Home Forums Birds & Dogs Hunting Dogs Smaller Hunting Labs ???

Do you know of a breeder producing smaller hunting Labs? I'm interested in dogs weighing around 50-55 lbs. and bitches around 45-50 lbs. I'm looking for athletic, biddable, intelligent dogs that are full of hunt and retrieve but that would also be pleasant house dogs. Not interested in field trial strains.

Thanks, RS

Mine is about 85 pounds now, and is a wonderful house dog.
Size doesn't matter, temperament does.

If you plan to hunt your dog you should consider a Boykin. They are amazing dogs for their size. I miss mine terribly!

Good luck on the 50-55 lb Labs. I understand what your looking for but anything under 80 lbs will probably work for you and be a lot easier to find. Those gargantuan (100+) Labs were a passing fancy for field work, or so I hope.

Check out the "Royalty British Kennels" website. They are true British Labs and fit your size criteria. They have a long waiting list but are well worth the wait. I picked mine out 1.5 years ago and had them train my dog for a year and just picked him up two weeks ago. They are in central MN.

I know how some folks feel about Milner, but he's breeding a smaller strain of labs.

http://www.duckhillkennels.com/dogs/canoelabs.php



Some people don't want a big dog. I personally don't have any desire for another big dog once my lab is gone. Unless you are hunting big open water, there are lots of dogs that can do the same job just as well as an 85lb lab/Chessie at half the size. Half the size means less food, probably more healthy, less room in a boat/blind, less room in a truck, less chit(if you have to worry about cleaning it up), etc. Boykins, Springers, American Water Spaniels, little GWPs/Drahts, canoe labs, etc. will do everything that a big dog will do until you start talking about hunting big water divers or geese, and I've seen lots of the previously mentioned breeds handle average geese just fine.

For those of us who don't "know how some folks feel about Milner", could you expand on that thought?

Thanks, RS

Some folks just think that he is blowing smoke about his British dogs(and all other British breeders too) and just think that he's more of a salesman than anything(again, just like all the others). I wouldn't have any issues with owning a dog from Milner's kennel. Everyone that I have heard about that actually had one of his dogs has nothing but great things to say about them. Dog people can get really heated over the American vs. British lines really quick like.

Ripsnort, another option is just look for a small bitch from good stock and put your name on her runt pup. There are lots of little 55lb females out there, you just have to look a little bit.

Q.A.,

Thanks for answering. Having owned a British Lab previously, and finding Robert Milner's website, I am fairly certain that his Duck Hill Kennels is where my next Lab will come from. Probably one of his "canoe Labs" if I can find the right breeding. Just what I'm looking for.

Thanks, RS

67lbs of lab, comes from no hunting stock, and is great in the field and in the house.

I don't know Milner but I do know what the confirmation standard is. Deviating from the standard is changing the genetics of the breed PERIOD. Anyone that tells you different doesn't know much about dogs, breeding, and the importance of a confirmation standard. I would stay away from him and any other breeder that doesn't understand and respect a breeds confirmation standards.

A 35lb Lab is so far below standard that you have to play with the breeding to get to that. Anyone willing to do that to a breed should be hung. Anyone willing to support a breeder like that should be caned.

I'm not trying to win Westminster. I want a dog that has the qualities that I like in the size that I want. So I guess that's just a caning I'm going to have to take.

RS

Has nothing to do with Westminster at all. There are plenty of other breeds that fit your requirement without bastardized a breed to fit your desire.

So by breeding smaller framed dogs to smaller framed dogs, you are bastardizing the breed? I would say that breeding strictly for color(I.e. silver labs, chocolates, fox red) is bastardizing the breed, but not breeding smaller frames to smaller frames if they're still put together correctly.

Hope I get my smaller Lab before the Montana Pooch Posse rides to Tennessee, strings up Milner, burns his house and kennels and kills all of his dogs.

