Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles WSSM's in an AR?

What's everyone think of the performance and reliability of the WSSM's in their AR. I see a number of manufacturers adding these to their lineups.

Anyone have personal experience with Accuracy Systems and their Leviathan line? Looks like they put a 223 rim on the WSSM. They have a 1/2" moa guarantee. Any other reccomended manufacturers?

Looking at the ballistic tables the 243 or 25 WSSM would be an awsome reach out and thump-em round. Flat shooting, semiauto, hopefully accurate and 1000+- lbs. at 500yds!!

Give me your 2 cents ad I may just add another bad (expensive) habbit!

TK

I have a 243 WSSM that was made for me by a guy in Minnesota. Here's a link for him: http://www.dtechsuperstore.com/WSSM%20page.htm While I haven't had any dealings with him besides buying the upper, he seems like a very good guy to do business with and, with little use yet, it runs great!

Here's the thread that gives an link to his site and some other info on my gun. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/634235/an/0/page/0#634235
I haven't handloaded for it yet but I'm delighted to find that all three factory loads shoot under an inch from .6 to .875. That shows me promise, if I want to get after it and more than adequacy if I don't.

There's lots of ways to go now with an AR that will give more range and versatility. Jeff Rost posted some info about a 6mm based on the 6.8 that White Oak Armory did up for him. That sounds like a nice set-up too. Here's a link to that thread. https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/692842/an/0/page/0#692842
Jeff has forgot more about AR's than most of us know. E4E too. Real experts and real gentlemen!

Good 6mm calibers are easy if you just do some homework and be ready to spend a few bucks.

The 25 in the WSSM needs to be set back into the case to run according to the guy who built mine. Even though I've always handloaded most everything, I just knew what my time was going to be like, so I opted for the 243 so I could get shooting it right away. He shoots a 243 identical to the one he built me. I figured that might be a good way to go since he can have any caliber and set up he wants. I'll put up some pics soon.

A 25 may be in some future plans if the start up company I've been spending my time on takes off like we hope it will. I figure I'll get my reloading figured out for the 243 and then think about the 25 since it must be reloaded. I'm not sure how seating factory a little deeper would work. I'd sure ask around before I'd do it. Pressure can be an ugly thing! ha ha!

Best wishes figuring out what's right for you.

Ricky

Be very careful about deep seating factory ammo. That could give a nasty surprise. It could be just fine but being that you can't start low and then work back up, it could be nasty.

I keep needing to take pics of the 6mm WOA round in a lineup and pic of the gun, yet time has not been nice lately.

And I'm itching to chrono the short tube to see how my guesses are holding up. They are shooting 107s out of the 6mm WOA and having trouble getting above 2700 or 2750 with it. But thats a lot of performance from a small case vs the probably 2900 or so you'd get from a Winny.

Bet your 243 WSSM is a cool critter getter too!! I keep falling back to what all my competition buddies play with, and that requires some barrel life so the WSSM rounds are mostly out for short tube life. But for hunting, how can one go wrong?? I'd love nothing more than to have a stable of one of every upper made for the AR. Have a good scope riser base and solid scope and just pick and play for hunting.

Jeff

I would like to see a WSSM case with a 30cal. bullet stuffed in it. This should give 308 performance out of a AR15 platform. There was a company that advertised in Shotgun News that said they could do a WSSM in 7m/m or 30 cal but repeated Emails to them got me nothing in return.

Jeff,
Thanks for the advice on seating factory ammo deeper. It didn't sound appealing to me in the least. There's some serious pressure there and a spike could ruin a guys day quick.

I haven't chroned my 243 WSSM yet either and am anxious to do so. But then I'm anxious to load for it too but the time just isn't there. Maybe in a few months.

I don't think I'd kick on 2700 out of your 6mm with a 107 if the accuracy is there. That should still be a pretty easy 300 yard antelope/deer round, I'd think. My barrel is 22" so I doubt I'll see 2900 but I'm gonna find out! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I got some factory stuff for the Beowulf to see how it runs too.

