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Jim
Prove that the new bullets hold up just as well as the old ones did using a dry newsprint test and I will withdraw my theory and eat all the crow necessary. That is really special of you. Let's recap, shall we? You come on this forum claiming the new Hornday Interlocks are schit in terms of performance on game, yet you provide NO proof of same. Then you have the balls (sans brains) to accuse them of a "marketing conspiracy" to overcharge Canadians for bullets. THEN want OTHERS to provide the proof by testing bullets you cannot? YOU are the one indicting Hornady bullets here, skippy- YOU provide the proof to back it up.  BTW, here is one of MANY good replies to your "problems" with the Hornday bullets. It was posted a few pages back by an Albertan. You need to read it again and let some of it's wisdom sink in the cement filled skull of yours.. Quote- "You have had good luck with the interlocks.. I'm happy for you. Have you considered that maybe you have been pushing the envelope with this bullet for years. It has held up beyond expectations for you. After all it is just a standard cup and core rapidly expanding frangible bullet with an added bonus feature that on occasion sometimes helps retain the core. All this for the same price or less than other bullets of similar design without this feature. Your experience of complete penetration up until now just goes to show what an exceptional bullet the interlock is, holding together beyond what can be reasonably expected for that design of bullet. You have been getting premium bullet performance from a non premium bullet. Finally your luck ran out, you had an experience where it came apart or failed to completely penetrate your animal, that is to be expected from this type of bullet, Instead of complaining you should be praising your experience with these great bullets. Apparently your expecting more penetrating performance than this bullet is designed for. If you want complete penetration every time then perhaps spend more $$ on tougher bullets, even premium bullets designed to penetrate deeply don't always do so." Unquote.
Last edited by jim62; 12/20/10.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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Jim - I really don't understand why you insist on this being a pissing match? I'm a scientist and I'm not interested in winning here - just discovery truth. I've submitted a theory - it ain't my ego I'm putting on the line. It's a thought, an idea. And I've been wrong about ideas before, too. I freely admit that.
I currently cannot test the theory because I don't have anymore ID ring interlocks. I'd go buy some more but... ummm... well, they aren't around anymore. And I can't ask anyone from the US to send me of US export laws.
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Jim - I really don't understand why you insist on this being a pissing match? I'm a scientist and I'm not interested in winning here - just discovery truth. I've submitted a theory - it ain't my ego I'm putting on the line. It's a thought, an idea. And I've been wrong about ideas before, too. I freely admit that.
I currently cannot test the theory because I don't have anymore ID ring interlocks. I'd go buy some more but... ummm... well, they aren't around anymore. And I can't ask anyone from the US to send me of US export laws. It's not a "pissing contest". I am GENUINELY offended by the lack of overall intelligence you have brought to your little Hornady witch hunt here. You are smearing the rep of a GOOD product made by a GOOD company all on the very flimsiest of evidence. As a user of Hornady's products for the last 30 years, I am offended by that. And also because I have a pretty good sense of basic FAIRNESS and LOGIC which apparently you do not. If I saw any REAL evidence here posted by anyone to back up your accusations and theories, I would be right behind you on this. As it stands- Not at all. Sorry. As far as testing old vs "new" Interlocks... What makes you think Hornady does not have TONS of ballistics gel in their lab. And, what makes you think that EVERY TIME they make even the SLIGHTEST design tweek to their bullets that they do not then test the old version vs the new before moving forward? It's a sick form of delusional arrogance to think anything qualifies you to know more about how Hornady's products perform than they ALREADY do. It's like you trying to tell me that just because you bought a plane ticket on an Airline flight, that you are now qualified to fly the plane.
Last edited by jim62; 12/20/10.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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In the words of a famous gunwriter "you are a hard headed horses ass" Ignore on.
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In the words of a famous gunwriter "you are a hard headed horses ass" Ignore on. Dude, you must be looking in the mirror. If you think you've got more bullet building know how than Hornady, you are ONE funny guy.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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JORDAN: I'm being NICE, not arrogant, sarcastic, or incorrigible. Please re-READ my quote that YOU POSTED. Find where I said they "lenghtened the bullet". YOU WONT.
I said," the remainnig shank" would be a little longer." That is different. NO REPLY NECESSARY.
MIKE & ALETHEUO; It WAS nice meeting you BUT in the words of
JOHNNY CASH to Rodney Crowell, "Son I don't know you well enough to miss you..."
JWALL--OUT ! ! !
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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JWALL - Personally I think your writing and ideas are well thought out and I give you credit for that. I also think you are flexible enough to change your mind if you would need to. Give it some time - ideas brewed in the crockpot of life tend to be the better quality ones. This has come like a fastfood meal from Raunchie Ronnies. Perhaps I'll wake up tomorrow and realize that it was just a bad Big Mac from the night before and interlocks are just as good as they've always been.
