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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/26/u...rearms.html?pagewanted=all&_r=1&

Feb. 25, 2013

by Erica Goode

A growing number of shooting enthusiasts are creating legal trusts to acquire machine guns, silencers or other items whose sale is restricted by federal law � a mechanism that bypasses the need to obtain law enforcement approval or even undergo criminal background checks.

The trusts, called gun trusts, are intended to allow the owners of the firearms to share them legally with family members and to pass them down responsibly. They have gained in popularity, gun owners say, in part because they may offer protection from future legislation intended to prohibit the possession or sale of the firearms.

But because of a loophole in federal regulations, buying restricted firearms through a trust also exempts the trust�s members from requirements that apply to individual buyers, including being fingerprinted, obtaining the approval of a chief local law enforcement officer and undergoing a background check.

Lawyers who handle the trusts and gun owners who have used them say that a majority of customers who buy restricted firearms through trusts do not do so to avoid such requirements. And most gun dealers continue to require background checks for the representative of the trust who picks up the firearm. But not all do.

Christopher J. Dorner, the former Los Angeles police officer who embarked on a weeklong assault on law enforcement officers this month that ended with his death on Feb. 12, said in a rambling 11,000-word manifesto that he had used a gun trust to buy silencers and a short-barreled rifle from a gun store in Nevada without a background check.

Referring to a computer program available from the personal finance software company Quicken, Mr. Dorner wrote, �I was able to use a trust account that I created on quicken will maker and a $10 notary charge at a mailbox etc. to obtain them legally.� Mr. Dorner was not a felon and probably would have passed a background check had he received one.

Mike Campbell, a spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which enforces firearms regulations, said that applications filed with the A.T.F. for transfers of restricted firearms to trusts or corporations have more than doubled in the last four years, to more than 39,000 in 2012 from about 15,000 in 2008. He said the increase was largely attributable to the growth in the number of trusts.

Mr. Campbell confirmed that under current regulations, background checks were not required for the buying of restricted firearms through trusts. The agency, he added, was aware of the loophole and was reviewing changes to close it.

Lawyers who prepare gun trusts said requests for the documents had been increasing in recent months as proposals for gun legislation proliferated in state legislatures and on Capitol Hill. They said some gun owners were even creating trusts for nonrestricted firearms like semiautomatic rifles and pistols, hoping to protect them against the specter of future legislation.

The cost of setting up a trust can vary from a small amount for an online form to $100 to $2,500 in lawyers� fees, depending on location and the type of trust.

The sale and possession of silencers, fully automatic guns manufactured before 1986 and other firearms and accessories that fall under the 1934 National Firearms Act are legal in many states. But the A.T.F. keeps a registry of the firearms and must approve their sale, a process that can take several months, and the buyer must pay a $200 tax.

J. W. Hagan, a computer administrator in Jacksonville, Fla., said he created a trust to buy silencers, which have become popular for target shooting and hunting and can be owned legally in a growing number of states. He said the trust would ensure that if he died, his firearms would remain legal. The trust would also allow his fianc�e to use the silencers once the couple married.

�If I didn�t have a trust, she wouldn�t even be able to have the password for my safe,� he said.

David Goldman, an estate lawyer in Jacksonville who pioneered the use of gun trusts six years ago, said most dealers carried out background checks for restricted firearms. He called the notion that criminals might use the trusts to buy the firearms through a dealer �ridiculous.�

�Illegal versions of these items are not only cheaper,� he said, �but you can obtain them six months faster and you don�t have to form a trust, which could be $500 or $1,000 depending on the level, and you don�t have to tell the A.T.F. about it.�

Mr. Goldman, who has prepared several thousand gun trusts and teaches courses on their use, said the trusts have many benefits, like ensuring that firearms were passed on responsibly when an owner dies, keeping them from falling into the wrong hands in a difficult divorce or helping to negotiate moves to other states that might have different gun laws.

�There was never a proper way of dealing with firearms with estate planning and whether beneficiaries were appropriate to receive them,� Mr. Goldman said.

