Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 45 LC "heavy" loads in a S&W Model 25?

actually this is shown in pearce's article, and the above load is splitting the deck between low and high on the suggested charge of the named powder. It is in the 20,000 psi category.

to take this as a hi jack in another direction. I have a box of speer gold dot 250 hollow points. The loads i am picking up run it at about 750 to 800fps. Talk about pokey. But they are suppose to penetrate 14inches of gellatin, and open to around .75.
I think of that, then i think of my home made cast 280 grain saa keith bullet hollowpoint moving at 1000fps. I guess there is such a thing as overpenetration in an urban environment.

WRONG The first N frames were the 38/44 ,which

were the first 357 loaded to near mag loads ,which brought about the REG MAG

that S&W brought out in 35,then the Mod 37,28 ect.

The Mod 25 though big framed will not take the high pressures the 29 will.

Many have abandoned there mod 25 because the 45acp has the same balistics.

Now the New Blackhawk will take any 45 colt loads you care to load!
Bob

While they are the same size frame and look alike, I have been told the frame of the 25 is not made to the same robustness of the 29.

That being said, the .45 Colt is a fine cartridge that gets the job done without having to be a firebreathing dragon at high pressures. Personally I prefer a double action wheelgun when in remote areas. If I ever have a set to with an ornery critter....a double is easier to manipulate with one hand. Faster too.....

Like I said before, a 250 gr hardcast moving 1,000 fps or a little more, will perforate most anything you need it to....

When I went looking for a model 25 I specifically searched for a 25-7 until I found one. Makes a perfect hunting revolver....for me!

The N frame was introduced by Smith and Wesson in 1907 with the "Triple Lock" .44 Special double action. That pre-dates the Registered Magnums in .357 introduced in 1935 and also the .38-44 Heavy-Duty in "38 High Speed" introduced in 1930. The Model 25 in 45 Colt was at first thought to be no more sturdy than a Colt SAA in the same caliber, which indeed has the same factory ballistics as a 45 ACP. In the past couple of decades though, due to research by Brian Pearce and others, the model 25 is thought to be able to handle higher pressures and take advantage of the 45 Colt's greater case capacity.

The conventional wisdom is now that a model 25 while not being able to take the pressures of a model 29 can generate velocities higher than one in 45 ACP.

Perhaps others here can tell you more about the specifics of the metallurgy involved but I don't think there has ever been any differences in the solidity of the frames. The slight difference between the ability of the two guns to handle higher pressures is due to the thinness of the cylinder walls of the 45 calibers being greater than that of the .429 caliber revolvers. I'm guessing that a .44 Special even is probably capable of handling greater pressures. It was not uncommon for Keith and his peers to load them up to at least 1200 fps as opposed to recent conventional wisdom which has the 45 Colt models capable of about 1000 to 1100 fps depending upon your source. The first estimates in 1978 were more like 100 fps less. Take note that velocities and pressures are not completely interchangeable. Also, I have no idea about previous 45 Colt models, the 1955 Target and the like, which were to the best of my knowledge, few and far between. The production of the 25's in 45 Colt that are made now, were pretty much started a couple of years before the standard issues came out in '78 with MIM production starting somewhere later...and possibly being of significance.

Anybody playing with top velocities in this or any other gun should not take mine or anybody else's word for it on the internet as their final analysis but should instead, do their own research.

First N frame was the Triple Lock, New Century in .44 Spec. brought out in 1907.

First .357 Magnum was the Registered Magnum, later called the model 27, brought out in 1935.

First N frame .38 Spec. was the 38-44 Heavy Duty brought out in 1930. The ammo for this was called the 38 High Speed or the like, but differed only in velocity from the 38 Special, to the best of my knowledge.

The M-29 and M-25 are indeed the same frame , no difference in strength of the frames. The cylinder walls are thinner is the 45 Colt chambering and the case head thrust is greater due to the larger diameter case. The N-Frame is marginal in 44 mag chambering and even more so in 45 Colt

The M29 & 629 received a "Durability package" upgrade around 1990, to help them withstand a steady diet of heavy bullet loads, which were becoming more & more popular in those days. IIRC it was additional heat treatment of components.