Barrel wear and tear, accuracy potential, component availability and capacity does make your 6/6.8 interesting. Maybe I'd better get what I have where I want it all and then start thinking about something else.....................naw!! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rick

Mike Milli (dtech) built a 25 wssm for me, yes to shoot the factory BST's you need to seat them .020 deeper in the case.
mine shot 3/8's during barrel break-in. It is an awesome whitetail rifle. The 115 gr BT's at 3000 fps just seem to mesh well togather with whitetail hunting.
Olympic arms has the 308 oly mag (300 wssm) on its agenda but when the assault weapons ban was lifted, they,ve been overwhelmed with demand for 223's so its been set aside for a bit till things calm down.
RR

Ridge runner,
I spoke with mike at Dtech about a 25wssm upper and he mentioned the deeper seating so i am leaning towards the 243 at this moment. I am not a hand loader so do you just tap them down 0.020" or press down? I would prefer a 25wssm over 243 if possible.
h

Its more than tapping or pressing. You will need to buy either a seating die for the 25 wssm and a cheap lee press. Or an arbor(plumbers) cheap press and a wilson arbor seater die. Then a dial indicator and set up the die to seat to the certain depth.

Since someone else is using them, the reseated factory must be safe in that gun, I'd still be uncomfortable till I knew it did nothing to my upper.

Jeff

Ridge Runner,

It sounds like you are getting great performance from that 25 upper Mike built for you. He said the 25's were easier to get to shoot good. If all you have to do is seat factory stuff .020 deeper, it sounds like he was right again. My AR will mostly get used for coyote and other varmints and I am pleased with the 243. It will see other uses too, where the laws allow. He needs to make a 5 shot clip for those states with capacity limits for magazines in big game seasons.

Did you get his muzzlebreak? I did, and the 243 WSSM stays on target through the shot with it. He said it would and it kinda amazed me. I'd be interested if it works as well on the 25.

Have you shot it much or handloaded for it yet? Let us know how it does.

Rick

I,ve prolly shot 150 rds through it during load developement and hunting. My hunting loads are all based around nosler ballistic tips in 100 and 115 gr. however this summer I wanna work with some 110 gr accubonds.
I've killed 6-7 deer with it and it really impresses me.
No i didn't get a brake, I also have an AR chambered in 458 socom and recoil isn't an issue, off all the deer I've shot with the 25 I've always saw bullet impact through the scope.
Rost, don't worry about the uppers, they can take way, way more pressure than what we're putting in them. Mike witnessed a destruction test on an AR once, nothing they could put in it would blow the action, until they loaded 26 gr of unique in a 223 case.
RR

Mine is a 22" fluted SUM w/ a 1 piece RRA mount and a Nikon Monarch 5.5x16.5. I've got maybe 150 rounds through my 25 including load developement. I like the 100 and 115 BT's with varget or IMR 4350. I will try 110 gr accubonds in the spring though.
No brake, I regularly shoot a 20" 458 socom (300 gr. hp @ 2200 fps) and can see bullet impacts on game and have saw bullet impact on the 6-7 deer I've shot with the 25. even the big bore AR's don't recoil much.
Rost, an AR will safely take way, way more pressure than we put in them, at OLY's plant mike witnessed a destructive test on a 223, they almost gave up trying to blow one up, as a last resort they fired a round with 26 gr of Unique in a 223, that did it, but it behaved like it was designed to, the bolt carrier gave way and the pressure was relieved out the magwell.

Hear ya on the pressure as I usually run 90s in a 20 inch tube at almost 2800 fps! But quirky things can happen from gun to gun. And reseating bullets deeper usually induces more pressure. As I can attest to having seen 2 lugs come off an AR bolt, its not always the high pressure round or two, but how many of them it might take to get it to fail. Noteably when shooting competition with the AR, I will fire between 4-20K rounds a year since about 91 off and on. So I've seen the results of pressures in the guns. They will constantly amaze you as to what they can handle.

BTW I'm curious on the socom. I run a 275 out of my 50 beowulf at just under 2200 fps. I was thinking the socom would be a quicker round-- may not be a bunch of difference. BTW more power to you on seeing impacts with the socom. I have shot a few animals and am no newbie to shooting, yet there is no way to see the impact of the 50 without a brake(maybe not even then), when using a scope.

