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#790676 - 05/05/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
340mag Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 2340
FOR ELK,I VASTLY prefer the over thirty caliber cartridges throwing at least a 225 grs and I prefer the 250-270 grain weights in the 338-358 and 375 calibers launched at a minimum of 2300fps. thats a preferance gained after watching close to a hundred dead ELK dressed out over 35 plus years in several states and having hunted in several larger ELK camps (lets say IM an OBSESSED ELK HUNTER)and having looked at the internal damaged carefully. now that being said and having hunted with guys over the years carrying 25/06 and 257 wby rifles on several occasions and having one guys dad carry a 257 roberts for many years I can honestly tell you that the guy BEHIND the rifle has a great deal to do with what works well!
will a 257 roberts, or 25/06 , KILL ELK? HELL YES!, in the hands of an excellent shot its fully up to the task under most conditions if premium bullets are used. and the range is not excessive. but it does not have the same effect on impact, it doesn,t penetrate as deeply from less than ideal angles, and it won,t leave the same wound path thru an ELK.
now why would you put yourself under a handicap, that will limit your range, limit your potential choice of shot angles , when a differant sellection that won,t have those potential problems, is available. like the others Id suggest a 270 win as a more reasonable minimum
I started out with a 30/06, it killed ELK just fine but it had no where near the instant effect on impact the 338-358-375 calibers had, nor did it tend to leave exit wounds on raking angles

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#790677 - 05/06/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
John_G Online   shocked
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 1430
Loc: B.C., Canada
I love reading these types of threads but I have a hard time chiming in because I feel that it's pretty hard to draw the line for someone else. There is no doubt that a .257 will kill an elk; just put a well-constructed bullet in the right place and the animal will die. The problem lies in the nature of the hunter himself. How good a shot are you? What are your personal limits on shots that you'd take/pass up? One of my sons is very fussy, and refuses to shoot at animals unless they are within 200 yards and standing broadside. Second, the kid (well, he's 21 now) is a helluva shot, even offhand. With him, I know I'd feel comfortable seeing him shoot at an elk with just about anything greater than a .22 LR. He prefers to use his .270 and sometimes he uses one of our .308's, and they are more than enough for the task, given his abilities and preferences.

Everyone has to draw the line somewhere, and they should base that decision on a knowledge of the terrain they'll hunt and their abilities/habits - and also what makes them feel confident. You've had some input here from some very experienced hunters who have shot a lot more elk than I have (allen, Brad, Mark, etc.) and they have given you some different answers. The thing is, they're all correct!

For my personal use, I draw the line at .27 caliber. I'm an OK shot but nothing special. My limit is 300 yards, and then the rest has to be solid. I'll take a quartering (45 degree) shot but that's the sharpest angle I'll attempt. I'd shoot an elk with a 6mm, .25, or a 6.5 if the opportunity arose, but I wouldn't intentionally choose those calibers if I was heading out after an elk. I prefer to use the .30-06, as that seems to suit me just fine, and I have never had an elk go very far after being hit with one.

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#790678 - 05/07/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Mauser96 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1451
I've noticed for the past couple years that you capitalize ELK all the time.

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#790679 - 05/07/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
7 STW Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 12133
You know guy's the old record book polor bear was killed with a 270 Win and a factory 130 gr broze point.I wouldn't pick a 25 cal myself but with proper shot placement and bullet construction it will work.Just won't have the knock-down power as a larger diameter bullet.The bigger the bullet the more energy is deposited.
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#790680 - 05/07/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Pete_in_Idaho Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/23/03
Posts: 362
Yes, and to lend further insult the 130 bronze- point was fired from a Rem. M760 pump. Now that's my idea of a real polar bear rilfe.

I think the chap's name was Tom Bolack, then govenor of N.Mexico. Proably a Democrat.

Love those old Outdoor Lifes! Pedro

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#790681 - 05/07/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
AggieDog Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 3781
Loc: Northern California
That's it, I'm putting my 25-06AI up for sale, along with the Roy....................