RS

Yes breeding out of confirmation standards is bastardizing a breed. I agree (Silver, chocolates, and red)are also bad breeding practices. For one thing just breeding smaller frame dogs doesn't guarantee you will get small frame dogs.

Finding a great breeder is like finding a needle in a haystack. Of course there are a handfull of good to very good breeders for a specific breed. Then there are people that have no business being in the business. Its your money buy what you want. Hell millions of people buy puppies everyday from pets stores that buy from puppie mills. If you can live with that guilt on you have at it. Me I can't.

Remember the Brittany Spanial? It is a prime example, if you want a big running dog get a EP or ES. Thank god there are a few really good to great breeders of Frence Brittany's so that a person wanting a true Brittany can still get one.

My dog is 69 pounds at his hunting weight, about 73 here. IMO perfect. Hes a bull in he weeds and just right in the house.

Good looking dog there Passport.

Thanks He's my best bud. Love to hunt with just he and I.

+1 Throw in pointing labs with the color breeders too. Lots of great pointing breeds out there, no need to try making labs one of them. If you want a small dog, then buy a pup from a small breed. No sense in perpetuating a practice that is detrimental to a whole breed.

That's funny right there.

You are aware that each breed has a standard which equates to parameters that are set to maintain the look, conformation, and performance of the breed??? Breeding for non-breed standard colors, size, or skills pollutes the breed with individuals that will continue to deliver these non-standard qualities. If someone began breeding labs to have pointed ears like a German Shepard, for instance, would you see that as not being a problem? The standard is there to protect the breed, ignoring it does damage. Not sure why this is so hard to understand.

Well said ranger1.

My female lab weighs in at 55lbs and comes from pretty good hunting stock. At first I was a bit disappointed how small she ended up but her size has worked out well for not only our house but the overgrown cover I hunt in. What she lacks in size she more then makes up for with an incredible nose and desire to get after birds.



Resting near the wood stove after a day of Grouse hunting


as a pup

Someone earlier in this post mentioned a Boykin. I would second that and wouldn't think twice. I used to have one and he was a great dog. Loved water, was extremely affectionate, and always wanted to please you in his tasks.

I now have a black lab. He's also a great dog, but dammm if he doesn't take up a lot of space when you have to go somewhere. My lab isn't huge for labs...roughly 85 pounds. Compare that to the Boykin who weighed 47.

My lab, while a fetching machine (but is gun shy) is not a hunting dog. He weighs in at a svelt 65 pounds. Both of his parents are an honest 80+ ounds SOLID muscle.

Huntinaz (Jake) has his sister she is maybe 45 pounds or so?? Tiny female chocolate.

My male goes right around 60# in hunting trim without an ounce of fat. His mom is right around 50-55#'s. Absolutely bred true to breed and from some of the best bloodlines in the US. They are out there but most of the folks who are super anal on breeding and have the titles to prove it waiting lists and the pups go $1-2k

Well you lab purists can have them however you want them...I'm sticking with my spaniels for awhile If I venture away from spaniels again, it'll probably be for a bearded faced dog.

I've had Labs for some time now. Started with a great male out of Super Chief's line and I've kept it going for 3 generations. Last breeding was a female I had with a dog from Ducks Unlimited Dog of the Year's litter; Super Tanker line

Two of the males in my litter went 100 pounds plus while the females were all in the 55# range. I kept a female that was the litter's bully.





As you can see, the smaller Labs can take down a 6X6 and completely devour it down to the femurs.

Hahaha...see guys, little dogs kick ass. Plain and simple.

I think so.

I've hunted both. The dog above is lightning on retrieves and has all day stamina

That is a dog that is true to confirmation standard. Not a 35 to 45 pound Lab. Big difference.

rcamuglia,

That is indeed a fine looking Lab. Unfortunately, she came from a litter that produced 100 lb. males and so carries genes that are prone to produce animals that are far out of the confirmation standard for this breed.

