice of trash but that dog was the Forest Gump of dogs. Thats really my only experience with them. I think Im leaning Long haired pointer right now. If I can find one. If I was looking for a sled dog I could be choosing from 500 within a day. Options are limited. Its a waiting game now...

Freezerfiller

I can tell you right now 100% that if you buy a chessie from a reputable breeder of huinting dogs and properly train he or she you will love the breed. They are hearty, hardworking, loyal, love to hunt, and depended on how you socialize them great with other people, kids, and dogs. Don't buy into the the BS of the Chessie's of long ago (Market Hunters). Like any other breed when you get a puppy its genes are already in place, now its up to you on how you will allow your dog to act, and how well or bad it will hunt.

You can't blame your neighbors dog behavior on the dog, its the owner that failed in that equation.

You are simply wrong. Pointing Lab owners aren't looking to send their dogs to the Grand National. There's really no difference in hunting a Lab as a flusher or a pointer except for what the dog does when he scents a bird.

Lab is probably your best bet then.
What does your upland hunting look like? Prairie or thick stuff?
Can you see your dog if he is 60-100 yards away from you?
I love hunting pointing dogs, but a good close working lab is magic in heavy cover.

Personally I think if your mix is 70/30 waterfowl over upland I'd be looking at a retriever of some type and do some real training on upland, quartering and hupping(sitting and waitng for you on comand) otherwise you will get alot of out of range flushes especially on running birds like pheasant.

When you compromise you have to give up something, a retriever with out a tail will be slower and less agile in the water, most retrievers in the upland don't have the nose of of a spaniel or pointer. A number of times I helped retriever owners find cripples in the grass after the tide went out that their retrievers couldn't find. Widgeon will swim with just the tip of there bill out of the water if it's glass calm you can see the V if there is the slightest ripple they are invisible. After tide is out you will find them burried in the grass or hidden in a little tidal drain.

When you go for a do all dog you have to give up on something. I have some cripples out swim my pointer, rarly happend with a retriever when we beach hunt(no boat), used to hunt bluebills on Lake Michigan from beach blinds with a big yellow lab, out here with an AWS. In the upland with a retriever you give up nose and bird finding abillity.

As toltecgriz said a pointing lab will "never get to the nationals" and will never be the upland dog like a spaniel or pointer. Jack Of All Trades, Master Of None.

Freezerfiller,

My first 'hunting' dog was a German Shorthaired Pointer. I raised him from a pup, and wanted a dog that would do double duty on upland birds and waterfowl. He was very indifferent about water work and retrieving, but I finally got him to do it with force retrieving training.

One day, I was hunting with a buddy, weather was cold, and we jumped some ducks off of the North Platte River in Wyoming. We shot two, and I sent the GSP to retrieve. He swam out, retrieved the first, and I sent him for the second. He picked it up, swam to the opposite bank, and proceeded to eat it!! I was sorely tempted to shoot him right there, I was so mad. Once home, I put a Free to Good Home ad in the paper and found a new home for him.

Fast forward to the past 14 years- I had the good fortune to raise a pointing Lab from a pup- her sire was Gumbo, one of the alltime great PL's. On many occasions, we would duck hunt in the morning, and pheasant hunt in the afternoon. Her points were solid, and great fun to hunt over. Her desire to hunt was incredibly strong.

If you are looking for a versatile dog, it would be very hard to beat a Lab.

The two labs I have had I got when I was still very young. I am 32 now and I got my last lab when I was 20. I am ready to put the work in now. There is a lot more to training a good gun dog than I realized when I was younger. By the time I started researching it my dogs were to old to be tought new styles of hunting. My Dad who lives down in Soldotna, Ak. Hunts with a chesapeak so I know they are good dogs. Its just one of those things. Like when you get really sick from Vodka you never want it again. Thats my experience with Chesapeaks. Im not meaning to offend anyone who loves them.

A few posts back a guy asked me if the area is thick or prarie? It is very thick and the upland birds we hunt are spruce grouse and willow ptarmigan. Both tend to inhabit the thickets where your range of view is almost always under 50yards.Neither of these birds are runners. They will stay in place until you are very close before flushing. I could never get my labs to stay without flushing them up until I was close enough. There has been 500 times I have missed birds because my dogs wouldnt hang back when they picked up a scent. Thats my real case for needing a pointer. Where we duck/goose hunt is usually on rivers with a fairly swift current.

