Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Need Long range s/a Varmint thumper help

Sometimes people get busy.....

John, negative. I am quite aware of MOA, MILs, and IPHY. Are you?

25 1/4 MOA is 26.436 inches at 100 yards. That Leupold with 25 1/4 MOA of elevation actually adjusted 28 inches and a bit at 100 yards. That is a 5.77% error.

That reticle is canted just over 2 degrees.

It was .5 MOA off zero after adjusting "25 1/4" MOA and back to zero.


It was a brand new in the box Leupold Mark 4 8.5-15xmm. It failed the most basic of tests.


For those who like to tout the example of one, I see hundreds of Leupold scopes shot a year. This is not in any way unusual. It is what we have come to expect with variable power Leupolds

To put this in perspective, that SWFA scope has outlasted 3 barrels in the last year.... Of the six we have, it has been shot the least....

I don't think even an extra set of twin 80's would let you stay down that long!

Seriously though, I talked to a SEAL platoon chief in 1985 that had just left a job at Crane and was involved with the search for a new sniper scope for the M24. He said their subsurface requirements destroyed every scope submitted including the Euroscopes that were considered THE top-shelf glass at the time. Leupold was the only maker that went to work and engineered a scope (the M3 Ultra) that could hold up.

I've heard Marines refer to the Schmidt & Bender as the "schit and bendover".

Doubling Down on a bad bluff is not the way to get out of this mess.

Fess up and admit the mistake and then drive on. I do not have an agenda to make you look bad.

things are getting odoriferous here.......

Here's the whole target. It is 25.2 inches from center of orange dot to center of orange dot.




The SWFA SS was mounted on a 24 inch barreled 7.62 bolt gun and was shot using issued M118LR. The Nightforce F1 was mounted on a test SR25 pattern 7.62 gas gun and was shot using the same lot of issued M118LR ammo. The Leupold was mounted on a 16 inch 5.56 Recce using issued MK262 MOD1.


John, let's get some things clear. I am not 'stick. I am not interested in an Internet pissing match. There is no "bluff". There were two military sniper school instructors present, the guy who wrote the markmenahip POI for a SOF Sniper school, a national champion 3-gunner, 2 IPSC GM's and about twenty combined IPSC state championships spread among the group. Call BS as much as you want, but you're so far out in left field it's not even funny.

You want to start pulling BS cards...? Ok. Anyone that claims to not have had or seen repeated failures of Leupold LR scopes either doesn't shoot much, or is a liar. I was at the a school house when the 110 was being tested with the Leupold M3 LR. It sucked then, and it sucks now. Quite a few at my former unit pulled the MK4 10x40's off the M24's and mounted them on the 110's. The Leupold TS-30A2's on the SPR's was more of the same. Our Navy counterparts adopted nearly across the board the NF 2.5-10x specifically for that reason.





TAK,

I have stated at least three times that the fixed power Mark 4's are great scopes. I also stated that current S&B's are having issues. Gee, how did I know that.....

I've learned something watching this, and it's that a mil based reticle with moa adjustments suck. 7 mils = 24.066 moa.

eh76,



Are you talking about sighting in your Leupold and it never gets out of adjustment? Or are you talking about twisting turrets all these years and never having one fail to go back to zero or go where you expected it to go when you twisted the turret?

I love my present Leupie. The first Leupold I installed on my .454 died in about 300 rounds. I was not twisting turrets. It just could not handle the recoil. The second one has been on there for years and has given me no trouble at all. In fact the last time I fired a five shot 200 yard group it measured 5". It is the only scope I would recommend for a handgun with stout recoil.

Your test, being not even close to as good as mounting the scope on the Jig and running up and down the Board, would be much better if you mounted all three scopes on the same rifle.

(Not at the same time)





WrongO...

The two best VARIABLE Mark 4's I've ever seen (besides my M5A2) are configured this way. I use one as my back up scope.



Man, you guys have been busy!

I just got back from Whittington's SRM. My Leupold Mark 4 didn't fail over the match again. Amazing. I failed 9 out of 60 times.

'Bout 60 shooters; I was 5th

Of the Leupolds my friends use at this match, one took High .308 for the 4th time

I always figured that they just didn't shoot very much,
Would not even consider a Leupold unless it had the Tucker Conversion.
And when you consider how far there quality has slid.
I would not bother at all.


dave

All I want to know is the Mk4- 10x40 a good durable scope?

Yes.

Or they are trying to sell you a scope.

They don't necessarily suck, but it is certainly easier to use a straight mil/mil scope. Less math (converting moa to mil) = less chance of screwing up.
Yes.

Excellent.



I would suggest a couple others to gain the advantage of Mil/Mil unless you already own it.

No one who knows anything about LR shooting has any problems using a scope set up in this configuration.

Your drop data is in MOA and your wind data is in MILs. Dial the drop and hold off for wind with the TMR.

If you dial wind, all your data will be in MOA and you just dial it and hold in the middle of the target.

Where is there a chance for a screw up or the necessity to do any MOA/MIL conversions?

Those are 2 inch dots so it is pretty easy to see the Leupold moved exactly as it should have considering you mounted it on a 2 MOA gun. Why anyone would use a 2 MOA gun to test a scope is beyond me.

Why don�t you send that Leupold to me for a little test. I will mount it on a rifle that shoots and we will see how it really works. I have a few ARs that can do a little better than 2 MOA with 77s.




Well then call it, which am I????

Went through the shop and found a few empty Leupold boxes. I personally tested and shot the scopes from these boxes. One of them went back to Leupold for the aforementioned problem of spitting the backlash O-ring. All the rest worked just fine.

Of course those optics had the advantage of being mounted on a decent rifle which sure seems to cut down on �scope failure�.

Quit being so polite John. You know EXACTLY why he mounted the scope on a POS rifle.

Fall through the ice in a snow storm and and come back with help 2 days later to recover a quad and rifle still attached.

Geez, you guys ask for evidence, he gives it so you call him a liar? I'd certainly have something a bit more solid before calling out a guy with a resume like that.

For the center of that group to be 1.2" above center the bottom hole would need to be actually hitting the top of the bull. It's clearly higher than that. And it's clearly to the right. I'm all for more comprehensive scope testing but when one shows such obvious flaws in an easy test, a more comprehensive test is only going to bring more bad news, not exoneration. And assuming he doesn't know what he's doing would be to assume the first two targets were purely coincidental. Targets like that don't happen by accident.

Rick, how many 30mm Tube Variable Mark 4's (or VX-3's, FX-3's with turrets on top which are so highly touted here) were in the top 20 at the SH Cup? Top 50? I fully believe you have had good luck with them, but when 90%+ of the other shooters are using something else, it is unreasonable to believe they're all doing it for nefarious reasons.

Those are the scopes he and most are talking about when referring to issues of durability and tracking repeatability. Most everyone (including Lowlight) clearly states the newer 34mm and MK6, MK8 stuff is on a whole different level. And they're certainly not the ~$300 scopes often touted here as "the ultimate."

I see what you're saying, Rick, and I use some of my MOA/MIL scopes exactly this way, but IME with rifle setups that allow me to spot my own shots, I've really enjoyed being able to use my scope both as a riflescope, and also as a reticle-equipped spotting scope. When I can spot my own shots and use my reticle to estimate necessary corrections, it makes it easier when the reticle and turrets are marked and graduated in the same units.

At least this has been my experience. YMMV.