Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Is it just me? Am I the only one?

Kenneth,

Years ago I had a Savage .223 heavy 26"barrel with a Weaver 6-24 scope. It would regularly put ten shots in 7/16" at 100. A friend of mine purchased a Remington Varmint 26" heavy barrel and put a decent scope on it. I worked up a load as best I could and could only get five shot groups of 3/4". He tried and duplicated my effort. He asked what I would do. "I would sell it and get a Savage," I advised him. He did.

He wanted me to break it by firing and cleaning for several shots. When I arrived at the range I realized I forgot the cleaning rod. There was no way I was going to leave without firing it. I fired three rounds from my accurate stuff: 3/8" at 100 yards. He fired five and they measured .4" at 100.

I believe if Savage still makes that heavy barrel .223 you could get a real life 1/2" rifle.

Kenneth,

If you "don't/won't go into runout and other such brainfreeze procedures" then you're absolutely correct not to keep trying to shoot sub-inch groups consistently, because you never well.

The good news is that you don't have to do all that to kill deer, even at 300-400 yards. In fact rifles that will barely put five shots in TWO inches at 100 yards will kill deer at 300 or even 400.

Staying sighted in is my first concern for a hunting rifle.

I record were the first shot hits at the normal range that rifle is sighted for.

Of course I usually fire groups and it's the primary demand of a target rifle where we get sighters.

Here is a target that my 243 Kimber Montana made with two shots at 200 yds with a 58gr VMax handload.

Shooters often lose sight of the fundamental truth that there is natural variation in group size. If you have absolutely identical cartridges, perfect wind conditions, and your shooting technique is absolutely reproducible, you will still get natural variation in group sizes. If you shoot enough groups, the worst sewer pipe piece of junk gun you can find will occasionally (rarely?) shoot a 1/2" group at 100 yards.

The illusion is that 1/2" is the gun's natural state, and that the 4" groups are a result of shooter error or ammunition issues. So the tendency of some is to claim the best group their gun ever produced is the firearm's performance, attributing the rest of the groups to some change in the process.

I have a 223 Rem that reliably produces 5/8" five-shot groups, give or take a little. I have a 6.5x55 and a 30-06 that reliably do 3/4" five-shot groups, give or take a little. I count those as the exceptions in my collection. My bolt action 30-30 and my lever action 357 do about 2" five-shot groups. That is abundantly accurate for any practical use. They are fun to shoot. And they will peg a jackrabbit at 100 yards.

All that said, modern manufacturing methods produce better rifles than we had 30-40 years ago. I think true 1" guns are a lot more common than they used to be.

Now for those who think they can tune a load in .1 grain steps and find a magic solution, think about this: In 30-06 size cartridges, with some powders, 30 F is about the same as a full grain of powder. If you're not controlling your barrel temperature within 3 F, then a change of .1 grain of powder will be lost in the variation. Often, people think they have found the perfect solution when in fact they just shot a lucky group.

Good suggestion. I've even seen a few stevens 200's shoot that well.

Dink, I think all of us feel that way about shooting 5 (or 10) shot groups. You don't know how hard it was to keep it together on this group I fired with my fwt 30-06:



My friend (being the dik he is) told me "it isn't a group unless it's 5 shots". He was watching thru my spotting scope as I fired and I know he was wanting my last 2 shots to fall out of the group big time, as he was having troubles (accuracy issues) with his new Winchester model 70 Extreme Weather 300 wsm (shooting 3" groups at the time). The way I see it is we need to be the weak link in our rifles ability to shoot well. However, it's up to us to minimize certain variables that could create problems in accuracy. We have control over:

1. Proper bedding
2. Properly worked up loads, this also means concentric loads.
3. Properly mounted quality optics
4. Properly tuned trigger
5. Rests, IE: sandbags etc..
6. Setting up wind flags

I find a lot of wisdom here. I'd call myself a hunter who loves rifles rather than a target shooter. Of course I like my rifles to be as accurate as possible, and some are pretty darned accurate. But not all are tack-drivers, at least in my hands.

For my evaluations, I've settled on shooting seven shots on one target, with barrel cooling after no more than three shots. When that group is less than two inches, I've decided I'm ready to go hunting. I have some that will do a little better than one inch, but most don't.

Last week I was working on loads for my 375 H&H. A load of 300 grain Swift A-Frames went into 2.02" for seven shots. Just for grins, I numbered the bullet holes and measured the 35 different possible three-shot groups. The smallest was .64", the average was 1.37", and the median was 1.34".

A few days later, a load of 300 grain Barnes TSX's put seven shots into 1.81". I've spent a fair bit of time with this rifle, and am ready to call this my hunting load. (I'm using a 3x20 Leupold scope with a heavy duplex. Though I am using an appropriate target, I suspect I could shave some fractions of an inch off with more magnification and a finer reticle.) For that matter, I wouldn't hesitate to hunt with the load with the Swifts. I know some here would continue the search for something better.