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#790682 - 05/07/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Mauser96 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/02/03
Posts: 1451
Quote:

You know guy's the old record book polor bear was killed with a 270 Win and a factory 130 gr broze point.I wouldn't pick a 25 cal myself but with proper shot placement and bullet construction it will work.Just won't have the knock-down power as a larger diameter bullet.The bigger the bullet the more energy is deposited.




A gun that was "too small" with a bullet that was "not only standard, but fast expanding-not deep penetrating"


Maybe shot placement DOES work after all.

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#790683 - 05/07/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
mowzer Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 958
Loc: Seattle,WA
The smallest cartrdge I have ever killed elk with was the 270WSM but it was only 50 yards away and a bang flop neck shot with 140 grain Failsafe which penciled through the neck. It was a smallish cow too. I had about 3 seconds to get off the shot. My brother shot a larger cow with same cartridge and we had to track it for several miles even though it was terminally wounded in the vitals. The next year (this year) we traded those rifles in for 30-06's. And we will be shooting 180 grain Nosler Partitions, or possibly 168 TXS. I agree that bullet diameter is meaningfull. Personally, I now put my minium at 30-06. But I have absolutely nothing against those that select smaller, less capable cartridges as thats a personal choice we are all entitled to. I feel that it best to be equipped with something that will perform with less than ideal shot positioning with bone breaking capacity. Ideally, my personal favorite is the 338 WM for elk. Every one I have shot with it went nowhere fast. The shock that cartridge provides is devastating even compared to the 30-06. Right now my philosophy is that I only have time to get real competent with one rifle, so I've elected the 30-06 for both deer and elk and anything else I will hunt. I believe in developing intimacy with your rifle no matter what cartridge you select. I will say that in my elk hunting life I have had very few shots like on TV where they wait and wait for just the right moment for that easy broadside shot right behind the shoulder. My experience is that the window of opportunity has always closed very fast and one needs to be prepared for fast decision making and knowing where to place shots at different angles......and having a gun and shooter that can pull it off without a hitch. The only shots I have ever passed on were either too far away (rare) or not enough time in the clear, or lastly elk going straight away with only butt showing

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#790684 - 05/08/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Lee24 Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 7259
Loc: Southern California
Suppose you have the perfect shot, and make the perfect shot, but in the 1/4 second it takes your bullet to arrive, the elk takes a slight step? You hit 4 inches further back, and nick a leg bone on the way in, richocheting your bullet, with 30% of its weight gone, backwards and missing the lungs. Your elk runs off with no blood trail to become bear fat.

A .338, .45-70, or .300 magnum would have just broken the leg on the way in and dropped the elk in its tracks.

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#790685 - 05/08/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
magnumb Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 5216
If that was the only caliber I owned, it would be perfect. If it was the largest caliber I owned, it would do an outstanding job (given proper bullet and placement..... always). If I had a larger caliber (with a heavier bullet exhibiting more energy up to 300 yards even though it also has a bit less velocity) that I felt comfortable shooting, I would take that instead.

Sometimes bigger is better (all other factors being maximized).

Good luck on your choice. I have a Sako 25-06 and love it. Everything up to large deer expire, big time. My larger calibers are dedicated to elk/moose and potentially, uninvited "nasty" critters.


Edited by magnumb (05/08/06)

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#790686 - 05/09/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Bill.338 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/19/01
Posts: 321
Loc: Lafayette.Indiana
Quote:

Hunterbug,

I believe the 25 06 will do the job quartering away at 300 yards...but I'd much rather be a good enough hunter to get with in 100 yards myself-out to 250+ yards it kind of becomes a shoot instead of a hunt, no?




Yes, but if you get a shot at a bull elk on a self-guided hunt on public land you'd better take it. Most of the time a shot opportunity lasts only a couple of seconds and getting closer isn't possible. Also if you take a quartering away shot at an elk the bullet will have to penetrate at least two feet through a wet bale of hay to reach the heart/lungs.