Side note- Both my labs had hip dysplasia. I put one down about a year ago and thee other is hanging by a thread. It devistaed my wife and 5yo daughter. She loves our dogs but doesnt want another lab because of the hip problems. I have her convinced that pointers dont have those problems. Even though I know some do.

Sounds like your pretty set on a pointing dog, now it's time to start looking for a breeder that has alot of experience with water work. I'd stick with heavy coated wirehairs or grifs. A pointing lab might just work for you. You don't need a big running dog and your birds hold well in heavy cover.

labs4rescue.com enough said!

Good grief, a rescue dog is the last thing you need if you're looking for a quality hunting dog. There is absolutely nothing that a pointing lab can accomplish in the field that a flushing lab won't. Why continue to screw up the breed by perpetuating the practice of breeding them to point. Get a lab or a chessie (70-30 waterfowl makes the choice easy) from a good breeder and try to get a pup from a repeat breeding that has produced some pups that are now MH or hold field trial titles. Call as many breeders as you can find on the internet and then call some more, tell them what you want/expect of the dog. You will come away with a few that are at the top of the heap, go with the one that produces pups that have the look that you like. Lot of time and phone calls, but it will pay big when you get a pup that is exactly what you want/need.

It is hard for me to imagine someone seriously duckhunting SC AK and getting a 70/30 split. Our duck seaon starts Sept 1 and ends with the first storm, often no more than a couple weeks later. There are spots and saltwater to hunt a good deal later, but the extra effort reqired over chasing grouse for a day is excessive, IMO&E.

The grouse season starts Aug 1 in many areas and rus through the winter and well into spring.

Te PL is looking very good to me right now and anyone that fails to see how well they would work has never seen other "versatile" dogs struggling in saltwater ice, and big river flats.

Deep winter is trappin season. Im not out chasin grouse.

Given your mix of 70/30 I would suggest you stay with a Lab, or any breed of retriever you choose, and stay away from pointing dogs. I have owned English pointers and Labs and Goldens for the last thirty five years or so. Labs and Goldens are great hunters and great family dogs. English pointers, and most other pointing breeds I have hunted over, are not good family dogs. They are much more time consuming to train properly and need more work to be happy, if that is what they are when they are hunting. As you already know Labs are glad to be anywhere. So are Goldens. There is a reason Labs are the most popular breed of hunting dog.

I agree 100%

Pointing labs are a "new" solution to a problem that was worked out by about 30 breeds in Europe over 100 years ago. The European versatile breeds were developed to point upland birds, retrieve furred and feathered game on land and water, track furred and feathered game on land and water, and even to hunt big game. Unless a hunter is commited to Labs or nothing, I see no reason for the pointing lab to exist other than marketing!

I have hunted with labs and love them, but they are specialized retrieving dogs that are really at their best only on waterfowl. I have hunted spruce hens ptarmigan and many other upland birds with European versatile pointing dogs with complete satisfaction. If you have never hunted with a pointer be prepared for a very different experience compared to a flushing/ retrieving dog!

I have hunted over good lines of Large Munsterlanders, Britannys, Weimaraners, GSP's, Drathaars, GWPs, and have seen many more breeds such as Griffons perform in hunt tests. I would take a versatile breed every time for upland work over a Lab. Most will do good service in the water too. I hunt about 50/50 waterfowl and upland, and Saskatchewan waterfowl hunting is an intense workout for any dog. I currently hunt with Pudelpointers.

I've hunted ptarmigan with retrievers, spaniels and pointers/setters. Even though any of the three will work for me I would rather hunt ptarmigan with a spaniel or pointer/setter. I really enjoy watching a dog work in their area of expertise. I agree with C&B's comment regarding pointers.

Well put.

I've never seen a Pudelpointer in action......how about some action shots??

I know three of them...

I agree for the most part but, if at all possible, go watch them in action. I run the dog wagon at field trials here in NE each Spring/Fall and get to put my hands on a lot of dogs. I watch how they react to me, other dogs, how they cast off and finish and if there's one I'm interested in, I ride in the gallery and watch them in the field. Titles are a good indicator of ability but nothing beats watching them in action.