Gun owners also turn to trusts, other lawyers who handle them said, because in many jurisdictions, law enforcement officials refuse to sign off on the purchase of restricted firearms, making it difficult or impossible for enthusiasts to buy them as individuals.

Brian Reynolds, a lawyer in Denver, said he had prepared several gun trusts, mostly for people who wanted to buy silencers for long-range target shooting. But in many parts of Colorado, he said, sheriffs and police chiefs will not approve such purchases. �By having a trust, you bypass the need to get that authorization,� Mr. Reynolds said.

However, Jim Bueermann, the president of the Police Foundation, a research organization in Washington, said, �My guess is that the majority of police chiefs would agree that there is a reason why, as a general rule, people are prohibited from owning silencers, machine guns and what we would call sawed-off rifles or shotguns.�

Mr. Bueermann said that he was especially concerned about the loophole in A.T.F. regulations that made it possible to buy restricted firearms without a background check and that he thought most Americans would find this shocking. The A.T.F.�s regulations, in fact, exempt trusts from background checks, as noted in the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide, known as the White Book, and on the forms for gun sales that dealers file to the agency. (In one publication, its handbook on the National Firearms Act, the agency does say that the trust representative who picks up a restricted firearm at a dealer must have a background check, but that deviates from what the regulations require, the A.T.F. confirmed.)

Many dealers conduct checks anyway. But others take the government at its word. One dealer, for example, said he did not think he had to run background checks for sales to trusts because Form 4473, the record of the transaction filled out by the dealer and the customer and sent to the A.T.F., specifically lists trust transfers of restricted firearms as an exception to the requirement for background checks.

Bob Irwin, who owns the Gun Store in Las Vegas, said his store always performed background checks for firearm purchases involving trusts � the store has handled three so far this year � but he was aware that some dealers did not.

The gaps in the law that allow such lapses, he said, are �astronomically stupid.�

�That really is a loophole,� Mr. Irwin said. �I can certainly see how a felon could wind his way through it and end up with machine guns


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It's NOT a loophole, it has been legal for Trusts or Corporations to buy these items for years.......you can't do a background check on a Trust because a trust is not a person , it is a legal entity.

None of this would be an issue if there was no law enforcement signature requirement on form 4s or form 1s.........this stupid requirement allows the chief law enforcement officer(s) in an area to virtually prohibit transfers into their jurisdiction......this foolishness resulted in people taking advantage of the portion of the law that allows transfers of these items to trusts or corporations and transfers to these entities require no law enforcement signature.

Because of the outrageous cost of transferrable machine guns, most of the transfers to trusts these days are short barreled rifles, short barreled shotguns and suppressors.........none of which should be restricted anyway........I mean really, is a shotgun with a 17.5" barrel any more dangerous than a shotgun with an 18" barrel?? Does a muffler for your firearm make it more dangerous??

More stupid laws that do nothing to reduce crime........




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ergo the reason the "trust" is about to go by the wayside


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Originally Posted by eh76
ergo the reason the "trust" is about to go by the wayside



Don't bet on that.......

There is talk that the LEO signature requirement will be removed, and that transfers to Trusts will require background checks on anyone who can possess the items......but I don't see them going away.....


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Trusts, huh? I thought the Constitution did that. crazy


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
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http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/01/10/proposed-nfa-form-changes/

According to the Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs a series of changes are being proposed to the NFA transfer process (the process involved in acquiring a machine gun, suppressor, short barreled rifle/shotgun, etc.). These changes will:

Eliminate the requirement of a law enforcement official to sign your forms

Require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form 1 or 4

Require each member of a trust to complete and to submit photographs and fingerprints with forms

Require that a copy of all forms be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located

This series of proposed changes seemingly eliminates the benefits of forming an �NFA Trust�, a popular way to easily facilitate navigating the difficult NFA process. The elimination of the dreaded law enforcement signature for individuals however is a definite benefit.

http://www.reginfo.gov/public/do/eAgendaViewRule?pubId=201210&RIN=1140-AA43

Abstract: The Department of Justice is proposing to amend the regulations of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF) regarding the making or transferring of a firearm under the National Firearms Act. The proposed regulations would (1) add a definition for the term "responsible person"; (2) require each responsible person of a corporation, trust or legal entity to complete a specified form, and to submit photographs and fingerprints; (3) require that a copy of all applications to make or transfer a firearm be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer (CLEO) of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located; and (4) eliminate the requirement for a certification signed by the CLEO.



