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#7313180 - 01/15/13 Does anybody else consider this?
Tanner Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 10371
Loc: High Country Colorado
I'm just doing a bit of thinking here, which usually doesn't end up well, but bear with me.

When shooting plates/paper/rocks/whatever during practice, does anybody else like to look at their "distance from POA" as well as or instead of actual group size? Groups are as important to me as the next guy, but lately I've been focusing hard on keeping all of my shots as close to center as possible (which in theory should create sweet groups, too). For instance, if I'm shooting a 10" plate at 600 yards, and all of my shots are 3.5" from my POA, I could potentially have a 7" group, but the shots are still very tight to my intended point of aim, and would result in some good stuff happening on game...

Anybody else have thoughts on that?

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#7313228 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
Jordan Smith Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 7865
Loc: Calgary, AB, Canada
Getting hits on your intended target, as always, is the point. Whether that be a 12" vital zone, a 3" varmint, or a 10" plate wink

A 0.1MOA group means little if it's 6" to the right of what you're hoping to hit...
_________________________
"Others are happy to hit the rock, or maybe the dark spot on the rock. I wanna head shoot the mite clinging to the pubes on the left nut of the fly that's sitting on the black spot on the rock."

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#7313269 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
338Norma Offline
Member

Registered: 11/07/11
Posts: 118
POA / POI is all I look at. I only look at groups for Comps. and load development and check it once in a while. Other than that I want to see how close to the center of the plate I can hit. For long range hunting my practice at the range is done for the most part with one shot my first cold bore. Its the only one that counts.
Each rifle gets tracked for 1st round. One of mine always drops the first (Cold Bore) 1/2 MOA low and therefore gets a half added.
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"Fast is fine accurate is final"

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#7313315 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Jordan Smith]
Tanner Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 10371
Loc: High Country Colorado
I suppose what I should've asked is if anyone keeps track of how close to center their successive shots are. That's what I've been looking at lately.

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#7313489 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
MojoHand Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 5773
Loc: Down at the crossroads...
Tanner,

I have gone more toward the 'sniper/tactical' route than the 'benchrest' idea lately. No, I'm not a tacticool wannabe, but what I mean by that is instead of small/impressive groups I shoot for POA/POI intersection, especially from cold bore.

Now of course BR guys got to hit the X ring as well but you know what I mean...which is exactly what your thinking about and what Jordan pointed out, that is, consistency is good but accuracy is great. Far more important in hunting and plate shooting than small groups.

My .02
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It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...

Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.

Stupidity has no average...

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#7313515 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: MojoHand]
MojoHand Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/07/10
Posts: 5773
Loc: Down at the crossroads...
For a good example, I would love to participate in these new 'tactical' shoots where you have timed events that require you to move with your weapon and be able to hit various sized targets at UKD in real world conditions with no sighter shots.

I think that kind of comp would be a blast and would interest me very much. In such a competition you could see the importance of 'accuracy' over 'precision'.
_________________________
It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...

Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.

Stupidity has no average...

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#7313972 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: MojoHand]
Tanner Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 10371
Loc: High Country Colorado
Mojo,

What you said about 'accuracy' vs. precision is perfect. I like the thought of putting 3 in the mag, setting up prone over a pack and lightweight rear bag, and putting 3 shots close to center in a timely fashion. That spells accuracy to me, and you just can't beat it for hunting situations...

This is a pretty cool little video of a Tac Match, if you're interested. I'd really like to try one of these.

http://tacticalmatches.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6044

Seems like most of those guys are running some sort of 6mm...

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#7314236 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
805 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/12/10
Posts: 1240
Loc: CA
Tanner
I am actually starting to do the same thing. Group size is nice when trying to fine tune the load at longer range. Once that is developed its all about first shot hits and how close to center.

A nice trigger helps that huh!

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#7314645 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: 805]
JasonF Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 946
Loc: Australia
Precision builds confidence, but accuracy fills the freezer.

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#7315002 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
Take_a_knee Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 09/10/09
Posts: 13799
Originally Posted By: Tanner


When shooting plates/paper/rocks/whatever during practice, does anybody else like to look at their "distance from POA" as well as or instead of actual group size?


Yes, its called learning to read wind.

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#7315637 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
varmintsinc Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/25/04
Posts: 4685
Loc: MT
Originally Posted By: Tanner
Mojo,

What you said about 'accuracy' vs. precision is perfect. I like the thought of putting 3 in the mag, setting up prone over a pack and lightweight rear bag, and putting 3 shots close to center in a timely fashion. That spells accuracy to me, and you just can't beat it for hunting situations...

This is a pretty cool little video of a Tac Match, if you're interested. I'd really like to try one of these.

http://tacticalmatches.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=6044

Seems like most of those guys are running some sort of 6mm...


.243 with the 115Dtac is a tough combo to beat in those matches. Plenty of energy to knock down steel and is like a lazer getting through the wind. Combine all that with light recoil (or no recoil with a brake) and its only downfall is a short barrel life.

The concept I like in the tac matches is that only well placed hits count, the only time I have ever seen a group measured is in the event of a tie breaker the smallest group on a particular target can be measured. The single best group I have ever shot was at 600 yards making called head shots. The three shot group was right at an inch but it counted for a big fat zero since it was 2" left of the scoring ring because I missed the wind call by about 2-3mph.