[/quote]I've never seen a Pudelpointer in action......how about some action shots?? [/quote]

since you asked
retrieving beavers ( lab following)

hunting sharptails

and ptarmigan

and ducks

and geese

and huns at -30�

and ruffed grouse
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p287/longwalker_photos/IMGP2935.jpg[/img]
and lots of other stuff
[img]http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p287/longwalker_photos/IMG_3553.jpg[/img]

Those are some great action shots!! I know I'll always have a GSP but if I ever branched out, those Pudel pointer's would sure be high on the list.....what a great all-around dog.

How are they around the house and with kids??

Excellent with kids, good around the house when they mature past the puppy stage!

Im sold that that is a solid dog. But what the hell is a puddlepointer?

You are doing mostly waterfowl, get a Labrador. They are the most versatile dog. And they have dominated the retriever field trials for over 50 years.

"what the hell is a puddlepointer?"
It is a German word, and pronounced POODlepointer not "puddle"..
- from the website of the breeder that I got the Pudelpointer in the photos from,
Cedarwoods:
Pudelpointer has a short, rough waterproof jacket with it's camouflage coloring and other qualities enabling the dogs to figure prominently in today's NAVHDA utility tests. Still, today in Germany the breed cannot achieve stud book status until the dog has passed demanding ability and utility testing. The dog must also pass a hip radiograph exam, as well as have a conformation rating. Today's Pudelpointers in North America have breeding restrictions very similar to those in Germany. North American Pudelpointers are registered with either American Field or NAVHDA. Hopefully the breed will never be registered with AKC and this breed will never be seen in an AKC show ring; breeding dogs for show quality has been the downfall for many sporting breeds as the show fanciers have little or no knowledge of hunting instincts necessary to maintain a breed such as the Pudelpointer for the hunting public.

What is a Pudelpointer?

The Pudelpointer is a medium sized dog with a height of 22-25 inches at the shoulder and weighing anywhere form 45 to 70 pounds. The color is usually a variant of liver; white markings on the chest and paws are permitted.

The ideal Pudelpointer coat is harsh, wirey and dense but all kinds of variations are possible. Some specimens are almost smooth coated and others have a rather long and woolly coat, but all Pudelpointers should have pronounced eyebrows and whiskered muzzles. The tail is docked leaving approximately two-thirds of its original length.

By nature the dog is friendly, inquisitive, eager to please, with a dash that makes it a pleasure to work with in the field and a cooperative attitude that also makes it a pleasure in the home.

Grea info! Thanks. The critters look like a Griffon/Gsp/Lab mix. They sure are pretty. I imagine they are not easy to find though.

I also feel I need to ad- Man, its sure looks like you know how to get on the birds!

I don't bad mouth a mans dog or his shotgun, I dont care if he shoots the ugliest Mossburg ever built. I'm a english pointer person my self, but I would have to say for an all around dog the Lab would be the best.

castnblast - That is a gorgeous dog! One of the few pointers that REALLY interest me. He looks like he can hang regardless of temperature or game being hunted.

I had a similar dilemma 4 years ago. I ended up with a drahthaar. They hunt longer, harder and there are no draw backs aside from that missing lab personality. My draht has stamina that is simply amazing, takes the cold well and points like a clock.....truly a perfect dog......as long as they are not stuck in a small yard all day.

I hunt seaducks/ducks and grouse and woodcock. I use both a field bred lab and a German bred DK. They both work! The DK are tested in order to be bred and are wonderful! My lab is an absolute machine. Field bred labs can run with the best of them.

I actually have both a pudelpointer and a drahthaar, my drahthaar hunted from birth....here is a pic series at about 3 months old. I am not a dog trainer, just a hunter.....and our grouse are not big....she is just a pup here.






A bit farther into the season she really began to develop. She has never hunted planted birds and has always produced for me.....



This quail fell dead in some bad nasty thicket that my FIL's English pointer and setter would not go into. I walked Cali down wind of it and sent her in.....minutes later, here is the spoils....


