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#7272963 - 01/06/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: bigblock455]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
Who is this Wakeman you keep talking about?
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#7272985 - 01/06/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Swampman700]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2778
you fondle this guy and dont even know his name? Gosh, like a government official visiting a columbian whore house.
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#7273112 - 01/06/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: bigblock455]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
Changing the subject doesn't change the fact.
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#7273697 - 01/06/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Swampman700]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Randy Wakeman. Your boss.
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Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#7273869 - 01/06/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Swampman700]
Oldelkhunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 09/28/04
Posts: 9138
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Swampman700
I'm wondering if all the metal parts are MIM?


Ask remington the sear,cocking piece and bolt shroud are all MIM...don't that make you feel downright secure?. grin You don't want to discuss metallurgy with me I will run circles around you.
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Dec 17, 2009 Michelle Obama... "we are going to have to make sacrifices; we are going to have to change our conversation; we're going to have to change our traditions, our history; we're going to have to move into a different place as a nation."

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#7273874 - 01/06/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
Oldelkhunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 09/28/04
Posts: 9138
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Mauser_Hunter
Randy Wakeman. Your boss. lover


fixed it for you
_________________________
Dec 17, 2009 Michelle Obama... "we are going to have to make sacrifices; we are going to have to change our conversation; we're going to have to change our traditions, our history; we're going to have to move into a different place as a nation."

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#7273880 - 01/06/13 Swampman is Indian for Lying Son of a Bitch [Re: Swampman700]
Oldelkhunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 09/28/04
Posts: 9138
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Swampman700
Originally Posted By: Oldelkhunter
the company he loves has settled lawsuits one after another with their trigger issues which took 40 years to re-design to prevent the failures.


Completely untrue.....on both counts. They've never payed out a dime and the new trigger had nothing to do with the bogus lawsuits. Remington can't control poor gun safety. The guns worked as designed. They didn't blow up and injure people.


Prove otherwise..all their stuff was settled out of court and you damn know it . Liar
_________________________
Dec 17, 2009 Michelle Obama... "we are going to have to make sacrifices; we are going to have to change our conversation; we're going to have to change our traditions, our history; we're going to have to move into a different place as a nation."

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#7275600 - 01/06/13 Re: Swampman is Indian for Lying Son of a Bitch [Re: Oldelkhunter]
captchee Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1624
Loc: Idaho
CVA doesnít own anything , they are and have always been an importer/ retailer .
They donít and never have made their own guns .
Well let me take that back and say that statement concerns CVA as most people to include IMO swampman know Connecticut Valley Arms as .
The fact is that there have been many companies that went by Connecticut Valley Arms dating back to the mid 19th century . Those companies were not importers . That being said by the mid to late 19th century a very large % of the guns made by gunsmiths back then , did not carry hand forged barrels . Barrels were being imported in blanks from places like France, Spain and England ..
In fact even as late as the 1940s , Remington was recalling low 6 number lots of their O3A3 for barrel failures not trigger issues

But lets take a look at swampmans link to wakemans lawsuit page .
At first glance a person is kinda taken back . But take a second and read the names . Now maybe my count is off but I see 10 different names filing multiple lawsuits .
Now surly if we consider the shear numbers of Jukar and Adesa guns sold , if there was a real great issue , that page would be a whole web site with hundreds of pages .
So why isnít it ?
Now take a another couple seconds and do a Google for lawsuits against Connecticut Valley Arms . What you see is this same group of lawsuits talked about over and over again .
Now replace that search with lawsuits against Remington arms.
Kinda funny how no one really is complaining that Remington has paid millions to keep it records sealed .
But lets be fair here . I would seriously doubt that there is any gun manufacture that doesnít have lawsuits against them . So if we are to make snap judgments and statements against one company , should we not hold all the companies to the same standards ?
I say yes

as to CVA barrels being soft ????
not sure i would agree with that .
i have engraved many of them through the years and cutting a CVA barrel is very much like cutting a Remington or colt barrel . both are very hard and your gravers have to be kept sharp.
What ever steel they use , it isnít to mill or engraver friendly

myself i would rather cut on a Colerian , Getz or Rice barrel.
Don Getz also makes no qualms about his choice of barrel steel . Which by the way is said by some to be un suitable for even muzzle loading barrels.
Yet I know of no lawsuits against Don .
Yet at the same time the reason Douglas barrels closed up was because of lawsuits . Yet even today many folks near cream their pants with desire when a Douglas barrel comes up on flee bay .
HOWEVER , no mater how you cut it , the consumer makes the final decision. The simple fact is that CVA has been around this long because they have sales . If the consumer finds the product to be lacking then the company doesnít have sales and they go under .
If the product is good enough , then someone will buy out the rights and continue production . If its not then the gun will not come back on the market for manufacture .
So despite all the hype against CVA , apparently enough consumers are happy with what they buy that the company has continued , despite all its ups and downs.