Had he been a responsible breeder (and decent human being), the villan who commited such a crime against the breed would have killed the entire litter and the sire and dam. He would have caned anyone who expressed interest in the pups, burned his house and kennels and then, after writing a letter of apology to the world, hung himself.

RS

What do you think about the 100lb dogs in that same litter then?

Breeding animals, horses, dogs, whatever, requires that one behave responsibly. This is particularly true when we speak of registered animals. I'm thinking that this is going to be a shocker for you, but the registry and accompanying standards are there to preserve the breed. Breeding mini-labs, silver labs, pointing labs, etc. and then registering them, pollutes the breed with individuals that carry traits that are not within the standards of the breed. When/if those individuals are irresponsibly bred and the offspring are registered, the breed slides further down the slope of destruction. It has happened to many different breeds, it will likely happen to labs, and it's a shame. Guys like you are second only to the irresponsible breeders in creating the problem (color breeders, no genetic testing, no hip/eye/elbow check, no hunting skill, etc.). Buy a nice springer if you want a small retriever/flusher. If you want a larger dog, then by all means, buy a lab!!

Might not be the best gun dog around, but he LOVED watching me canoe the head on this coyote...

Folks seem really down on breeders breeding smaller labs, but no problems with the 100 pounders? From the AKC:



If my math is correct, 100lbs is 20lbs over 80lbs. If that's acceptable, then 45lbs for a dog(or 35lbs for a bitch) should be also be acceptable to those same people. I'd much rather a dog be under a breed standard than over. An over-sized dog is going to have more health issues than a smaller one 99% of the time.

Hey Einstein, have you not noticed the split in bench dogs vs. field dogs that is already in existance in labs(as well almost every other field dog)?

I never once said that I would buy a canoe lab, and damn sure wouldn't buy a silver labd, etc. My argument this whole time is why chastise a guy who is breeding two dogs a little under breed standard, but not the guy who is breeding a 110lb dog to an 80lb bitch? Like I said, I'm not a lab guy to begin with, so y'all can have them however you want them. I'll stick to real dogs

Just to ease your mind a bit, my Springer came from someone who has health certs, pure UK hunting stock, etc. But I'm willing to bet that she's not in AKC "breed standard", because an AKC springer and a field springer are two different dogs.

im no expert when it comes to dogs, but i find this argument interesting.i run about 40 dogs mostly english pointers for quail, in south tex. i have 7 labs we use to retrieve, both dove and quial, im not intrested in breed standards, im intrested in a dog that will work.we have found over the last 50 yrs of hunting birds in rough country and sometimes hot temps, that the smaller labs do a better job as they dont heat up as bad as the bigger dogs, and cool down faster,my dogs pick a lot of doves out of water,and ducks out of coastal wet lands off padre island, mostly mud flats. and i always take a couple of dogs up north with me in the fall to hunt ring necks and pin tails, i have never felt i didnt have enough dog, with a 45# to 50# lab. breed standards are set by commites,the old saying goes build a horse by commite( ms) and it will look like a camel and ride like one. use what works for you no matter what breed or type.rio7

I would have to say that most 100 pound Labradors are overweight because of their owners feeding/exercise practices. Fed properly, I'd bet they'd fall within the standard.

Good post RIO7. Loved duck hunting down on the coast the few times I got a chance to.

The dog I posted the picture of is my current hunting partner. She is the final product of the Pedigrees below.

I have been an avid trainer. She is whistle trained and handles on signal. Blinds and multiples are no problem and one hell of a nose.












Many who have some knowledge may realize from the dogs in the Pedigree what kind of lineage I'm talking about. I'm ready to have a litter.

Retreiver Hall of Fame Dogs

If I was a lab guy, I'd take a pup from her regardless of standards.

I am starting the clearances on my Trap.
Friday, he gets his eyes cerf'd as a start.
Purebred dogs should be held to standards of the breed.
Breeding for color,size, etc, causes deviations and starts a bad genetic trait.
How long, if ever could it be bred back out to set the standards back?
Anyone who breeds their dog should get them check so no defects such as eic are passed along.
You want a lab, deal with their siz. If there is another breed that suits your needs, and is the size you want, get that one.