You are far from the only one, heck, I can take a known accurate rifle of mine out and shoot terrible groups on any given day.

Getting in a hurry, not having your mind right, to much stress, coffee or snuff raising your pulse all can chitcan a group, plus the wind, it's a given factor that can change you from a champ to a chump in one shot.

Gunner

Do you even roll your loaded rounds across a flat surface to see if your bullets wobble? If you don't know how concentric your ammo is, how do you know you are getting repeatably straight ammo? If you aren't getting repeatably straight ammo your occasional 1/2" groups are mere luck.

Without a chrono, how do you know how consistent your loads are from one shot to the next?

On one hand you complain that you can't get consistency in your shots...on the next you say that you refuse to take the steps necessary to ensure consistency in your groups because that is too much gear and not fun. I would advise you choose which is fun...toting less to the range or shooting small groups.



There is probably a lot of truth in that. I think you would be surprised what most factory rifles can do nowadays when they are fed concentric ammo.

I thought I was a pretty decent handloader but struggled with some of your issues..."how is it I can't get repeatable accuracy? I sorted my cases by weight...I sorted my bullets by weight...what gives???" Then I bought a runout guage, a bullet comparator and a chronograph.

If you want consistency, you have to nitpick the details.

If you just want to kill stuff, load up a bunch of your ammo, sight in and bang steel--you will have much more fun if you don't sweat the groups.

I will reload as long as I can...

I love it

Snake

Me too snake...You know you are doing something right when you can take a cheap azz bullet like the 180gr. Win powerpoint or hornady interlock and make it shoot good groups religiously. My friend that is just getting into reloading, told me he needed to test all this expensive as hell factory ammo in his 300 wsm EW and duplicate the one that shoots the best. I told him, "what you need to do is learn how to make any cheap azz bullet shoot in your rifle"!! He looked at the $60.00/ box of ammo he had in his hands and said, "oh ..." .

one of the most common mistakes I have seen over the years.

TRYING TO HELP.

Yessir, us mere mortals need all the help we can get.

Gunner

Some days I shoot well, some days I don't. It usually has more to do with me than the rifle or load. Tired, rushed, distracted, too much caffeine, or whatever. I reload so I can shoot more, not so I can try to make my $500 guns into benchrest competitors. Somedays I shoot itty bitty groups and know my rifle and loads are capable.

When shooting groups from field positions at varying distances, I'm happy to keep all shots within 3 inches of point of aim. I figure if I, the gun, and load can do that every time then I don't have to worry when it comes to hunting.

I also think I'm more the reason for the size of the groups than the rifle. I really could care less about "half moa all day long" rifles. I look at pictures of some of the groups posted here and I really think they are all legitimate. Some are legitimately as small as represented and others are legitimate baloney . I won't say which I think are which, because I don't know.

The only group that interests me is one fired from the first shot from a cold barrel. Every time you go to the range get out this target and shoot your first shot into it. Then put it up till the next time you hit the range and repeat.

An honest moa is plenty enough for me. I have every confidence it is minute of deer and I won't blame anything but me if I miss.

I put what I consider to be a lot of care into the load, and have learned to not continually fiddle with it.

The quality of the rest is too critical and the condition of the shooter varies a lot. Are you tired, in a grumpy mood, mad at somebody, have a headache, bad back...etc. The way you feel is paramount (at lest for me) if I want to shoot tiny groups. I have, but I don't keep the target for bragging rights. Good solid rest and better technique are important too. I sight in as best I can and go bang steel or rocks.

Denton pointed out statistical variation in group size, and I for one believe him.

First thing I need to do if I decide to strive for tiny groups is build myself a better rest . I usually use a couple of hay bales.

Weather seems to be a huge factor in load development for me. Too hot, too windy, too humid, slight rain all effect my groups. Example I have had several great groups with a Remington 700 ADL shooting 1 moa or better only to open up to 2 1/2 to 3 inches? It happens. I shot a barnes TTSX 168 that touched 3 together at 100 yards. Took that load back out and none even came close to that? Fluke, luck? What I don't know. It had the potential to shoot that well on day now closer to 1 1/2 inches at 100 still plenty to kill game but a mindphuck for sure!

Count me in this club too.

Great subject and the responses show the realities of shooting. You may notice that no one posts a picture of their lousy groups. Other than extreme benchrest setups my experience has been the same as others. Some days I amaze myself but doing it two or three trips to the range with the same everything is a whole nother story.

ned,

At the bottom of page two on this thread is posted results from the same components on different days. I settled on the Federal 215 primer because it was the most consistent and its worst group was 1 1/32" during the six days of testing.

Some great thoughts and lots of knowledge/common sense here guys. Interesting as well!

Josh