I usually hunt with a muzzleloader but when I hunt with a rifle I take a .338WM and shoot 225gr SAFs.

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#790687 - 05/10/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
leomort Online   content
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/04/02
Posts: 1696
Loc: Indiana
In Pennsylvania the minimum require caliber for Elk huning is a "caliber of at least .277" with minimum bullet weight of 130gr"

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#790688 - 05/10/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Greenhorn Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 1996
25-06 will work fine.

It's always funny how a simple question can be argued for weeks on end, pages and pages of BS, about something that is of such minor importance when it comes to hunting and killing an elk.

I think I started a thread like this just for [bleep] and giggles a few years ago.

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#790689 - 06/01/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
721_tomahawk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/22/04
Posts: 3767
Loc: south central Kansas
AMEN Greenie!! 721

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#790690 - 06/01/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Coyote_Hunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 8593
Loc: 6491 Feet Above Sea Level

Greenhorn –

The original poster has never hunted elk and goes by “lubbockdave”. My guess is that for him hunting elk means a lengthy trip and considerable expenses, including out-of-state licenses and possibly even a guide. A .25-06 is definitely NOT what I would recommend in such circumstances – not when so may more appropriate cartridges are available.

Is the choice of cartridge really “of such minor importance when it comes to hunting and killing an elk”? Granted, there are many more important issues in the world at large or even in the limited context of hunting and killing elk – like finding one. But once one is found, it’s nice to have a rifle in hand that will put it on the ground with authority under a wide variety of circumstances.

Many people hunt elk with a .243 Win, but is it really the best cartridge for the task? I think you would agree that it is not and that, for the same reasons, neither is a .25.
_________________________
Coyote Hunter - NRA Life, Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

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#790691 - 06/02/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Honcz Offline
Member

Registered: 01/16/06
Posts: 210
Loc: SW Montana
Might as well chime in here. A .25-06 is plenty enough as long as you know how to shoot it. I'd stick with a premium bullet i.e. Barnes TSX, Partition, TBBC.

I'm way more concerned with bullet placement.

I also know some Montana boys who hunt elk with .243, .25-06 etc. The argument that someone from out of state that has spent lot's of money, etc should shoot a bigger gun is pretty specious. Most of the locals I hunt with won't take any chances that they'll get another opportunity(excepting trophy hunter types). The vast majority are like me and are looking to fill the freezer with a nice cow or raghorn. I wouldn't turn my nose up at a big bull but usually only see them in districts where it can be very tough to draw.

Anyhow, if a .25-06 is enough gun for these guys I can't see why some one from out of state can't do the same. Just be sure you can hit a dinner plate sized target 9 out of ten times at a given range whether you are on a rest or shooting off hand. If you can't do that then you don't have any business shooting at elk either at that range. Practice, practice, practice.

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#790692 - 06/02/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
AggieDog Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 3781
Loc: Northern California
I wonder if a guide would rather you have a 25-06 with a TSX in it that you shoot very well, with no flenching, or yiou be in camp with a 300 win mag that scares the bejesus out of you?

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#790693 - 06/02/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
340mag Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 2340
one of the guys I hunt ELK with occasionally (GEORGE) has and uses a 257 roberts on ELK loaded with SPEER BULLETS 25CAL 115 GR TROPHY BONDED BEAR CLAW BULLETs most of the time, in his BLR.(I know I load his ammo) it KILLS ELK just fine, but it seldom puts them down at the bullet impact point/location.
theres a big differance between having the ability to deliver a MORTAL WOUND that will soon drop the animal and having the ability to both deliver that MORTAL WOUND and almost instantly shut down the games ability to travel.
that differance is due in most cases to the EXTENT and DEPTH of the DAMAGE that results.
yes shot placement is critical, but having the ability to reach the vitals from almost any angle and at reasonable ranges, under almost all conditions and inflicting damage to a larger area tends to give you a significant advantage, that advantage is the result, of physics,physical factors that favor larger/heavier bullets and more energy on the target than a 257 calibers 115-120 grain bullets deliver.
can you kill ELK with a 257 roberts SURE,IVE SEEN it done several times, once ive even seen an ELK drop within a few feet of the bullets impact, but the differance in the internal damage when dressing out those ELK would make me suggest a larger calibers a better chooice in most hunters hands.
like some others have mentioned, a .277 cal/150 grain bullet is a more senceable MINIMUM, and a 30 cal/165 or larger is even better if you can learn to handle the recoil levels.
what this discussion is really about is the DIRECTION ELK run and REACTION of ELK after being hit, I seriously doubt we would be having this discussion if WOUNDED ELK that could still remain mobile tended to STOMP& GORE hunters untill they resembled bloody hamburger, but because they tend to run AWAY and die with no potential danger to the shooter it appears, its just not as important to some hunters that they get a CLEAN/FAST KILL