Since I have my own thread about my lab, I didn't want to derail this one, but here is my dogs pedigree.
Click on the names and see how many in his bloodline are in the retriever hall of fame. Keep going back and his blood can be traced back to the mid 1800's, in England.
All bred for their hunting, and gaminess to play the doggie games.
http://huntinglabpedigree.com/pedigree.asp?id=67581

when we are hunting hard by that i mean daylight till noon then from 3:pm till dark every day,and we are in the birds working our butts off, i dont ever remember getting a big covey rise and whipping my dogs papers out, and hollering look out birds my dogs are badass dogs!!!! we just shoot and expect our dogs to do there jobs.dogs are just like horses ,you cant ride their papers. but you can brag about their breeding.rio7 all this is said with a smile!

It isn't about the paper. Its about the blood to do and look like a breed should.

Great dog Splatter...

Are you field trialing him?

No. I bought him as my buddy and hunting companion. He has his junior hunter title in akc, and this weekend, I am running him in 2 ukc seasoned tests.
Ill run him again the end of October in akc senior.
When we title senior/seasoned, we're done.
The games are games, everything a dog knows to pass senior/seasoned will make him an awesome hunting dog.
I have a buddy, not a robot machine.
Check my thread out below this one. You'll see I have a faithful companion for life.
Im just not into ft's. I just like to hunt, shoot birds, and watch a dog do what it was bred to do.

Bingo!

I have the same feeling for oversized dogs as I do under. I am sorry you don't have an understanding of proper breeding and the importance of confirmation standards, Quack! By any chance is your name Robert Budnik?

I don't have a clue who that is, so no.

I have a great understanding of conformation(if you're going to try to be an ass, at least check your spelling). I also know that a dog that is put together properly is put together properly, whether it's 45lbs or 95lbs. There's a big difference in actual conformation and a size standard. Of course, you're too caught up in what the AKC says a dog should look like to understand that I'll take a well put together dog from a strong hunting background that might be a hair undersized and never loose a bit of sleep at night. Again, I don't give two hoots about most labs, and they are the ones with the majority of "breed standard" issues, so no worries about me starting my own genetic strain of labs.

Let's not get started on show dogs vs field lines.
Show labs sure have ruined the breed in general.
Just look at them compared to a real working bred one.

Exactly. That's why I don't pay much attention to the AKC. Springers, Setters, and Goldens are the perfect examples. My Springer and what the AKC thinks is a springer are two completely different dogs. Same with a field golden compared to an "AKC" golden, just not quite as extreme. The AQHA has the same issues as the AKC.

Who did you get Trap from Splatter?

A lady named Lee Salmon. She owns Wind River Labs out of Washington state.
Traps dad is no longer with us.
http://www.windriverlabs.com/
She answers the phone or text messages anytime I call.
I ccouldn't ask for a better dog she matched me up with.
She got to know me and switched dogs up from what I was gonna buy to Trap based on her knowing her dogs and the use and personality of the customer.
Ill give her a 10 out of 10!

SPLATTERMATIC, its clear to me you have a nice dog and a good hunting partner, and im happy for you. dont get hug up on papers and breed standard,enjoy your dog, rio7

Believe me..... Im not hung up on those things.
I love my dog no matter what.

i know your feeling i have a 3 yr old female, that has 2 hunting seasons under her belt,she will pick everything that hits the ground or water, can swim like a beaver, find quail in very heavy brush, will pick up and return doves all day, also will track a wounded deer, and is great hunting predators.i have had bobcats 10 yrds away and they have a stareing contest she wont move until i shoot, same on coyotes,had a hell of a time keeping her from going after pigs the first year but shes over that now. when we have hunters she sits at the bar on a stool and visits with everyone then lays under the dining room table during supper. she a great pal and goes everywhere i go, and she makes me laugh.rio7