I killed a limit of chukar over her only once so far....more due to my fear of dying than her lack of hunt. This hunt was about -15 and the birds were holding pretty tight. Sorry, no field pics as my camera batts were zonked by the cold.



I don't have any field pics of our pudelpointer. She was a rescue and hunting her is rough on me after having a push button dog like Cali.



I just learned that I need to take more field pics. When buck, my black lab, passed I assumed I would never again have such a great dog. Buck was able to telepathically do what I wanted, it was glorious. Cali, my drahthaar, she does not do what I think all the time, and at first, I was dissapointed.....I learned that I need to let her hunt and follow her, for I am right 60% of the time and she I right 99% of the time. She does not have the clingy lovey side my lab did, in fact for the first 4 years of her life, I am not sure she even liked me. She just slept on a bed in a corner and ate....then disappeared into our 5 acres of grass fields all day. Now she has become a bit more of a lap dog. Our pudelpointer is every bit as needy as a lab, but again, she is a rescue.

Fwiw, both are beyond tollerant.

[img]http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z16/gyonemura/440a06432d1b03854ebadf5ad4d4329e.jpg[/img]

Awesome!

Don't uderestimate a field bred lab! This girl will never quit and never refuse an entry even in worst conditions!Jump off the boat into 3 foot swells in the salt without thinking.

She will run hard all day long attacking cover until she wears the hair off her shoulders. Crapped in the house 2 times, total, as a pup and had run of the house at a year. Scary smart.

Great thread guys!!
While I am not as against a Pointing Lab as some of you seem to be, I have always thought the Griffon's were worth looking into and the Pudelpointer's I have not even heard of before.

Personally my last dog a black lab, was good at flushing in the dense area's of northern MI and great at retrieving anything he was sent after. I certainly would not classify him as a great upland hunter but I do not consider myself that either!!
I was happy to have spent the 12 years with him and would do it again in a heart beat.

Mark

The level of snobbery and tunnel vision in this thread boggles the mind!
Pointing labs work if they are trained properly, I owned two before I was told i should be doing that .

retrievers running big? They generally cant do that , but in many areas a big running pointer is no good either.
Rescue dogs? I've seen some GREAT Brits and labs that were rescue dogs.
I've been critisized because my son and Ii hunt rabbits with Louie the GSP, so wha? he does a good job, blocks them well, and can still point a ruffed grouse or pheasant at the same time.

"messing with a breed"? How does one think our modern day dogs came about , they certainly didn't just happen, people bred certain breeds together.
I know a guy who hunts birds with a Welsh border collie, and a friend of mine used to have a buddy who hunted over an English bulldog for pheasants.
We even take out the little cavalier Spaniel for ruffies and chukars at times.
Who gives a rat's azz as long as all are having fun, nobody or dog gets hurt?

I've seen lots of good dogs that were not bred for what they were doing , but everybody as happy with them.
Cat

I do - and the reason I do is because your shoot-from-the-hip/anything-goes mentality DOES hurt a lot of dogs. You don't have to be a "snob" or have "tunnel vision" to know that bad breeding causes all sorts of problems and can ruin a fine breed in short order. Examples are everywhere - Dalmatians, Irish Setters, Cocker Spaniels, Golden Retrievers, etc. are just some of the breeds that have taken a beating due to irresponsible breeding - and that's what you get with most backyard breeders. Those breeds have been seriously harmed because people focused more on appearance than on the breed's overall standards and what you got was great looking dogs with a whole slew of issues - deafness, hip dysplasia, seizures, bad temperaments, etc. Breeding Labs based on their "pointing" instinct is the same kind of focused breeding - just based on a particular behavior instead of a particular appearance and is much more likely to be a victim of "tunnel vision".

I seriously doubt that most "breeders" today would hold a candle (in terms of knowledge, standards, discipline, etc.) to the old school European breeders whom developed the standard sporting breeds we know and love today. Of course, if an English Bulldog would pass as a good bird dog to you - your mileage DEFINITELY varies......

Well said!

There are a lot of people who m take their pets out hunting , and as far as my " shoot from the hip" attitude goes, it sounds to me that unlessa person is running a pure bred dog , you are turning up your nose at them.
I hunt with bred GSP, and so do some friends of mine,BTW but some also hunt with labs and do just as well in the uplands.

