Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Killing deer at 1000 yards

DaveKing wrote:

"I know many folks that hunt at the 1000 yard distances stated here. These responsible folks are not a detriment to hunting once understood."

I've been following this thread for a while, and just can't help but jump in now. How can you call this hunting? Any fool can approach to within 1000 yards of even the warriest of critters. It takes an even bigger fool to launch a bullet at them for the sake of bragging rights. 1000 yard "hunting" is simply an egotistical practice, strictly for bragging rights. If you care to argue, show me how it is more effective? There is less bullet energy, GREATLY increased chance of wounding the animal (ie moving) no matter how much you have "studied" its movement. Furthermore, it doesn't get any lamer than shooting a "sighter" shot <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Come on, while I admire the art of 1000 yard shooting, keep it to paper targets and steel gongs. Only an irresponsible moron would deny that it is unethical.

280_ACKLEY

In the post I made just after the one you reference here

""I know many folks that hunt at the 1000 yard distances stated here. These responsible folks are not a detriment to hunting once understood.""

is the following statement... I believe it applies in your case.


"I'm sorry there are folks that can't and won't accept that there is a group of responsible hunters shooting game animals further than the general hunting populace but I see how this stereotype is formed. Many of the true LRHunters spend hours trying to overcome this stumbling block and many folks come to understand and believe, others witness one "long range" event by someone with "no business shooting at a critter that far away" and never get beyond that. "

Your personal ethical handicap is of little consequence to me and many others, but I will not have your set inflicted upon me. Hunt whatever way you wish.

I'm outta here, guys. However you hunt, Merry Christmas and good hunting in the New Year. (And Go Tigers)

Amazing, people don't have any issues whacking deer under 200 yards with a high powered rifle (can we say overkill kiddies) gonna gripe about long range hunting! Whats the difference??? The critter is DEAD and in my freezer. Did he die any better being shot from short range than long range? Come take a walk with me in the woods some time. We'll find evidence of deer mortally wounded that were shot by "short range hunters" and never recovered. Care to watch as coyoties run down a deer that had a leg shot off, again not being followed up by a "short range hunter".



Exactly what is your definition of moron?

BirdWatcher, The idea that one has more class if he is sneeky is a nonsequatar. It conveys no information. I don't think you understand the LRH. He is convinced his shot is a, what did you call it? "...a slam dunk. I don't agree at all with this statement. The general public doesn't have a clue what hunters do whether they are sneeky Petes or Carloses. We now know if it is not your way it is not classy. And I supose we should all use .30-06 with factory 180 grainers.

And a Merry Christmas to all..... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ringman... Seriously, I think you're reaching here.

Of course I UNDERSTAND ("sigh!") the LR hunter believes he can make the shot, other experienced LR shooters have debated whether such is always true enough under field conditions, even given the LR hunter refrains from shooting until he's "sure". How reliable that "sureness" can realistically be (even given Mr Lija's 4"@1,000 yard rifle) is the gist.

That is the substantiative part of the LR debate subject to actual testing, data etc etc, although I am aware of no impartial fields trials, now THAT would be an interesting magazine article. Or how about actual LR field events in competition? Surely military snipers or such must hold such events?

"Class" or 'ethics" is of NECESSITY nebulous, and not a conclusion based on gathered information. However, such judgement calls govern most ALL of our actions. To many, knocking over an unsuspecting antelope at 1,100 yards ain't sport or fair chase. The issue with these folks ain't just CAN it be done, but can it be done while callling it "hunting".

To which the tired response is "Ya but a deer shot by a bowhunter don't know he's there either", implying that there is no difference between being within 50 or 800 yards of game. This is patently not true.

Agreed that the general public doesn't know diddly about firearms or hunting in general. But if you seriously think that images of bench-rested deer taken at extreme range wouldn't leave a powerful negative impression, then you and I must be living on different planets.

Seems like ALL LR range boards are plagued with never-ending arguments like this, far more than other hunting boards, the flack on LR boards coming not from anti-hunters, but from OTHER hunters. This being because folks in general DO percieve these activities differently, even hunters.



What??? I don't even play cricket <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Nor do I have a .30-06 (.308 rocks). Anyway, my "Outdoor Life" childhood hero Jack O'Connor was convinced that .270 was enough, prob'ly he wasn't thinking of 1,000 yards though.

Maybe "class" or the lack thereof is like pornography, hard to define but you know it when you see it. And ya, I would still pass on that 1,000 yard mule deer, even if it was a slam-dunk.