And thanks for the chatter on the 25-- that could well be another addition to the stable in the future.

Jeff

Gee rost, my socom kicks about like a 243 bolt gun, I've taken at least 4 or 5 deer and a bear with it and have always noticed the bullet impact, when ya swat them that hard, they do take notice.
It may well do better but I'm shooting cor-bon loads, seems the dies which I paid the premieum price for were'nt up to snuff for forming cases so I'm getting a collection of once fired brass before I try a set of lee dies. I hear lil gun is the best powder for the big bores.
RR

Me too. However, I didn't have very good luck with it and neither did a couple of other guys who post here. I did have some good groups with Accurate 1680 and I know Rost has used 4198, too. Best wishes in your load developement and please share your results.

noticed impact, IE reaction on the deer or you see the bullet hit through the scope before you loose the deer in recoil? Maybe we are on 2 different subjects?? I"ve seen the impact in the scope on 243s and under, but not on the beowulf for sure.

PS had decent luck with lil gun when I swapped to Barnes bullets. one of the 4198s is accurate but slow. The other I"ve yet to test but works good in my nephews 45-70.


Jeff

No rost, honestly, when I bought the socom, tony rumore, who runs www.tromix.com, talked like recoil was brutal, I was leary the first couple shots, but the gas system on an AR is so efficient my 25 wssm recoils like a 223 bolt gun and the socom is a lil more. unless I'm in an awkward position while shooting I always see the bullet impact quickly followed by the games reaction to the hit.
RR

I'm impressed. But I may be more trained to breathe right after the shot which induces a blink so that the eyes are ready for the next shot.

I will say that a 50 beowulf does recoil more than a 223 bolt gun though. But its no where near brutal.

Hey, maybe I'll have to get a 458 too. The reaction to all game shot with my 50 so far is run like hell, except the coyote which flopped but his shoulder and spine were both broken.

The definition of brutal to me is 378 Weatherby.

Jeff

Hmmmmm.. this is a good question I want to ask. I have a barrel for my encore that I rechambered to 223wssm. and sience have been informed by some people. that it would blow up..question Is these military weapons that much stronger than a encore. that it is all that safer???

Rost, thats typical of whitetails and big bullets, if you use a large caliber for deer, you must expect some runners, seems the thin skinned critters aren't heavy enough to expand the bullet.
I used to hunt them with a 350 rem mag, they all ran after the shot, drill both shoulder blades, same results. ya want them DRT? hit the shoulder with an expanding bullet, at high velocity.
RR

275X bullets always open, even through the ribs. .5 inch in, 1.5 inch out.

Hubert-- The Encore is strong, but with short fat cartridges the issue is how fat vs the amount of steel remaining around the chamber. Thats where the strength issue is. As I'd inquired about a few larger calibers in the Encore also.

Jeff

I've shot a dozen or so animals with 275 X bullets leaving the muzzle around 2,000 fps with both a Smith and Beowulf. None heavier than 300 pounds, but the effectiveness and stunning results from that bullet would give me plenty of comfort to take on anything from the biggest nasties on down. And that's the lightest Barnes 50 cal. offered but the hollowpoint in the bullet could be used for a shot glass if the need arose: it's the deepest widest hollowpoint I've ever seen. The 325X or 385X would be the best thing for stuff that could stomp ya, but I would not feel undergunned with the 275's either no matter what I was up against.

Thanks for all the replies, I was out of town for a couple weeks and couldn't log on. Lots of great info.

I'm going to do the 25 WSSM I like the idea of 100 grainers doing 3300. If I was in yote and pdog counry the 243 with 55's going 4000fps would be the ticket, Wow! The book calls for 26" of drop at 500 if zeroed at 200. It doesen't get any flatter than that!

I e-mailed Dtec and as soon as I figure out the tax refund it should be a go.

Special thanks to RickyD and Ridge Runner. Sounds like your Dtec uppers shoot well. Thats pretty much all I needed to hear.

