Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Berger bullet differences?

I can not understand the difference between the VLD, Tactical, OTM, and hybrid.

All as far as big game hunting is concerned that is.

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Tag.

no one?

Lets see.

VLDs use a secant ogive which is generally considered the best shape for high BC. Quote from Eric Stecker: "Secant ogives are known to be more efficient in the wind (VLD bullets are pure secant ogives)" There are two types of VLDs target and hunting. The only difference is the thickness of the bearing surface. Target bullets are approx. .002-.003" thicker.

Hybrids: There are three types target, OTM and classic hunting.

All blend a tangent ogive with a secant ogive tips. Eric again: "As you move forward along the bearing surface, the ogive curve starts as a tangent tangent curve (which is forgiving of seating depth). As you continue forward on the nose the tangent curve transitions into a secant curve."

The OTM is designed for tactical use. Bryan Litz says:
these thick-jacket OTM Tactical bullets have been optimized for specific cartridges. The first one they made was the 300 gr OTM hybrid for the 338 Lapua.

Hybrid target bullets have thicker jackets than the classic hunter and generally have higher BCs. The classic hunter is designed to fit within the Sammi constraints of factory rifles. More details from accurateshooter.com:

" Hybrid bullets optimized for hunting are under development. Calibers would include .270, 7mm (.284), and .308. Specific bullet designs in development are a 7mm, 195gr EOL Hybrid Hunting, and a .270 Cal, 170gr EOL Hybrid Hunting.
Plus .338 300 and 250 gr bullets

Sept 17 2012
September 17th, 2012
Berger Releases SAAMI-Compliant �Classic Hunter� Hybrids
Berger Bullets has announced a new series of �Classic Hunter� Hybrid bullets designed to fit and feed in magazines and perform well in barrels with SAAMI standard chambers. Berger�s Eric Stecker explains: �For the first time in Berger�s history we�ve purposefully designed Hybrid-shaped hunting bullets that comply with the restrictive dimensional standards set by SAAMI. We did this so that hunters can shoot ammo loaded with Berger Hunting bullets in their factory rifles while feeding through a magazine.�
Berger came up with a new hunting bullet design because SAAMI standard dimensions significantly limit the length of the nose (negatively affecting external ballistics performance) in two ways. First, the length from the end of the neck to the tip of the bullet of SAAMI standard ammo is typically so short that to make an ogive that will allow bearing surface to be forward of the neck it must be blunt and therefore have a low BC. The other way SAAMI limits nose length is by specifying longer throat lengths than are optimal. Stecker notes: �When you have a long throat, the nose can�t be too long or the jump to the rifling is considerable. This is typically bad for precision and accuracy. So what you end up with is stubby nose bullets with low BC and poor external ballistics performance.�
To overcome SAAMI-imposed design contraints, Berger�s Bryan Litz designed Hybrid hunting bullets with noses short enough to conform to SAAMI dimensional standards. These bullets should be popular among those who hunt with factory rifles and feed their ammo through a magazine. The bullets use a dual-curve ogive design. As you move forward along the bearing surface, the ogive curve starts as a tangent tangent curve (which is forgiving of seating depth). As you continue forward on the nose the tangent curve transitions into a secant curve. Secant ogives are known to be more efficient in the wind (VLD bullets are pure secant ogives).
When you combine these two shapes you get the best of both worlds (less sensitivity to seating depth differences and improved external ballistics performance). Since these new Berger Classic Hunter bullets must have a nose length that is short enough to comply with SAAMI standards we get the most external ballistics performance possible by making the nose with Bryan�s Hybrid design.
Eric Stecker is enthusiastic about the new Hybrid Hunting Bullets: �We know that this bullet design works [well] because we tested it not only in media but also on game. I took these bullets with me to New Zealand to test them on several animals of various sizes and at various ranges. I know from firsthand experience that hunters who try this bullet in the field will be happy that they did.�

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It may seem confusing. It can get worse.

Some guys like Broz on LRH prefer the OTMs or hybrid target bullets with their thicker jackets for LR hunting. Others like the more frangible VLDs or classic hybrids. They all seem to work.

Roam around the net with specific questions on each bullet and you will find plenty of information. Hope this mess above helps some.

Probably easier to use a Nosler, Barnes or Hornady. mtmuley

I guess I must re-phrase my question..

Will the hybrids do for hunting?

My guns shoot the hybrids only really well.....

Fotis. What caliber and grain?

Here is my 30-378 with the 230 OTM's. Under 1/2"



I ordered the 105 hybrids for my 6mm-284

Fotis, I know Jeff(broz) on LRH has been shooting them on game with great results. I trust the Berger and don't think you will have any problems with them especially shooting groups like that.

Here is a link to one of his older posts. Looks like pretty good results to me.
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f19/berger-230-300-otm-hybrid-terminal-results-80283/

Fotus,

Sorry about the confusion.From what I have read you can at least use the 215 and 230 target hybrids for hunting. Not sure about the smaller calibers. I almost took my heavy barreled 6mm-284 with 105 berger target hybrids on a coues wt hunt but decided on using a 338 RCM shooting the 300 gr Berger OTM tactical at 2550 fps. It killed that coues just fine at 300 plus yds with minimal meat damage.