I also hunt with the Cavalier however, and it's a lot of fun, although we don't put the birds up as much, but the dog has fun and so do I .
Is there a problem with that?
I don't care if a person was running a bull dog, I wouldn't hunt with one , mind you, but some do.
I've seen a lot of rescues from the SPCA that were papered and were good dogs.
I suppose next you are going to tell me I need to hunt with a SXS or an O/U or I'm not hunting "properly" ?
So how did your pure bred dogs come into being , anyway? Divine intervention?
Cat

Pure bred dogs didn't come to be from haphazard couplings of dogs, nor from allowing "pet" breeding. They came from dedicated breeding for a given set of characteristics. When those who were breeding for a solid hunting line got a pup or two or three that wouldn't hunt they killed it/them. I wouldn't have any problem at all with pointing labs if they had to be registered seperate from a traditional lab. Breeding for a characteristic that many of us feel is non-desireable in labs and then registering them all in the same breed creates problems, no different than those who would breed simply for color or conformation and neglect the natural abilities that make the breed what it is. As to good rescue dogs, the training process is very important and it begins when a dog is a young pup. Why would anyone want a dog that is over a year old that likely has no training at all and in many cases is traumatized in some way. You're stuck with the beast for a decade or so, up your odds as much as possible by thorough research and buying the absolute best you can afford. If all you want is a pet, then by all means, get a rescue dog and enjoy. If it turns out that it can hunt a little, so much better!

That pretty much sums it up!

As far as me personally (good, bad, or indifferent).....

I love GSPs but knew nothing about breeding/standards when I got started and acquired my first three dogs from other people. I was like most others and just wanted a good "hunting dog" when I got my first one. Sadie was probably the best dog I will ever have the pleasure of spending time with and caused me to fall in love with the GSP breed. I have her ashes downstairs and fully intend on having her buried with me when it's my time. She was a great hunter and more human than most people IME. That being said, we didn't breed her because she had a genetic defect (elongated pupil) from line-breeding.

My wife picked out the second one (backyard breeder) and while Carli was an awesome family dog with good hunting instincts and an INSANE retrieving instinct - she was very sensitive and naturally gun-shy early on (trained her out of it) so we didn't breed her either.

I purchased our 3rd GSP, Roxy (in my avatar), from a member on this board and she was a hunting machine w/ all the qualities (physical/mental/social) I was looking for in a breeding bitch. Deciding to have her bred was just 1/2 the equation though. The other 1/2 was finding a suitable stud which I touched on in one of my first posts above (worked trials spring/fall for three years!). I ended up going with a 7xCH 4xRU / 2xNGDC FC AFC named Slicks Cuttin Wild - "Joker". The titles are nice but what was more important to me was that I was breeding to a dog I knew had solid lines and that I knew was great all-around from watching him in action on multiple occasions. I could've bred to a GSP with great credentials right here in my backyard, but, when it was time, I drove 8 hours each way (from NE to WY) in order to make sure I had the exact breeding I wanted which cost 3 days of vacation, gas, food, hotels and a $750 stud fee. All well spent because I feel I did my part to better the breed with our seven pups. The one we kept (Ruby) shows a lot of promise but only time will tell if she makes the final cut for breeding.

I'm not afraid to fix a dog and end up with a great hunting buddy that doesn't meet the standard. That wouldn't take away from my enjoyment one bit but not doing so would take away from the breed and that would be VERY bad mojo IMO.

FWIW - I was so impressed with castnblast's Pudelpointer, I did some reseach and found a tidbit on Wikipedia which I'll share because I thought it was a very interesting. It's a good snapshot into how a great breed was actually developed and recent enough that we actually have a pretty specific record.

Here's the actual quote from Wikipedia:


As Ranger1 stated, you can bet your butt there was one heckuva lot of dogs culled outta those litters over the course of 30 years. Sad but true and an absolute requirement (at least fixing) if you really want to develop a new breed or better an existing breed instead of just watering one down....

If everything works out, in addition to a great hunting dog we'd like to have a dog that also knows how to play poker. Right now, the best we've done is UNO.....we have a LOT of work to do!!