BillG
Im glad CVA is working with you on your barrel .
In my experience , there are many things that can cause what you are experiencing .
The human sense of feel can find changes to a very high degree . So It could simply be that if your gun is used , the former owner may have left it loaded . Thus the powder charge may have corroded the surface just enough you feel it.
I have an old Sharon barrel out in the shop that when I push a patch down the bore , it feels loose at around 3 inches from the breech . I know what caused it as the barrel had an old load in it that I pushed out .
the more looks fine . but when i run a gaged down it , the breech area is .003 greater then the main bore . that bothered me . so i cut it off and have never re tapped the barrel for a breech


Another reason could be tolerances .
Take TC . They allow .010 variance in the bore . thatís why sometimes brand X projectile works better then brand Z . the bores are just not all the same size .

Have you ever read of a match grade barrel . Well what do you think makes them different then a standard barrel .
So the case may be . I say maybe because I have not seen your barrel first hand .
But the case maybe that your barrel is just enough out in that area , that it was still within tolerances but close enough to being out of tolerances that you feel it .
So most likely CVA will just drop in a new barrel and send it back to you . But its really hard to say because if the above is the case , they may just tell you that the barrel meets specs


Edited by captchee (01/06/13)
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#7275690 - 01/06/13 Re: Swampman is Indian for Lying Son of a Bitch [Re: captchee]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
If i'm not mistaken Cap. CVA used Douglas barrels on one of their sidelocks.
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Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#7275736 - 01/06/13 Re: Swampman is Indian for Lying Son of a Bitch [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2778
yep the cva mountain rifles in the early years used douglas.

TC used sharron? barrels and they had to stop in a hurry due to some explosion issues with those barrels.
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#7276121 - 01/06/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: bigblock455]
doctor_Encore Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 4808
Loc: west of the Chesapeake Bay
Originally Posted By: bigblock455
you fondle this guy and dont even know his name? Gosh, like a government official visiting a columbian whore house.


Bigblock,

Swampy knows who he is.

Doc

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#7277635 - 01/07/13 Re: Swampman is Indian for Lying Son of a Bitch [Re: captchee]
billg Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/04/02
Posts: 491
Loc: Alabama
Cap'n--Thanks for the input--I'm not familiar with you, but after seeing your handiwork on the sqirrel rifle-I would bet you know what you're talking about. When you say TC has a tolerance of .010 in their barrels--I would assume you mean from barrel to barrel and not within the same barrel. Also, my situation was a little more than a feeling, I could also hear the problem. The bullet would start getting loose at the same spot in my barrel every time, once I got there I would slow the ram rod down significantly and could hear/feel the bullet let go of the inside of the barrel and hear it hit the breech plug--after the free-fall. I also pushed the bullet in from the breech to see how far it would go up the barrel before it wedged--the point was identical to the release point coming down.Bottom line, I have zero confidence that I could ever get a good firm, repeatable, safe seating on the powder.I could probably make it work with a PB since the plastic skirt makes it more forgiving of in-barrel variances, but I'm not interested in doing that. At any rate, you've forgotten more than I'll ever know about ML's and I appreciate your comments.--Bill
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#7278152 - 01/07/13 Re: Swampman is Indian for Lying Son of a Bitch [Re: billg]
captchee Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1624
Loc: Idaho

i dont know about Sharon and TC . but yes some early CVA mountain rifles used Douglas and others .
However in recent years , there has been some debate as to if CVA ever used Douglas, as the paper work from what I have read isnít there showing it.
But again CVA was an importer/ retailer so they have always had someone else assemble the rifles or box their kits .

As I understand it , the problem was pretty much industry wide back then . Extruding was simply how barrel blanks were formed . Now they are drawn which makes for a much better and stronger barrel .

Yes Bill that would be .010 plus or minus ,between bores not within a bore .
I donít know what TC standard is for internal bore tolerances .

But
Like you , I have never cared for barrels that had lose spots or tight spots , if thatís the way the stick floats/ one wants to look at it . But again those areas can happen from many diffrent things
Doc White talked about rifle bore restriction some . he even as i recall calimed that having a bore tighter at the muzzle end , made for a more accurate barrel.
Im not saying thats what you have. . Regardless of the reasoning, if your uncomfortable with the situation then it should be inspected and fixed .



Edited by captchee (01/07/13)
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#7278289 - 01/07/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Oldelkhunter]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
The MIM process for barrel production is interesting. That must be how they sell them so cheap. Of course the fact the they receive money from the spainish government helps too. I googled this Wakeman guy and he is interesting. I'll have to read up on him. Thanks!
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#7278297 - 01/07/13 Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: bigblock455]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
Originally Posted By: bigblock455
yep the cva mountain rifles in the early years used douglas.

TC used sharron? barrels and they had to stop in a hurry due to some explosion issues with those barrels.


Great fiction, you should write some novels.....
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#7278333 - 01/07/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Swampman700]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Originally Posted By: Swampman700
Originally Posted By: bigblock455
yep the cva mountain rifles in the early years used douglas.