But seriously, you don't know how many times I was over at Mike's house and he would pull out the weatherby catalog and show me how they loaded up interlocks for years and years for the 300 weatherby mag. He would always say that if they are good enough for weatherby (both the company and their high velocities) then they are good enough for his -06. He is quite a bit more hard headed than I am and really set in his ways and he'll freely admit that. So when he showed me the jacket of the 180 that he shot at that elk at 2800 fps from his -06 I thought whatever buddy and I kept using interlocks throughout the season.
So he did his brief study and mailed it off to hornady which he never heard back on. Then he put his stash of interlocks up for sale and bought 168 TSX's - that's when I really took notice. When he knows something works he sticks with it, that's the character he is. He's pretty stuck in his ways. But he was willing to look at his idea and change it because he felt it was wrong even though he already had 1200 interlocks on the shelf.
Mike still doesn't know that the TSX isn't the best bullet to use on deer cuz they go further (I'll let him figure that out himself - but our deer and elk seasons always are together here so you always needs an elk bullet) but for elk I think he's done himself a favor even if it does mean he only has 300 bullets on the shelf rather than 1200.
I don't want to smear hornady. I want answers to questions and currently they aren't giving any. The only way to determine this is by doing testing ourselves.
Jamie
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Just your mindless little rants against Hornady and how they are responsible for high bullet prices in Canada?
It's your utter stupidity here that is deafening. Why you like that anyways? While I don't have any scientific research up to your standards to add to the thread, I was watching this thread cuz I like and shoot Hornady bullets in a couple rifles including the 180s in a 30/06. You lose it with me when you start running down Canadians as a group, something you wouldn't put up with, I'm sure. There's a couple guys in this thread trying to have a conversation and maybe learn something. Why not leave them be and find a thread more your speed with more learned shooters? .
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SuperCub,
You should cut him a little slack. He is so proud of his IQ that he posts it after his name and it appears to be accurate.
Jim has been an azz on several threads and I'm putting him on ignore before he goes on another rant.
Last edited by doubletap; 12/20/10.
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.
- Albert Einstein
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JORDAN: I'm being NICE, not arrogant, sarcastic, or incorrigible. Please re-READ my quote that YOU POSTED. Find where I said they "lenghtened the bullet". YOU WONT.
I said," the remainnig shank" would be a little longer." That is different. NO REPLY NECESSARY.
WTF??? I think you should re-read my post. I'm also being nice. There's a whole lotta testosterone floating around on this thread. All I did was point out that moving the IL ring forward did NOT promote deeper penetration, but rather it promotes core loss, as JB pointed out before me. Lengthening the bullet has little to do with the majority of my post. Guys on this thread just need to calm down. This doesn't need to be anything but a friendly conversation...
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Glad I stumbled onto this thread - I was scratching my head recently...3 medium size Pennsylvania deer 100-120 lbs with a .375 Ruger Alaskan using factory 270 gr SP-RP interlocks...not one exit wound and not one DRT, even though the shots were spot on...what gives?
I know my experience is anecdotal, but with that much bullet weight I was shocked to not get better penetration nor a single exit wound.
Additionally, for a bullet promoted as recoil-proof, the tips get smashed to bits in the magazine and get set back slightly for subsequent rounds. To be fair, they still shoot accurately at 100 yds, but they sure look like hell.
Anyway, just my $.02 to add to the discussion. -Joe Joe, I'm curious - what did the bullets look like? I really like to do a thorough post-mortem on the game I've killed, but I was hunting with friends and didn't want to hold up the rest of their hunt lolly gagging with my field dressing. No bullets (or fragments) were recovered from the hides or carcasses, so my best guess is that what was left of the bullets was left in the gut piles. Again, while I understand that it's not a large enough sample size to be statistically relevant, these animals were shot well (placement was basically quartering to, shoulder hit square in all cases) with a really big bullet (for whitetails) going pretty fast. (chrono'd 2725 fps 10' from the muzzle) I expected 'Hammer of Thor' results on these critters. I actually *was* afraid I would get massive meat damage, which I did on each shoulder, but without the benefit of DRT performance. It would be fair to ask me what the hell I was doing deer hunting with a 375 Ruger? no one has, but I will answer anyway: I plan to do some hunting in Alaska for Moose and other species in big bear territory, that's why I bought the rifle, but I wanted to carry it afield for a while to get used to it and put it through it's paces before I was REALLY counting on it. It's a great gun and (amazingly) well sub-MOA accurate with all of the factory offerings, but I don't think I will carry it afield with this bullet in the chamber anymore. To be clear, this bullet *is* cataloged as an Interlock by Hornady. (not sure if that was being taken to task by someone or if they were mentioning another post.) This is the round: http://www.hornady.com/store/375-Ruger-270-gr-SP-RP-Superformance/Loaded with this bullet: http://www.hornady.com/store/375-Cal-.375-270-gr-SP-RP/I will pick up a bullet puller the next time that I have the chance and try my hand at sectioning...I'm pretty curious now... -Joe
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"My theory is this - and it is simply a theory. "This is simple capitalism. The interlock was too good a bullet to have alongside the newly introduced interbond so they had to dumb it down so that they could make more money on premiums instead as premiums make them more money." [quote]
I don't mean to start a flame war (though that work seems to already have been done here!) ;-) but there is no sound marketing reason for Hornady to make one of their products worse to promote the Interbond. They are in much tougher competition with other bullet and ammo manufacturers than they are with themselves.