All of this has been rehashed endlessly on various and sundry LR boards. So, once again, here I go shutting the heck up.

...and to all a good night <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Birdwatcher

Is He Hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his bow and heads out, planning to be back in a couple of hours. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his bow and a back pack and heads out, planning to spend the whole day. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his bow and a back pack and heads out, planning to spend the night on the far ridge. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his rifle and heads out, planning to be back in a couple of hours. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his rifle and hauls out a back pack. He plans to spend the whole day out in the woods. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his rifle and hauls out his back pack. He plans to spend the night on the far ridge. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He grabs his rifle and hauls out some binocs. He sits down at the edge of the bank and starts to glass clear out to 300 yards. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He carefully gets his rifle and attaches a bipod. Then he gets some binocs. He sits down at the edge of the bank and starts to glass clear out to 500 yards. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He gets out a portable bench rest and sets it up. He carefully gets his rifle out and some huge binocs and a spotting scope. He sits down near the edge of the bank and starts to glass clear out to 700 yards. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

A fellow arrives in his pick up. Parks at the side of the road over looking a huge clear cut valley. He gets out a portable bench rest and sets it up. He carefully gets his rifle out and some huge binocs and a spotting scope. He sits down at the edge of the bank and starts to glass clear out to 1000 yards. He is looking for a deer. Is he hunting?

wow lots of good reading here, but if wind speed doubles doesn't drift quadruple?

If wind speed doubles, drift doubles.

Ringman, the hang-up seems to be the bench. I'ts fine to climb up into an elevated stand, rest your rifle on the window ledge and pick off deer out to 300 yards. But to shoot deer past 300 using a bypod or a backpack and sand sock, well thats unethical.



Birdwatcher, sniper web sites have alot of good info on how to dope wind using trees, leaves, grass. I'm not a sniper wanna-be, but find their training usefull for hunting at extended ranges. Also some interesting stuff available on their shooting matches. Few years ago I didn't think much about shooting out past 100 yards. In the areas I hunt 75 yards was a long shot. A .44 mag loaded with 210g JHP's was my gun of choice for white tail hunting. Got asked to go on a trip elk hunting in CO. I joined a gun club with a 300 yard range to prepair for the trip. First time out west opened my eyes to shooting long distances!

Hey 300

I agree on the overkill part one of my pet peevs is the Tim Allen shooters ( More power ) Big is better right? WRONG!!
I got caught up in that when I was a kid and got out of that fast real fast. I know my range and my limits and do very well in those limits.

Bearbeater

[quote]After shooting at Williamsport (1022 yards) I can now see how killing a deer at 1000 yards really wouldn't be that difficult. All 10 of my shots whould of killed a deer. being colder during our deer season and not having to shoot 10 shots as fast as one can would make a huge difference in accuracy.

<br>

<br>I am going to make some alterations to my existing 300 win mag which will make it easier to kill deer to 1000 yards. As of now my self imposed limit is 650 yards. I can see how that range could be doubled.

<br>

<br>Have a good one all,

<br>

<br>Don [/quote







Shooting deer at 1000 yards takes a LOT of shooting skills.









.















Shooting deer at 1000 yards takes NO hunting skills.

































<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Bearbeater, my 6 1/2" 629 does fine, nice and light, deer don't go very far.

Mauser96, if they don't have any hunting skills, then how do they know where to set up?

AJ... in fairness, your bench-rest hang-up comments were probably better directed at me, Ringman has been defending that sort of thing. Easy to get turned around on these threads I know. And yes, personally I would feel just plain silly sitting out on a hillside next to my truck with a banchrest during hunting season, and siller too that I put in all that time and effort to perform such a graceless act. And I would wanna crawl under a rock if members of the general public saw me on account of the image I was putting out.

But that I've said already. Where one stands on this stalk vs challenge-in-the-shot debate again comes down to gut reaction, the best parallel being various moral issues. Although unlike morality, this shooting debate ain't a good vs. evil thing. We can talk all we want but it comes down to everyone's own gut reaction. After all, from a scientific standpoint it doesn't matter HOW ya kill 'em long as it's quick (how about Claymore antipersonnel mines, detonated from that same distant hillside? Think of the fieldcraft involved!).

Other than that I have the same fascination with long-range accuracy as most everyone else here. On that topic, the January/Febuary issue of Petersen's "RifleShooter" magazine has an article "1,000 yard shooting on a budget" which might be of interest to some folks here. Of course, prob'ly like most technical articles any more, ya can likely learn more on boards like this in two days than with a whole year of magazines.

