Home Forums Gear Knives and Blades Nothing new under the sun.... the first Bowies

In case anyone gets confused...

THIS is an ORIGINAL Bowie, as perceived by the Bowie brothers, circa... 1831



....but THIS is a Spanish belduque....




This is an early original Bowie....



...but this is a belduque...



These are original Bowies, from the brothers themselves....





.. and these are belduques....

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Sharpshin/frontierfolk/Belduque3_zps31a98fd4.jpg[/img]

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v148/Sharpshin/frontierfolk/belduque4_zps84d98fce.jpg[/img]

Just to clear up any confusion...

Birdwatcher

The Germans have traditional hunting knives very much on the style of the belduque also...

I've never seen pictures of an original Bowie before and I am surprised that it bares so little resemblance to the modern versions..

Although I may be branded a heretic, my first thought when I saw that top picture was "nothing special" and certainly not a design that would interest me today..

I am fairly certain that rocks were whacked into that basic shape 15,000 years ago.
So what?

Pete,

Here's the link from where the Bowie images came from (click on those links)....

http://www.tamu.edu/faculty/ccbn/dewitt/adp/history/bios/bowie/knife_like_bowies.html

The product of an era when for most Americans the actual Frontier was a thing of the past, and the biggest threat was each other. Aint too many people would pick blades this big for everyday functional use for example.

Some of the first "Bowies" (around 1830) looked like this; no guard and a coffin-shaped handle...



Here's a link to that design, famously prominent in an 1837 portrait of a Cherokee...

http://www.antiquebowies.com/antiqueBowies/historic/tahchee/tahchee.htm

As that link indicated, the (Brit.) Sheffield knife industry jumped in early on the developing fashion trend.

A knowleadgeable internet acquaintance has pondered if it wasn't the Sheffield firms that actually DROVE the development of the classic "Bowie" configuration, noting the resemblance to classic 8th-11th Century Viking Seax's like this...



Probably no coincidence either that the Sheffield knife industry also supplied Mexico, Central and South America and prob'ly Europe too.

Birdwatcher

Some folks got an interest in history.

Clearly the Bowies themselves, who did have experience sticking people in combat, had no problem with the original configuration. Rezin hisself allowing that other people besides themselves had driven the developement of the design.

Birdwatcher

When did that famous design feature, the clip point with sharpened swage first showed up.
That is the shape that most folks associate with the Bowie knife

Dunno, I've seen it on an 1850 Sheffield example but I haven't spent much time on it at this point.

It would seem THE book to own is...

"The Bowie Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend" by Norm Flayderman 2004.

http://www.amazon.com/Bowie-Knife-Unsheathing-American-Legend/dp/193146412X

If you look at the link earlier you'll note that a 6" spear point English "Bowie" with a small crossguard MAY have been recovered from the Alamo by Bowie's nurse.

Elsewhere I found that "Bowie Knives" were first advertised in any newspaper in 1835, and that by 1836 British copies of the coffin hilt, no guard Tahchee form was being advertised and sold in New York as "Arkansas Toothpicks", a term that was apparently synonymous for Bowies at that time.

It does appear probable that Jim Bowie himself never actually saw an example of the classic clip point "Bowie" most associated with his name today.

Heck, with your interest in blades you really need to buy that book....

...and then you can loan it to me

Birdwatcher

Became popular in 1870-1880s.......

Henry Schively is the maker who made the knife for Bowie. However, it was for Rezin Bowie, not Jim. Rezin designed the knife. That said, it was Jim who actually made it famous, literally gutting a guy with it in a fight......

Can anyone read maker's mark on top knife?

Ah he11, I guess if I would have clicked on the link I could have saved myself some typing

most of these famous knives were made by the english.[I.X.L.,joseph rogers, & mappin & webb.american makers although very valuable represented only a small percentage of actual amount made. cranky72

Yep. Very few American Bowies as opposed to Sheffield.......

To recap, coffin handled Bowie knives without guards were being made in Arkansas by the early 1830's, this style often known as the Tahchee or "Cherokee" Bowie as a notable Cherokee of that name was painted while wearing one in 1837...

http://www.antiquebowies.com/antiqueBowies/historic/tahchee/tahchee.htm

http://www.antiquebowies.com/antiqueBowies/earlySheffield/Graveley/graveleyAndWreaks.htm



...at least one of these apparently making its way to England such that, by 1836 two men (Englishmen?) in New York City, John Gravely and Charles Wreaks were importing "Bowie knives" "in a great variety", including this one....



More from the second link above, note how quickly the market was flooded and/or the Bowie fad ended....

From 1836 to 1838 the importer, John Graveley, lived at Number 1 Park Place, one street North of Barclay. In 1833, Charles Wreaks sold goods as a Merchant at 82 William Street. In 1834 and 1835, Charles became an importer at 7 Platt Street. John Graveley came to New York in 1835 or 1836. John and Charles established a partnership in 1836 and disappear from the New York City Directory in 1839. If they were Englishmen, they may have returned to England.

The Bank panic of 1837 and 1838 caused many a business to fold. By 1838 the deadly use of the Bowie knife in murders and duels by ruffians and gentlemen caused a popular revulsion and legal furor. In 1838 the state of Tennessee passed an act to suppress or ban the sale and deadly use of Bowie-Knives and Arkansas Tooth-Picks. The Alabama and Mississippi Laws passed in 1837-1838 were not as strict as in Tennessee. These Laws curtailed the advertising and sales of the Bowie knife, Arkansas Toothpick and Dirks in the United States. The sales of Bowie knives continued in the frontier states of Arkansas, Louisiana and the Republic of Texas. With the arrival of Samuel Colt's multi-shot revolver, the Bowie knife lost its roll as a backup defensive weapon. A Bowie knife valued at $20 in 1837 sold for $1.50 in 1838.

I'm arriving at a conclusion that those knives meant primarily as weapons rather than utilitarian tools tended to be purposefully decorated, certainly a leap in heft and decoration from your average trade knife.

Note that at least some of these Bowies went West with the fur trade, and another name associated with the design of these knives; August Pierre Chouteau....

It is more likely that the primary purchaser of G&W�s knives was John Jacob Astor and the Bowie knife designs were provided by Auguste Pierre Chouteau. G&W were tenants of Astor in the Astor House. Astor, the Fur Titan, provided A P Chouteau with Indian Trade Goods. Chouteau owned a Trading Post at the three Forks of the Arkansas River above Fort Gibson in Oklahoma. These goods were transported from St Louis via the Missouri and Osage Rivers and by pack trains and Wagons. Steamboats on the Arkansas River also delivered goods to the trading post located near present day Chouteau Oklahoma.

Birdwatcher

Don't even THINK that this is a Bowie....

Turns out its a "buffalo knife".....

http://www.canadashistory.ca/Magazine/Trading-Post/Trading-Post-List/Articles/Spectacular-Knife



This Hudson�s Bay Company trade item was popular with hunters of western Canada during the last half of the nineteenth century. Often called a buffalo knife or chief�s knife, it was described as �extremely heavy� a sort of butcher�s cleaver with a point instead of squared-off end.�

Carl P. Russel, in his excellent "Firearms, Traps and Tools of the Mountain Men" (1966) includes a drawing of one by that same maker in the U.S. National Museum identified as a "Hudson's Bay Knife", also sold in the U.S.

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher

Sheffield exceeded quality in ever way.