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I honestly never knew about this avenue..

But now I have questions:

Can a trust be formed to show legal ownership instead of an individual, therefore they cannot be confiscated if the individual violates some law? (no, not ME... laugh laugh )

Just wondering what the legal ramifications might be...


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Any Class III dealer that has a brain would tell you about this route.


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Originally Posted by Redneck
I honestly never knew about this avenue..

But now I have questions:

Can a trust be formed to show legal ownership instead of an individual, therefore they cannot be confiscated if the individual violates some law? (no, not ME... laugh laugh )

Just wondering what the legal ramifications might be...



The trust IS the legal owner...........


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Quote
Require that a copy of all forms be forwarded to the chief law enforcement officer of the locality in which the maker or transferee is located



This is a sticking point for me........a form 1 or a form 4 is a TAX document and should NOT be given to local law enforcement.........

Even if the changes are accepted, there are still advantages to using a trust.......the biggest is that more than one person can legally possess and use the NFA regulated item........as it is now, an item registered to an individual must remain under the control of that individual at all times.........


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Is it a requirement that anyone who works for BATF has to be a complete moron?

This statement is absolutely ludicrous. It's like saying that the increase in drivers licenses issued, is attributable to an increase in the number of people taking drivers tests.

The increase in transfers is largely because more states have legalized suppressors and legalized the use of suppressors for hunting. As well, you have an increase in transfers for SBR's due to the popularity of AR's in recent years.



Quote
Mike Campbell, a spokesman for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, which enforces firearms regulations, said that applications filed with the A.T.F. for transfers of restricted firearms to trusts or corporations have more than doubled in the last four years, to more than 39,000 in 2012 from about 15,000 in 2008. He said the increase was largely attributable to the growth in the number of trusts.



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Originally Posted by GonHuntin
Originally Posted by Redneck
I honestly never knew about this avenue..

But now I have questions:

Can a trust be formed to show legal ownership instead of an individual, therefore they cannot be confiscated if the individual violates some law? (no, not ME... laugh laugh )

Just wondering what the legal ramifications might be...



The trust IS the legal owner...........
I need to clarify - I didn't do a good job above..

What I mean to ask is: Firearms of any type in a household.. TRUST 'owns' the guns.. One of the homeowners does something stupid and now has a felony. He/she cannot own guns. Must they be removed from the house or can they stay since they're not 'owned' by any of the homeowners?



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Not sure across the board, but in Oklahoma, a felon cannot live in a house or even ride in a vehicle where firearms are present......

Oklahomam Self Defense Act:

TITLE 21 � 1283 CONVICTED FELONS AND DELINQUENTS
A. Except as provided in subsection B of this section, it shall be unlawful for any person convicted of any felony in any court of this state or of another state or of the United States to have in his or her possession or under his or her immediate control, or in any vehicle which the person is operating, or in which the person is riding as a passenger, or at the residence where the convicted person resides, any pistol, imitation or homemade pistol, altered air or toy pistol, machine gun, sawed-off shotgun or rifle, or any other dangerous or deadly firearm.
B. Any person who has previously been convicted of a nonviolent felony in any court of this state or of another state or of the United States, and who has received a full and complete pardon from the proper authority and has not been convicted of any other felony offense which has not been pardoned, shall have restored the right to possess any firearm or other weapon prohibited by subsection A of this section, the right to apply for and carry a concealed handgun pursuant to the Oklahoma Self-Defense Act and the right to perform the duties of a peace officer, gunsmith, or for firearms repair.
20
C. It shall be unlawful for any person supervised by the Department of Corrections or any division thereof to have in his or her possession or under his or her immediate control, or at his or her residence, or in any passenger vehicle which the supervised person is operating or is riding as a passenger, any pistol, shotgun or rifle, including any imitation or homemade pistol, altered air or toy pistol, shotgun or rifle, while such person is subject to supervision, probation, parole or inmate status.