They simply (and only) must promote it as 'better than' an 'already excellent' bullet for that product to succeed with the 'must use/have the latest and greatest' crowd which I have long-suspected drives the shooting-sports industry. (among others)
-Joe
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"My theory is this - and it is simply a theory. "This is simple capitalism. The interlock was too good a bullet to have alongside the newly introduced interbond so they had to dumb it down so that they could make more money on premiums instead as premiums make them more money." [quote]
I don't mean to start a flame war (though that work seems to already have been done here!) ;-) but there is no sound marketing reason for Hornady to make one of their products worse to promote the Interbond. They are in much tougher competition with other bullet and ammo manufacturers than they are with themselves.
They simply (and only) must promote it as 'better than' an 'already excellent' bullet for that product to succeed with the 'must use/have the latest and greatest' crowd which I have long-suspected drives the shooting-sports industry. (among others)
-Joe
Joe, Exactly my thoughts and well said. I've used the Interbonds enough in the last 3 years to see Hornady does NOT have to "dumb down" their lesser bullet designs to make the Interbonds look good. Which brings up a point as to your Interlock experiences with your .375 Ruger. I would use either an Interbond or GMX slug in that cartridge to get the kind of penetration you seek. Many of the .30 cal Interbonds I have used on deer have contacted heavy bone at less than 100 yards. I have seen Interlocks complete blow out spinal vertebra on deer and go out the other side several times. Other than the shoulder and hip knuckle joints in the shoulder and ham, there is no denser bones in a deer than the vertebrae. Any slug that can stand up to that and hold together is a tough bullet.
Last edited by jim62; 12/20/10.
To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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[quote=noordinaryjoe]"My theory is this - and it is simply a theory. "This is simple capitalism. The interlock was too good a bullet to have alongside the newly introduced interbond so they had to dumb it down so that they could make more money on premiums instead as premiums make them more money."
I don't mean to start a flame war (though that work seems to already have been done here!) ;-) but there is no sound marketing reason for Hornady to make one of their products worse to promote the Interbond. They are in much tougher competition with other bullet and ammo manufacturers than they are with themselves.
They simply (and only) must promote it as 'better than' an 'already excellent' bullet for that product to succeed with the 'must use/have the latest and greatest' crowd which I have long-suspected drives the shooting-sports industry. (among others)
-Joe
Joe, Exactly my thoughts and well said. I've used the Interbonds enough in the last 3 years to see Hornady does NOT have to "dumb down" their lesser bullet designs to make the Interbonds look good. Which brings up a point as to your Interlock experiences with your .375 Ruger. I would use either an Interbond or GMX slug in that cartridge to get the kind of penetration you seek. Many of the .30 cal Interbonds I have used on deer have contacted heavy bone at less than 100 yards. I have seen Interlocks complete blow out spinal vertebra on deer and go out the other side several times. Other than the shoulder and hip knuckle joints in the shoulder and ham, there is no denser bones in a deer than the vertebrae. Any slug that can stand up to that and hold together is a tough bullet. I am a fan of the Interbonds and GMX's but I am not (yet) set up to reload, so either I pay through the nose to have Superior load something up for me, or I use factory ammo. I have a stash of previously available 300gr Round Nose Interlock ammo, which should do better if for no other reason than the extra mass. The currently available 300gr Dangerous Game Expanding load, with it's steel core, should hold together just fine, but I am afraid on lesser targets, like whitetails, they might not expand enough...though since it starts out as a .375" hole it doesn't have to expand much (er, at all) to punch a big enough hole, and I am well assure of pass-through shots. Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions! -Joe
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Hello