Yes, the .45 Colt naturally does have thinner cylinder walls and barrel shank, which leaves less safety margin. I wouldn't try .44 mag loads in one.

The other point is, a DA revolver would be chosen over a single action for rate of fire, at extreme close range. Whether it is a two legged or 4 legged assailant, a 250-270gr load at 1000fps is going to have less recoil than a 300gr at 1300fps, and be easier to fire accurately, in a dire situation.

I like my 5" M629, and have carried it in bear and mt lion country. For big bears, my .480 Ruger would get the nod.

One of these days I need to get me a M25-7. Always have liked 5" S&W's

I'm not real interested in getting into a pizzin' match about which N-frame came first, nor whether the M29 has a stronger frame than the M25.

http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=12

I stumbled across John Linebaugh's articles on his research with 45 Colt guns a long time ago, and that answered any questions I might have had. Like Linebaugh, I've taken to carrying a 4" Model 25 or 625 for most of my big-bore revolver carry and I'm satisfied it can handle all the power I need it to handle.

No one has deliberately blown up more guns than Linebaugh. If he says the M25 can handle the loads specified in his articles, I believe him.

BTW, TnC, I agree completely with your statement regarding moderate pressure loads in a DA revolver. Whether you're carrying a 45 Colt or a 44 Mag, a guy should be GTG with such a rig.

Save for Dick Casull.......

Yes S&W did what is referred as an "endurance package" S&W claimed better heat treating. I can tell you with certainty that heat treating will only make metal "harder or softer" depending on which you are after but will not make the metal STRONGER. The S&W M-29 will shoot the same loads as a SBH as far as not blowing up is concerned but wear is a different story. Also the N frame has a side plate that also weakens the frame, where as a Redhawk has a solid frame same as a single action. A double action will wear quicker than a single action even if the strength is the same

IIRC didn't the endurance package have something to do with improving the lockup of the cylinder, which was unlocking and rotating backwards under the heavy load's being used by the IHMSA shooter's?
Ditto's on checking out Linebaugh's work.

I had an X-frame that would unlock and rotate backwards as well as a number of N-frames.

Yes they made the notches a bit larger I believe but it still happens with some if pushed hard for a period of time

The problems with the N-frame M-29's is one of the reasons that the SAAMI pressure has been lowered from where it started

A number of years back I took possession of both a NMBH and a 625 Mountain Gun ; both SS 45 Colts. Hadn't read Brian Peace's 2007 article yet. I developed identical 335 gr LBT loads running about 1100 fps in both. Both shot very well but it quickly become evident the Smith was not up to the task ;becoming difficult to open. Internal parts were getting beat, peened beyond specs. Had a local, yet respected'Smith clean it up so I could send it on it's way.

Safe? Likely! Suggested? No!

Alan

A couple of things here.
There has been no lowering of the pressure levels for .44 magnum ammo since the round was introduced back in 1956. Pressure is measured differently, that's all. Same ammo all along.
The original 29's used much tougher, heat treated steel than did any other smith revolvers until then. As far as strenth goes, they are every bit as strong as the classic Ruger Super BH. HP White labs proved that many years ago. Both let go at 80,000 psi. The BH in .45 Colt, BTW, let go at 60,000 psi.
What happened to S&W over the years is some of the new owners changed the specs of the 29's. Visible differences are noticed in the lack of pinned barrels and the doing away of the recessed chambers. Other internal differences are not so easily noticed. The so called endurance packages were efforts to redo these design changes.
One more thing. What's safe and at acceptable pressures in one gun may not be so in others. That's one reason why the SAAMI pressure levels are set where they are. If you stick with that, your gun will do fine and last many years.
But if one doesn't strickly follow the loading data put out by the bullet and powder companies, pressures can easily vary, and one has no way to tell just what he's getting in a revolver. E

E the pressure is lower today. The old Rem loads chrono higher than most loads today. Some don't clock more than 1180 with 240's and that's a fact

I have to agree. .44 Mag ammo nowadays is not nearly as hot as it was. Even loading manuals have dialed back loads for the .44 Mag if I can recall correctly. And I don't think that a Model 25 cannot withstand the loads a BH can eat for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.