Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Is it just me? Am I the only one?

Ring,

Maybe I missed your point and most certainly no offense intended. I have several heavy barrel .223's that can shoot under .4 all day every day.

It's those factory sporter barrel '06 and .270 types that seem to shoot lights out one day and perhaps 1 to 1.5 inches another day for me. ( I doubt it's the rifle's fault )

Not an issue for deer or larger hunting of course as the old hit the pie plate at 100 yards is a dead deer holds true.

ned

To be frank after 35 years I reload because I have all this stuff and its paid for so might as well use it up. As far as shooting groups I am mostly interested in verifying point of impact, 3shot groups are plenty as I have never had a deer stand around for more than two . Finally after all this time as little as I get to shoot , as jittery as I am from having the he-- pestered out of me for 35 years at work and as poor as my vision has become I am happy with a nicely centered 1 1/2 inch group from a stock rifle.

Regarding 3 or 5 shot groups, It's the confidence of repeat-ability that 5 shot groups bring,

If this is simply about killing deer, then why fire even the 2nd shot to determine group size, the first shot simply has to hit a 12 inch plate ( deer vitals) at 100 yards,

So now 12 MOA is acceptable?

This is great news, as I can do 12 MOA all day every day.

The point of the post at the bottom of page two is agreeing
with what you are saying. With the primer I chose the rifle fired groups from 3/8" to 1 1/32" over the six days of testing.

Roger that, thank you sir.

Exactly.

The fact that you probably wouldn't shoot three times at a deer is irrelevant.

The question is not where three bullets land. The question is how well three bullets predict the performance of the firearm over the long term. The answer is, not very well.

The average of three five-shot groups is a decently precise indicator of long term performance. A single three shot group, not so much.

I have never gotten hung up on the notion of 3 shot, or 5 shot, or 10 shot groups as being most reliable indicators of accuracy...reason being that in the course and conduct of working up loads for a hunting rifle l dont get married to a specific number. At some point l will shoot them all.

Besides if l shoot 12 three shot groups have l not shot 3 ten shot groups and two three shot groups? What have l proved?

It is good to learn that 5 shot groups are ok; that 10 shots is better, and that 3 are useless....but if l fire 50-60 3 shot groups at 300 plus yards and the rifle performs v err ry much the same then l would like to know how l am still statistically challenged.

Just my own way but FWIW here is what l do......with a new rifle and load l will shoot a series og 3-5 shot groups at 100 yards while also getting zero. If the rifle seems to do an inch or under l know that some days it might do .5 or .6 or 3/4" sometimes..in any event the objective is to get away from 100 yards ASAP because group sqeezing at 100 yards is an utter waste of time and is boring.

I then go to 300-400 yards....l know after 40 years of doing it that with a 4-6x scope l seem to hold about 1moa or maybe a bit more over a pack and prone. Over tome and several sessions l expect to see groups ranging a bit over and under one moa if the rifle is good and l am holding consistently.

Sometimes a group will go out to 2 moa...l shoot again and again yo see if this was me or the load or the rifle or whatever.

Point being 100 yard groups dont tell you much unless they are really bad...get off the bags and find out what the rifle and load do in your hands and at distance.

And shooting at longer ranges is often where you'll discover those half-inch 3-shot groups at 100 yards don't indicate much.

If you're not shooting at deer over 300 it doesn't really matter, though, since few hunters complain if their bullet landed a couple of inches away from where it was theoretically aimed.

Of course, a lot of hunters never shoot their rifle at a target beyond 100 yards, then go hunting and shoot at 400+ anyway. Sometimes they kill game and sometimes they don't. In reality a rifle that averages 1-1/2", 3-shot groups at 100 yards is USUALLY perfectly capable of killing deer at 400 yards. Shooting more rounds in 100-yard groups, or actually shooting at long range, tends to eliminate surprises.

A magazine once assigned me to test-shoot some new ammo advertised as flatter-shooting and more accurate. I shot .270 Winchester, 7mm Rem. Magnum and .30-06 at 100 yards from three very accurate rifles, and 3-shot groups were all under an inch. At 400 two of the rifle/ammo combos shot into 4-5" but the other shot into 10-12"--all three-shot groups.

Kenneth- I think you should invest in a chrony. Its a great tool in helping fine tune loads and lets you know a lot about whats going on with your loads. I know that since buying one Ive learned things such as a simple primer change or change in seating depth can have huge advantages in things like ES and SD.

If you literally mean a Shooting Chrony, they're next to useless for extreme spread or standard deviation, for two reasons: The light sensors are too close together for shot-to-shot variations to mean much, and light conditions can make readings vary considerably as well.

Even with a very good chronograph standard deviation doesn't mean much unless you shoot several dozens shots of the same load.

Now, a basic chronograph will provide a fairly accurate average velocity, especially in shade or under cloudy skies, but most just don't hack it for more sophisticated tasks, even when they have a SD function.

Mule Deer-

You've used many makes of chronograph over the years, I'm sure. Which do you recommend to someone planning to buy a chronograph today?