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One of the interesting things in ths snakes nest of regulation is the fact that corporations don't need to get the LEO signature to purchase NFA items.

Make a mental note of this fact - the NFA items are restricted by a tax, they knew that they were shredding the Constitution with the NFA of 1934.

We should be pressuring our elected officials to reform the NFA when they are working on tax legislation.

I propose Federal Preemption - so that no state or locality has any gun laws more restrictive than the Federal Laws. A reduction of the tax would be good too. An end to the Clinton prohibition on new machine guns would be a major victory.

This type of legislative jujitsu is used all the time, but we gun owners never put enough pressure on our representatives and so we do not gain any ground.


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About what I figured..


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Redneck,

I would suggest you investigate a 'Living Trust'.

My parents did a good job sitting up their 'Living' Trust. I am the current Successor Trustee, and I can delegate use; management; possession;or sale of any property entered within the trust too any current named successor trustee at the time/date of delegation.

I would suggest you contact an agency who is up-to-date and specialty is Trust Contracts. The good ones will usually have an upfront fee at the signing of the contract, and continuing support afterwards. They will also guide you on how too create the 'contract' pertaining state and federal guidelines and regulations towards your desires for the 'Living' part of the contract.

This would also be something you would want too discuss with those listed as successor trustees.


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Originally Posted by siskiyous6
One of the interesting things in ths snakes nest of regulation is the fact that corporations don't need to get the LEO signature to purchase NFA items.

Make a mental note of this fact - the NFA items are restricted by a tax, they knew that they were shredding the Constitution with the NFA of 1934.

We should be pressuring our elected officials to reform the NFA when they are working on tax legislation.

I propose Federal Preemption - so that no state or locality has any gun laws more restrictive than the Federal Laws. A reduction of the tax would be good too. An end to the Clinton prohibition on new machine guns would be a major victory.

This type of legislative jujitsu is used all the time, but we gun owners never put enough pressure on our representatives and so we do not gain any ground.


The "no new transferrable machine gun law" was not a Clinton deal........not that I have ANY love for him, just setting the record straight.


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Yeah, that was backdoored under Reagan.

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Originally Posted by Redneck

What I mean to ask is: Firearms of any type in a household.. TRUST 'owns' the guns.. One of the homeowners does something stupid and now has a felony. He/she cannot own guns. Must they be removed from the house or can they stay since they're not 'owned' by any of the homeowners?


I'm not a lawyer, but according to my research all property listed in my revocable trust belongs to the trust and has designated trustee's who will administer the trust and the property therein if I'm not able to administer the trust for whatever reason (I'm dead, out of the country, incarcerated, etc.). That's even stated in my trust.

When I set up my trust I listed another rifle, a Swiss watch, $100 cash, and a collectible book just to show that the trust was a working trust in use at the time of my suppressor purchase. I'm thinking about listing my other firearms that were purchased from an FFL since I filled out a 4473 for them. From a legal standpoint, this should put those items out of reach of any JBT's as they will be property of the trust with designated trustee's besides myself. Now, asking a cop to understand the legal nuances of a trust is a whole 'nuther matter, and I suspect that 99.99% of cops would use their badge/gun to "bust my trust" and it would be up to other folks to shell out money to a lawyer and seek justice in a court.

I made up my own trust using a template that 'other people' have used and I didn't spend any $$$ other than about $1.75 at the public library to make copies. I did not submit fingerprints or a mugshot.


"To compel a man to furnish funds for the propagation of ideas he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." -- Thomas Jefferson

We are all Rhodesians now.






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Originally Posted by GonHuntin
Originally Posted by eh76
ergo the reason the "trust" is about to go by the wayside



Don't bet on that.......

There is talk that the LEO signature requirement will be removed, and that transfers to Trusts will require background checks on anyone who can possess the items......but I don't see them going away.....


Not according to the guys that own Thunder Beast Arms. ButI guess we will see.


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