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Bob Beck of Extreme Outer Limits made some comments on LRH:

"Bob Beck
Bronze Member Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 46

Re: Berger Hybrid bullets
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Guys,

Thanks for all the questions! I will just reflect on my direct experience with the Hybrid designed bullets over the last three months of hunting so that I do not mis-state anything, or give fairy tell success stories.

I have been using the 338's for a while now like everyone else. I much preferred the gen 1 bullets to the gen 2, simply for the jacket thickness. Now this will soon be meaningless with the new hybrid hunting bullets on the way. So the question was, did I think the hybrids performed like the VLD's? At first I was skeptical that it was the design of a VLD that made it work so well. But after being able to fire a whole bunch of hybrids into animals, I now no longer have that opinion. It clearly is the alloy mixture that make Berger Bullets work every time. Plus obviously the ability to retain their velocity doesn't hurt!

For the hunts I have been on this year so far, a bear hunt, Barbary sheep, 3 stags, 2 fallow, Thar, Chamios, feral goat, arrapaw sheep, over 20 wallabies, and over 70 free range goats. The bullets of choice for these hunts/tests were all 30 cal stuff in the 185, to 230 grain offerings. We used our EOL/McMillan Rifles in 300. All the animals died on the first shot, except one fallow, and one stag that I hit to far back. They were dead on their feet, but I hurried and put a second one in them to make sure. Now to far back meaning hips, and rump, too far back. Everything that clipped the guts fell right down, and still died almost immediately. The rump shots were due to either I fouled up on the wind for a hurried shot, or did not read their body language correct at the shot and they turned in flight time.

For the 230 I am using so far it has been the target. Not that the jacket is any different then the OTM, just the nose design for a little higher B.C. Now one important thing I would like to mention, is that I noticed the 230 traveling 3000 fps out of my 26" bbl took away some of my concerns about the thicker jackets. I was apprehensive at first from working with the thicker jacketed 338 bullets traveling 2800 fps and slower. But now seeing how velocity was able to manipulate how the bullet performed in our tests, that has gone away. I feel the hybrid design is a solid winner for guys who want the VLD performance without the critical seating depth headache, and in the new hunting jackets, there are going to be off the charts incredible, I'm sure of it...
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Bob Beck
Extreme Outer Limits TV

and this:


I have used the 230 hybrids on well over 20 kills so far. Ranging from as close as 285 Yards to as far out as 1135 yards. The results have been impressive to say the least. In almost every situation the bullet has entered, created a ton of static shock inside the core, then passed through even Elk size animals. Most of the time the exit hole is approx 2", and there has been so much blood splatter on the exit side, that if you walk up to your animal not paying attention, you will end up quite the bloody mess before your knife even comes out!

With a B.C. this high, and the velocity a good RUM can push them, this bullet has to be on everyone's radar right now! Even a die hard Lapua shooter like myself has to really look at the potential of this bullet...
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Bob Beck
Extreme Outer Limits TV
bobextremeouterlimitstv.com
The Extreme Store
https://store.extremeouterlimitstv.com/
I discovered that the 230 Hybrid "Target" has virtually the same jacket thickness as my 210VLD Hunting bullets

Quote from Broz a contributor to Long Range Hunting website:



"The hybrids are of the thicker jacket family. My personal experiences (and they are many) show them to be great game hunting bullets at all distances. Even at as close as 60 yards on soft game like antelope where some bullets would turn into dust with the higher velocity chamberings. Or as far as my 2009 6x6 bull elk at 1130 yards. One shot DRT on top his last tracks. In fact, I can say every game animal (excluding the lion with a 17cal BT) I , my son, and my wife have taken in the last five years have been with Berger�s Target bullets no tracking required."

Go to this thread to see the results from a 30 cal hybrid:

http://www.weatherby.dk/showthread.php?6279-The-New-30-cal-Berger-230-gr-Tactical-OTM-Hybrid/page3

Fotus: If you look around the the net you will find many hunters are also using the target VLDs with great results.

Thank you guys.

TAG

A friend used the 105 hybrids on a couple of antelope and they penciled.

The hunting bullet is the way to go

Bummer, so I assume your friend retrieved the antelopes? The hybrids work well, just have a thicker jacket. Simply put any bullet into the vitals causing damage is going to be pretty good for a kill.

This is an old thread. Since my last post 6/13 I used the 105 match target hybrid from my 6mm-284, muzzle vel 3475 fps, on a small coues wt buck fall of 2013:

The buck was on the opposite slope 509 yds, inpact vel 2775 fps. He was facing me at a 45 degree angle. The bullet hit just under the spine behind the shoulder. The deer dropped and that was it. I can only conclude that 105 hybrid worked on that shot. Maybe next time I can get a double lung shot to see if it pencils through.

All I know it that he said, "never again!" In regard to the 105 hybrid and game. He recovered the antelope after the circus.

Glad to hear you had different results AZ