Thanks again!

TK

Glad to help out! I don't think you will be disappointed. Let us know how your's shoots for you after you get it.

May I ask a related question? What does a 458 SOCOM upper cost? Last site I checked had a last revised date of around 2004. Don't think the prices held that long. TIA Rusty Z

I think tony rumore still sells them for 865.00 but RRA is now offering them but not sure of the price.
www.rockriverarms.com
RR

RickyD,
You have a compensdated 243 from Dtech, How loud is it? Is it like porting and getting the blast? I sold my AR (made easy money...) and If I am going to build another one, I want it deer capable. Thinking 243 WSSM so I don't have to mess w/ deep seating bullets on the 25 wssm.
h

h,
I've only had it out twice and the first time was in a blizzard, but I didn't find it any louder than I would have expected any 243 WSSM to be. I didn't have to look for the plugs to use with the muffs anyway. I still haven't loaded for it yet. I have a hunt coming up in Texas for four days the first of April. Hope I can get it after it for that hunt.

humdinger, unless you know another source than OLY, you can't buy parts for a build.
Dtech has exclusive rights to build uppers using oly parts, so you can only get an upper from dtech or oly. AR's don't kick so after hunting and shooting my 458 socom AR for a couple years I didn't bother brakeing my 25, recoil is like a 223 bolt gun.
RR

Ridge_runner,
I bought my first AR from Mike so I am working with him on the pricing and such to build me one. I can see the $80 for the fluting to save weight, but not sure if I can justify the $100 for the compensator. I guess it does help hold sight picture, but this will be a coyote & beaver & deer gun if I go 243 wssm. I can see the reasoning, but I don't want something that barks like the browing Boss I shot once. May need to investigate the comp more. Wish the tax rebate would show up....
h

RR,
I bought my 16" barreled AR from Dtech and I am woking on this new one from him also. Dtech praises the compensator so you can stay on target for multiple shots on coyotes as well as prarie dogs. I just don't want a loud muzzle brake like my friends browing Boss! I want the fluted barrel at $80 to lose the weight, but the compensator at $100 seems excessive.
What barrel length did you and rickyd go with?
h

mines a 22" fluted SUM, no more than they recoil I didn't want the noise either.
RR

I went with the 22" barrel. Mike claimed his comp didn't increase the noice level and it seems to me he was right. I didn't find the price excessive when you look at other's brakes. Many are nearly double his charge. Mike's comp has about four or five small slots along the top of the barrel. Nothing like a boss, of which I have one and have had a couple others. Boss's are effective but loud.

Mike's fluting is very deep and shaves a good bit of weight off the barrel, making the gun practical to carry in the field. Mine weighs about 12 pounds with a heavy IOR 4.5x14x50 scope which is far from light but not out of the question to carry especially with a good sling system.

RickyD,
12 pounds.... that is heavy. Makes me think I should look at the DPMS 308 on the AR10 platform if they are that heavy.
RR - is yours this heavy?
Anyone try the AR10 DPMS at $860?
h

h,
12 pounds was a bit high. Here's a post I did as a response to you on the same topic a bit earlier:

"humdinger,
I weighed the upper and rifle over the weekend. I needed to reposition the scope and the rings so I pulled it, too.

The upper weights 6.2 pounds. That is inclusive of a long Swan rail to allow the scope to be positioned where I need it and gives 1/2" in height. Likley 5-8 oz there. My lower weights 2.4 pounds, so together they weight 8.6 pounds. My IOR scope weights 2.2 pounds with the aluminum Burris Tactical rings on it. so my gun comes in at 10.8 emply with no sling or bipod, both of which I will use."