Edited by varmintsinc (01/15/13)
_________________________
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.

"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper


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#7316139 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: varmintsinc]
Ringman Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/04/03
Posts: 17304
Loc: G P,OR
Quote:
.243 with the 115Dtac is a tough combo to beat in those matches. Plenty of energy to knock down steel and is like a lazer getting through the wind. Combine all that with light recoil (or no recoil with a brake) and its only downfall is a short barrel life.


You can correct that by going with longer neck. I have a friend who did just that with his .243. He pushed the neck shoulder junction back and still gets about the same velocity. I don't know what he calls his wildcat.
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"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter

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#7316163 - 01/15/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Ringman]
Tanner Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 10371
Loc: High Country Colorado
Sounds like a 6mmSLR...

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#7318496 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
BobinNH Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 30542
Originally Posted By: Tanner
Mojo,

What you said about 'accuracy' vs. precision is perfect. I like the thought of putting 3 in the mag, setting up prone over a pack and lightweight rear bag, and putting 3 shots close to center in a timely fashion. That spells accuracy to me, and you just can't beat it for hunting situations...


Spot on wink

This is how I have been "practicing" for a very long time (about 30+ years)...after I fiured out that "groups" from sand bags are only a fraction of the true story when it comes to hitting BG animals in the field.
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You can't say very much on here without pissing at least SOMEBODY off-get used to it.

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#7318584 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: BobinNH]
Tanner Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 10371
Loc: High Country Colorado
This is why I started shooting water jugs filled with H20 and food dye recently laugh

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#7319311 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
Shod Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/02/12
Posts: 674
Originally Posted By: Tanner
This is why I started shooting water jugs filled with H20 and food dye recently laugh


Sounds to me like some kinda eastern bed wetting. theory.

Shod

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#7319461 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
Jordan Smith Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 7865
Loc: Calgary, AB, Canada
So steel isn't good enough for you now?
_________________________
"Others are happy to hit the rock, or maybe the dark spot on the rock. I wanna head shoot the mite clinging to the pubes on the left nut of the fly that's sitting on the black spot on the rock."

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#7319544 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
Hammerdown Online   content
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 8602
Loc: Northern California
Originally Posted By: Tanner
This is why I started shooting water jugs filled with H20 and food dye recently laugh


I do that too.
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Randy
NRA Life Member



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#7320035 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Jordan Smith]
Tanner Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 10371
Loc: High Country Colorado
Originally Posted By: Jordan Smith
So steel isn't good enough for you now?
Awwhh C'monn man laugh

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#7320073 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38356
Loc: La Grange, TX
For us in highpower when the wife and I were first learning, the first thing you did was to learn to shoot groups. Groups of up to 22 shots at a time.

If you corrected and couldn't hold a group things got worse quicker.

Once you knew how to shoot groups, the ONLY way your score went up and stayed up was centering the groups and keeping them such.

So at some point we quit practicing trying to learn to shoot groups, and ALL of our shooting was related in how close you were to the center.

I've shot a couple of groups at nationals in the past.. 300 rapid fire where the x ring is 3 inches... with irons on an AR... that were 10 shots LESS than 3 inches. Unfortunately every time I did that it was not centered usually for elevation and though they were groups to write home about so to speak, the location of such in the 9 ring tossed me out of the running for that match immediately.

So in a nutshell to me, you practice keeping tight groups first until you master that, and after that nothing much else matters except pinwheel X shooting so to speak.
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#7320291 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
Jordan Smith Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 7865
Loc: Calgary, AB, Canada
Originally Posted By: Tanner
Originally Posted By: Jordan Smith
So steel isn't good enough for you now?
Awwhh C'monn man laugh


grin

Cheer up, I've shot hundreds of water-filled milk jugs. *grin*
_________________________
"Others are happy to hit the rock, or maybe the dark spot on the rock. I wanna head shoot the mite clinging to the pubes on the left nut of the fly that's sitting on the black spot on the rock."

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#7320328 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Jordan Smith]
Tanner Online   content
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 03/01/11
Posts: 10371
Loc: High Country Colorado
It's pretty dang fun, and good practice to boot! Though, nothing does satisfy quite like the clang of AR500 laugh

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#7320374 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
Jordan Smith Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/30/06
Posts: 7865
Loc: Calgary, AB, Canada
It is fun, but I often find it hard to determine POI when the jug ruptures into small pieces, so these days I shoot AR500 so I can go and analyze my hits afterward.

But seeing a geyser of water at the shot IS quite entertaining...
_________________________
"Others are happy to hit the rock, or maybe the dark spot on the rock. I wanna head shoot the mite clinging to the pubes on the left nut of the fly that's sitting on the black spot on the rock."

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#7320468 - 01/16/13 Re: Does anybody else consider this? [Re: Tanner]
yukonal Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/04/08
Posts: 3038
Loc: MN
Originally Posted By: Tanner
For instance, if I'm shooting a 10" plate at 600 yards, and all of my shots are 3.5" from my POA, I could potentially have a 7" group. Anybody else have thoughts on that?



Switch to an 8" plate, and spend more time and effort reading and judging the wind. When all your shots are hits on 8" at 600 with your huntin' rifle, group size aint gonna mean squat. You're there.
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Originally Posted By: archie_james_c
I should have just
bought a phucking T3...



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