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#790694 - 06/02/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Still this is funny. Guys like to argue about what just ain't enough gun and how to have a rifle that just drops them in their tracks. Time is better spent breaking in your boots.

And yes, I once killed a bull elk with a 25-06. They go down hard and die fast if you hit them right. They can run off with a poorly placed shot from a magnum also. Try bowhunting, then you'll appreciate the effectiveness of a centerfire like the 25-06.

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#790695 - 06/02/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Greenhorn Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 1996
Elk can run off with a poorly placed shot from a magnum.

After bowhunting a bit, most hunters would appreciate the effectiveness of a centerfire rifle like the 25-06.

Time is better spent breaking in your boots instead of worrying if you have a big enough rifle.

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#790696 - 06/02/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
340mag Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/12/03
Posts: 2340
"Elk can run off with a poorly placed shot from a magnum"

VERY TRUE! but they will run just as far or further "with a poorly placed shot" from any LOWER POWER CARTRIDGEs so whats the point!
accuracy in shot placement and a good understanding of the games anatomy are mandatory, to get good results.. I see a much higher percentage of well hit ELK run a short distance when hit with the smaller calibers than I see of those hit with the heavier calibers, and let me point out its NOT just MAGNUMS that hold the advantage here, a quality 225-250 grain bullet from a 338/06 or 35 whelen OR EVEN A 358 WIN thats basically a necked up 308 win, does a remarkably effective job on ELK, as will a 350-420grain 45/70 bullets when placed correctly

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#790697 - 06/02/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
Coyote_Hunter Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 02/07/04
Posts: 8593
Loc: 6491 Feet Above Sea Level
Quote:

I wonder if a guide would rather you have a 25-06 with a TSX in it that you shoot very well, with no flenching, or yiou be in camp with a 300 win mag that scares the bejesus out of you?




Why is it that people who advocate smaller cartridges always make the assumption that people are so scared of bigger calibers that they can’t shoot them well? Or even well enough?

I suspect most guides would prefer a customer show up at elk camp with a rifle they shoot well, and would be happier if that rifle is a .270 or 7mm or .308 or .30-06 or .338-06 or .358 or 35 Whelen or a number of other cartridges than a .25.

My point has never been that a .25 won’t work, just that there are better choices.
_________________________
Coyote Hunter - NRA Life, Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!

No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.

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#790698 - 06/02/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
AggieDog Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 3781
Loc: Northern California
Ah crips Hunter, I'm just stirring the pot to see what surfaces.........LOL

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#790699 - 06/03/06 Re: 25 06, or even 257 roberts on elk?
WildernessHunter Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/18/06
Posts: 487
Loc: Colorado
The 25's are very decent Elk rounds....300 yards and in.

But, here in the West I prefer a gun that has the ability to reach out a bit farther. I don't want those shots, but I will not turn down a 450 yard shot (a clean, safe shot), on a 7x7 if there is absolutely no way to get closer. I practice shots out to 500 yards, so I feel comfortable hitting vitals on an Elk.
_________________________
Life is Good.... One trip a week to the range and a family that loves to shoot and hunt. John

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