So the gun is around 8.5 pounds including that Swan rail that might add 1/4 pound or more. Not bad for the performance it gives.

ok, don't have exact scales available here but on the bathroom scales, with a 1 piece RRA mount, 5.5x15 nikon and a loaded mag mine weighs ten pounds.
RR
BTW AR-10's average 2.5 pounds more than a AR-15 in the same configuration

RickyD,
You are right and I forget 4x12 scopes are heavy since I don't own any. I was out to the DPMS site and those rifles are hogs for sure.
RR - 10 pounds seem's manageable. There are a lot of good AR builders out there, but Mike's deep flutes are the main reason I am looking at him.
Stopped in Lakeville, MN gander mountain last weekend to get info on WSSM's and they are running the 223, 243, 25 wssm ammo on 20% clearance in case you need to stockup at your local GM.
h

The weight does not come from the power rating of the scope but from the scopes design. It is just plain heavy. IOR's are made in Romania to military standards. It has a 50mm objective, side focus, and illuminated reticle: all weight adding features. In addition the tube is a heavier wall thickness and is a 30mm diameter, than a scope like a Leupold VX II or III. I'm not saying that makes it any better, just heavier. As with anything, it's the buyers choice. Most 4x12'x come in under or at a pound, I believe. This is twice that plus a few more ounces to boot.

The 120 grain Winchester loads need to be set-back about .015" of an inch. I have shot hundreds of them for feed/function and accuracy tests, none have shown any increase in pressure. When I first tried them, I fired several that were not seated back as a base-line. I could not see or measure any change in pressure signs.

As RidgeRunner mentioned, we were never able to break the bolt or barrel extension during destructive testing. We were actually using a .243 WSSM and a 100 grain bullet. We filled the case with the fastest burning rifle powder we had and topped it with a 100 grain bullet. We ruined many cases but couldn't get anything to break. We finally put in 26 grains of Bull's eye and BOOM! The case-heat failed and turned the extractor into a banana. The bottom of the carrier blew down through the mag-well, but the bolt and barrel extension held.

Before any load data was available, I was doing load development on the .243 WSSM. I was loading one shell at a time and firing it over the chronograph. I made some miscalculations and sent some bullets out of that upper at speeds that raised the hair on my neck, but only ruined cases. I have been using the same bolt for over two years now for all of my testing. That bolt has probably seen more action then most WSSM bolts will see in a life time. If I wasn't confident that the system was strong, I wouldn't have anything to do with it.

Welcome to the Campfire, Mike. Have you seen your name taken in vain enough and decided to jump in? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Glad you signed on. Now I can sit back and let "The Man" comment on the AR wizzums. Likin' my 243!

Rick

LOL! No, I'm going to TRY to sit back myself. I've found, in the past, I'm not always good at that though......

I'm glad you like your new "smoke wagon". I work with them every day and I still like them!

Yes. Welcome Mike.

I am a new member too, and after some good feedback from RickyD and Ridge Runner I am thinking about one of your uppers in 25WSSM.

I started the process by looking at a 6.8SPC or 6.5 Grendel, but I'd like all the horsepower I can get.

I've been visiting your site alot, and making plans for a 25WSSM. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Mike(Dtech)

Yes welcome!!

I don't want you muddying the waters any here on pressures.
Any time you have a specific load, factory included, and you seat the bullet deeper you are reducing case capacity and raising both pressure and MV. Without testing gear you have no clue at what level you are working.

That can be dangerous and lead to issues folks don't want to deal with. The "external" visual signs of pressure rely on lots of things, especially in a gas gun, timing, gas port diameter, brass hardness(brand to brand, lot to lot etc....)

That being said, you don't have a clue what factory ammo is running pressure wise in a barrel and what deep seating the ammo does to the pressures.

I don't know what the accepted pressure is on a wizzum round but would think that in the AR it should be 50-60 kpsi max.

Now that I've said all that, I have done and continue to do and experience like you do, I have access to a pressure tester from a friend and tend to send stuff to him if in doubt. I'm mostly a 223 shooter in matches but try to keep my ammo to the 60kpsi level or less and have had no issues.

BUT I also know that things can be cumulative. If max is 50kpsi and you are running 60 or more, it may not blow today or the next, but it may well do it later down the line after being beat up each time it goes off.

I am like you though so far. I've run many rounds at 60 and have no pressure signs really visible and have had no issues at probably well over 50 thousand rounds fired. And IIRC the 223 specs claim either 50-55 kpsi max.