I'm one of the guys on CGN who had problems with the Hornady 180gr Interlock. I was informed that this discussion was occuring on this site by a friend, and I thought it prudent to chime in. First some history; about 18 years ago I had been using the Speer Grand slam with good success, but it was mentioned to me that the hornady interlock was just as good of a bullet for a fraction of the price. I decided to look into this. Both bullets shot well in my then current 30-06, but when I sectioned both bullets, I found that the speer grand slam core didn't even stay in the jacket until both halves where seperated, yet the interlocknot only stuck to the jacket, but I broke a screwdriver trying to get the core out of the jacket. The jacket itself wasvery thick and robust, with what Hornady called the interlock. deep expansion grooves in the tip, and a ring on it that they called the ID ring. I used this bullet to good effect up until this year, when on my elk, I took a broadside chest shot in the ribs, then a frontal shot to finish the bull off. neither one of these bullets exited (something that I had come to ecpect), and upon skinning the animal found two jackets under the skin.......with no cores. I thought to myself that this must have just been a fluke until a friend of mine said that the same bullet totally came apart on a whitetail buck at about 80 yards (this was witnessed by abother friend of ours). About 4-5 years ago (I think in the same phone conversation) when Hornady had just brought out the interbond, I noticed that with the current lot of hornady 180gr interlocks that there was no longer the ID ring, so I called hornady up and was assured that they had changed nothing else on the bullet; I also asked if it was worth it to change to the interbond, and the guy on the phone asked why I would do so if the interlock was working. On his word, I bought at the time over 2000 bullets, and figured that I was set for a long time. When I noticed that these bullets where no longer working the way that they used to, I first called Hornady, and asked what was happening. The guy on the phone swore up and down that they had not changed the bullet, and that if I was having a problem, to send some bullets in for evaluation. There was a lot of dead air, and tension on that phone conversation. I had an old interlock kicking around, so I sectioned it, and it acted the same way that I remembered it. upon sectioning the new bullet, the first thing that I noticed was that the core no longer stuck to the jacket. The jacket was thinner; to the point that the expansion grooves seemed in the new bullet to only be superficial scores in the jacket. The cannuler appered to be more shallow in the new bullet, and if I remember correctly, the interlock seemed less robust. I sent one of the failed bullets, both sectioned bullets, and a few new unfired bullets off to Hornady about early October........I have not heard back from them.
Mike Thanks for sharing. I hate to hear that. I'm fond of the .30 190 BTSPIL. Expat
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
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some people recently had some "failures" with the 308 cal 180 grain interlock. I would propose that any failure is likely due to poor shot placement. What kind of "failure" are they talking about? Did the deer/carribou/bear/critter "run" after the hit? No "bang-flop"? How about a 270 gr .375 spitzer that failed to penetrate a black bear neck at at 35 yd. Is that failure enough to demand attention? Ted When I hear stories like that, I start to question the sanity of whoever is reporting it. Well, it was quite a few years ago, and I was the shooter. To add fat to your fire, I was shooting a 375-06 that only started the bullet out at around 2500 fps, and that bullet still completely disintegrated on the neck vertebrae. It did kill the bear, however!  Ted
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All I Want For Xmas Is a BJ From Jim62!!!
Hawooooooooooooooooo Ca'monnnnnnnnnn Jimmy...Dont Be Nervous Ya Bagbeat!! I don't have much of a dog in this fight since I have only killed a couple of animals with the interlock, with no problems. I think the post in quote really added a whole bunch of impressive useful intelligent info about Hornady interlocks to this discussion. How old are you about 12?
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes."
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Jim - I really don't understand why you insist on this being a pissing match? I'm a scientist and I'm not interested in winning here - just discovery truth. I've submitted a theory - it ain't my ego I'm putting on the line. It's a thought, an idea. And I've been wrong about ideas before, too. I freely admit that.
I currently cannot test the theory because I don't have anymore ID ring interlocks. I'd go buy some more but... ummm... well, they aren't around anymore. And I can't ask anyone from the US to send me of US export laws. I've got about 20 of them if anyone wants to do the experiment.
"Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you'll be a mile from them, and you'll have their shoes."
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Does anyone know if the change was specific to lots beginning with 208 or was it those lots and all others after.
"Hail to the King, Baby!"
Ash, Army of Darkness
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Not sure about internal differences. I have had fine results with interlocks in .270, 7mm and .308. Unless impact velocities were very high- maybe 3000, they performed very well.
Exterior appearance-wise they seem different today than say 25 years ago?... Cannelure/exposed lead... I recently uncovered some old (c. 1985?) reloads with 165 gr. .308 IL's. When I pulled the bullets and compared them to some purchased 4 months ago, they were a little different. I haven't sectioned any though, and the new ones shoot as well as the older version.
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