I completely agree with this. For me, 100 yards is only for getting on paper, I then zero at 200 and hardly ever shoot 200 again. 300 yards and further is much more fun, refines your skills, shows flaws in your reloading and if nothing else...allows you to blame the wind .

Having a rifle and load shoot repetitive groups on successive range trips is telling you something. That is why good notes, a chrony and saving exemplary range cards is a good idea.

Also noting where the first shot goes from a cold barrel is good to have documented too. Just something the pros do - those who wear camo uniforms and carry long range rifles.

Reading these reply's, it's clear there's several ways to skin a cat.

This cold bore concept, How so?

I take two rifles to the range, I'll fire the first two shots of each rifle into terra firma, because I will have a clean bore as I cleaned both rifles after the last range session, and I know I need to slightly foul the bore,

In effect, I no longer have a cold bore, I fired two fouling shots.

I will fire 30/40 rounds each session, then return home and clean,

You guys with this cold bore first shot, Obviously you're shooting a fouled barrel each time?

Sometimes....and clean as well, to see what it does.

My 7mm Mashburn will put the first one where it should to 500-600 yards, clean or fouled, but not all rifles will do that. I do check them both ways.

That's it right there. Steel & other reactive targets (I love water-filled recyclables) make the shooting game a TON more fun than bench shooting. I love great groups and do my load work-up & scope zeroing from a bench, but then get away & work from field positions at varying distances.

A lot more realistic and FUN!

I try to keep track of what my rifles do from a cold bore, but rarely clean unless I sense (and then verify) that accuracy is falling off. In hunting situations I keep painter's tape over the muzzle to block moisture, but will run a WD-40 soaked patch through followed by dry to keep bore dry. I check how this affects my rifles, too.

Checks are made at maximum distances I will taking shots in the field, typically 400 yds.

HuntnShoot,

When I absolutely want to know what's happening I use my Oehler 35P.

Not saying I am anywhere close to a professional, but I have been doing this shooting thing for a heck of a lot of years.

I seldom shoot more than 3 shot groups when initially working up a load. You can ladder 5-6 different loads and see where the groups get smaller and then start to open up again. Once that is determined, I tweak the load by smaller increments of what seemed to be the most accurate. After that I may screw around with seating depth.

Since I very seldom shoot at game past 300 yards, I will check and see where the gun shoots at that distance at max.

I don't load at maximum for any rifle I have as I have found that mine usually shoot the most accurate at somewhere just shy of maximum and I don't subscribe to the thought that I must get the most velocity out of a rifle. If need be, I just switch to a different rifle.

The last thing I do is to check the load over a simple Chrony. Not the best and I am aware of it's limitations, but remember I am doing this to satisfy idle curiosity. I could care less what velocity I am at, only where the bullet strikes at a given distance, which I check at those distances by firing 3 shot groups at several range sessions over the years. Checking zero every year before hunting seasons verify this and you get a pretty good idea what that specific load does. If I can shoot 1"-1&1/4 " groups at 100 yards with the same load and the same rifle over 3-4 years and verify it at 200 &300 yards, I know I am good.

Having typed all this, it's fairly irrelevant as 95% of the elk I kill are within 100 yards. Most less than 50.

Tiny groups on targets don't impress me much. Bloody holes in hides do and there is seldom more than one hole.

You are right in that there are several ways to skin a cat. Just to use one example, I have a Browning A-Bolt 7mm RM. When I first got it, I was able to shoot it some before I bought it. I shot really well with all of the loads I put through it, which was why I bought it. After I bought it, I cleaned the barrel down to bare metal. Then the thing would not even keep shots on the entire target, let alone group. So I chased a few shadows when it finally dawned on me that the barrel was pretty dirty when I was first shooting it. Come to find out that is the secret to shooting this rifle. Don't ever use it to take a shot that counts out of a clean barrel...ever. So with this rifle, yes the bore is fouled. When I say cold bore, I mean the first shot at ambient temperature conditions that exist at the time.

I always shoot a rifle enough to tell me whether or not it shoots best clean or somewhat dirty, and the barrel is in whatever condition it needs when I go hunting. I won't use a rifle that shoots the first shot away from the rest of the group. The first shot you take when hunting is probably the most important one you will shoot, so where it lands, and if it needs a somewhat clean or somewhat dirty barrel to land the first shot where it needs to land is a lot more critical to me than how tight the group may be.

So again, when I say cold bore, I do not necessarily mean from a clean to bare metal first shot.

I try also to determine how many shots it takes through a barrel for the accuracy to deteriorate. I clean it accordingly.

This is pretty much the truth for me, Shooting groups below about .75" with any consistancy is hard for me with a sporter rifle and a typical 6X or 9X scope. Oh sure every then I will get lucky but for every lucky .5" group, there are some that are 1+

I have a 14 lb rifle with a 32X and its alot easier with all that weight. It just seems to drop them in.

To shoot really good groups I need pretty much dead calm, My range has wind flags, but my ability to use them to any real effect (except to wait until they stop moving) is pretty limited.

If I only compared to myself to the internet, I would consider myself be a pretty poor shot. But luckily I see the others at the range and even those that shoot the Saturday matches as well as the other hunters at the outfitters I visit so I know I am not really that bad off.