Remember I'm not so much arguing with you as stating that you cannot have any clue as to what the pressure is unless tested and what reseating does without testing.

An example though an extreme is that you'll usually get the same MV from the same pressure all else being the same. I shot 75 amax loaded to engage rifling for prone slow fire matches. It shot so well I tried the accuracy of seating them to mag depth. Accuracy was super and had some stupendous scores at 300 rapid fire at Perry a few years. Ugly rounds but accurate. BUT I also had to back off almost 2 grains to keep the MV(and supposedly the pressure) the same.

Sounds like I'll have to have one of your uppers one of these days though.

I'm just trying to keep everyone safe here as this AR forum doesn't have quite the experiences as others and lots of us that have slept with and driven the platform to the tune of 10-20K rounds a year since 1991(personally)

Again, welcome!
Jeff

Jeff, You must have assumed I didn't have the ability to measure the pressure. Building AR's is my "second life". I spent the last 30 years in electronics and have a full set-up with strain gauges to read pressure. In fact, pressure measuring equipment is not the only "hold over" from my first life that has been a huge boon to working with new cartridges. As I said, I shot several un-altered shells for a base-line. I didn't come here to get into any kind of "wee wee match" with anyone. As I stated before: If I wasn't sure it was safe, I wouldn't post it.

I'll make sure not to "muddy" any more water here.

Mike

Yes, my bad. My apology. Its so easy in typing to lead others astray. I went back and re-read quickly(on lunch break from a class) and did not see anywhere it mentioned strain gauges, piezos etc... just saw the word pressure and signs.

Had you said it was 50kpsi(I'm interested in what it actually read) and reseating in this instance read 50kpsi then I'd have said many thanks for doing the work correctly vs others just guessing.

I'm still standing by the fact(CYA) that reseating any ammo changes the pressures or certainly can in many instances.

No muddy water, no pp contests. Just a slight miscommunication. Please understand and accept.

BTW what pressures did it take to toast that bullseye round? I'm interested in that myself.

Jeff

Actually I did say "measure" but didn't qualify it with the method. My rig is based on the same equipment as the ones put out by Ohler. They don't read out in kPSI or CUP. You need to have a "standard" that gives you a base-line with that receiver. Then you can tell if the load is higher or lower and by how much. I have never used standards, I have used it as a comparison to known loads. Like I said in my first post, I shot several un-altered loads for a base-line. I just have mine hooked up to a Fluke digital storage scope. I can store and measure time, and pressure.

The destructive testing was done at the Olympic Arms factory in Olympia Washington. During the WSSM project I made two trips out to the plant but didn't bring my equipment out. I would have liked to have had a strain-gauge on that chamber. It was pretty impressive.

Hi Mike,

Great to have you here!

When you say to seat the factory bullets back .015 is that so they will fit in the mag. or to keep the bullets off the lands? or both?

TK

its so they'll fit the mag, my mag is a lil different from currant ones, the 120 gr factory loads will fit my mag, but in the supreme line even the 85 gr SBT's have to be set back a fuzz.
RR

It's just so they will fit in the magazine.

Thanks Mike, RR.

Mike, I'm doing my taxes today, we'll see if you need to warm up your lathe!

Thanks, Tom

LOL! The poor lathe hasn't cooled down since August! Normally during the winter months I have 5 or 6 builds on my clip-board, I now have 14. By this time last year, things had begun to slow down a little.....not this year. I have been running a little over 2 weeks for the average build. Customers seem to accept that length of time fairly well.

Mike,

Can you PM me with prices for a 25 WSSM to fit on my rock river lower?

I have not read it here, but all of you who have the wssm's in the AR, are there not difficulties forseen for the connection pins? I mean, the rifle was designed for the little .223. Won't the added recoil/pressures cause premature wear on the lower where the pins hold the upper?

Just wondering.

THATS BEEN TAKEN CARE OF 06, the sheer weight of the massive wssm bolt slows everything down causing no more wear than a 223. not sure what all else has been done but you don't notice any violent bolt thrust when firing a wssm.
RR