TC used sharron? barrels and they had to stop in a hurry due to some explosion issues with those barrels.


Great fiction, you should write some novels.....


Mykeal is much more knowledgeable than you'll ever be. 4th post.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=378346
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Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#7278338 - 01/07/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Swampman700]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2778
Hawken rifles were tight at the muzzle, almost like a funnel. Made loading hard, but they claimed it made the shots more accurate. Who knows for sure.
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www.FrontierMuzzleloading.com

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#7278382 - 01/07/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Swampman700]
bigblock455 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/24/07
Posts: 2778
swampy, your reloading room is lonely


Brings an all new meaning to the phrase, "Coming out of the closet"


Edited by bigblock455 (01/07/13)
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#7279092 - 01/07/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: bigblock455]
captchee Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1624
Loc: Idaho
Originally Posted By: bigblock455
Hawken rifles were tight at the muzzle, almost like a funnel. Made loading hard, but they claimed it made the shots more accurate. Who knows for sure.


i would say that if they were , it would have to have been late Hawkins rifles , produced under the Hawkins name after they sold the shop .
i say that because the rifling platform they had , seems to me to have been incapable of drawing cut rifling through a tapered bore .
It is often recorded that Hawkens rifles carried a tapered barrel . But thatís the profile of the outside not the bore
Now I could be wrong but the taper bore /squeeze bore didnít come about until the advent of forged rifling
Now I have heard of later bench rifles with a tapered bore but normally that was only .0001-2 at the muzzle area .

could you PM me with refrance to Hawkins rifles and the taperd bore big block . i would engoy reading about that

I would seriously doubt that Adesa is using a MIM process for barrel manufacturing .
If they were , their parts would have much higher tolerances. Which swampman , you are saying they donít
But again if we are to complain about what Adesa does , then why not complain about what S&W does ???
Or Remington for that mater .

The fact simply is that if you have a modern gun , that gun will most likely have MIM parts . doesnít mater the maker .
In fact many older guns have early MIM type parts .
I remember back in the early 80ís when many manufactures started selling injection cast parts .
Specifically breech plugs . OHHH how the cry went out about how unsafe they were .
Yet today , its not uncommon to find a very large selection of injection cast plugs .
This cry about MIM is IMO nothing more then the old cry about cast vs. forged parts
In fact I would seriously doubt that for those who buy complete finished replacement parts, you would know if the part was originally injected molded or not unless someone told you .

The difference you are talking about is that today MIM also includes binders vs. the old complete metal melt . Its also a completely different process thatís primarily used for making parts that would other wise have a very high production cost OR a lot of milling cost . Again production cost . Thatís where the MIM production comes in and frankly where it shines
Despite what you may think , barrel making is not such an area . Yes it takes time but whatís been the major cost is in the rifling of the barrel . But today as more and more barrel makers switch to the button rifling process , which now takes around 60 seconds to rifle a bore vs. cut rifling which even with modern machinery still takes around an hour . By hand , days .
I would bet that Adesa uses the button rifling process as its been accepted in Europe for some time, where we have held onto the cut rifling

I do think the day will come when modern MIM enters the rifle barrel market .
Some suggest that its already in the pistol barrel market ,. But frankly youíre the first I have heard suggest that someone is already using MIM to make rifle barrels.


Edited by captchee (01/07/13)
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#7279316 - 01/07/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Swampman700]
captchee Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/13/06
Posts: 1624
Loc: Idaho
Quote:
I googled this Wakeman guy and he is interesting. I'll have to read up on him. Thanks


LMAO seriously . you just gooled him did ya .
thats a new ploy since you been refering to him on near every post for years

Quote:
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=127161.15;wap2


Quote:
http://64.120.52.50/forums/index.php?topic=165580.45;wap2


here is a good one from back in 2010


and who can forget 2005


Edited by captchee (01/07/13)
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#7279662 - 01/07/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Swampman700]
FVA Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 08/19/02
Posts: 7322
Loc: NY
Originally Posted By: Swampman700
The MIM process for barrel production is interesting.


Where are you getting that?
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#7279915 - 01/07/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: FVA]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
Now I know who swamp is, and it all makes sense now.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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#7282719 - 01/08/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Mauser_Hunter]
Swampman700 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/14/08
Posts: 11207
Like I said Wakeman sems to know what he's talking about. I've been doing some reading of his sites today. I may give him a call. Public safety is important to all of us.
_________________________
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

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#7283159 - 01/08/13 Re: Spainish made stuff is junk [Re: Swampman700]
Mauser_Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/28/11
Posts: 4195
Loc: Colorado
I can show you an old post that Wakeman claims he's shot hundreds of Powerbelts, and liked them. Now he calls them junk.

He's a whore open to the highest bidder.
_________________________
Money can't buy you happiness, but it can buy you a hunting license and that's pretty close.

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