I already shut the heck up up on this topic, I was just summoned forth by the mention of my handle <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher, the bench comment was made in jest. Just tryin to get into someones mind to see why they find shooting deer at long ranges to be so terrible. Makes me wonder if its from a bad experience, or that if I can't do it how the heck can someone else. Sure, shooting long ranges are demanding, takes a lot of practice. Just because I don't happen to shoot at Camp Perry doesn't mean I'm a poor shot. (PPC matches are my cup of tea). And yes, I understand the "degree of difficulty" increases with the distance, and not at a linear rate. 1000yards is not 10X in relation to 100yards.



Got to get me a copy of that mag. You are correct though, there's tons of good info from people with extensive experiences hanging out here. Just gotto know which rock to sit on and listen!



Don't leave the campfire just yet, kinda think with a little stoken the fire's about to get nice and warm <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

AJ300Mag

Quote
"And yes, I understand the "degree of difficulty" increases with the distance, and not at a linear rate. 1000yards is not 10X in relation to 100yards."

You're correct, not a linear progression at all.

We've discussed this many times over on Long Range Hunting, it comes up often.

Without adding any environmentals into the situation I liken the difficulty to the "inverse squares" law.

Simple example:
http://www.lbl.gov/abc/experiments/Experiment1.html

As the distance doubles the area quadruples... Shooting all rounds into a 1" square at 100 yards seems simple enough but try shooting into a 1" square at 200 yards and it's now 4 times as difficult. To go from 100 yards to 1000 yards is about 100 times more difficult given the shooter is trying to "hit" a given spot of the same size in both cases.

Dave, I hang out at LRH. Vast amounts of knowledge in their neck of the woods! Thats where I got some ideas for building my .338 and .300 ultras. Though the .338 doesn't have a "Daryl Barrel" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />



I look at long range hunting as I do bear hunting. In MI they either bait, or run bear with dogs. Not a lot of people care for a pack of hounds running across their private property, even tried to pass a law to ban dogs. I don't see the challenge of shooting a tree'd bear, don't care to participate. Smart enough to know its the chase (watching the dogs work) that counts. Heck yes I voted against the law!!!!



Al

AJ... "...I don't see the challenge of shooting a tree'd bear, don't care to participate..."

Ahh, now THERE"S the gist, if one shoots LR game because the SHOT is the challenge (and what other reason is there?), then I personally have a problem with that.

Along the same lines, as you alluded to in your earlier post, the shooting of fenced deer over bait (permanent automated timed feeders no less!) from an elevated wooden blind is normal here in Texas, in fact the line of "Sendero" rifles was created with exactly these situations in mind. Not really my cup of tea, but if they moved that feeder out to 1,000 yards just to add "challenge" then I might have a problem with it.

"...Think of the tracking skills these guys have, to be able to zero in on the spot of the hit and trail the critter if it runs off. No easy task if you don't have snow for a background...."

Um... the necessity of knowing the exact point of ground where you hit the animal so you can track it after you hit it ain't exactly a ringing endorsement of LR hunting <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"...or that if [they] can't do it how the heck can someone else..."

AJ, not everyone who objects to the LR shooting of game just fell off of the turnip truck. Developing sufficient ability to hit a deer in the vitals at 1,000 yards is not in the same league as playing the violin, playing in the NBA, or actually winning at Camp Perry. The principles are easily understood and most competent riflemen could do it as well as most here if they bought the set-up and put in the time.

Along the same lines, I am in my late forties, and have been doing paid field work (birds mostly) on and off for many hundreds of hours over more than 25 years. (so generally speaking when I go afield I don't have a clueless look and the store tags still hanging off of my outdoor gear <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). Much of this data collection has involved estimating ambient conditions, including wind speed (although usually not to within the exacting 1 mph degree of error necessary for consistent long range shooting).

The point being that wind estimation in the field ain't rocket science beyond the "understanding" of us normal types either, just practice. Dust, grass, leaves and branches all move in the wind in a fairly predictable manner. Calling the wind where you're at can be tough enough, calling it at 1,000 yards through that wavering two dimensional image of a 20x (or more) spotting scope is even harder. Even assuming the wind is gonna hold true from moment to moment.

Again, surely there must be field-condition target competitions between military snipers and the like, how consistently do they hit and why aren't those results posted around here somewhere?

Earlier you made a very good point about contributing something useful or getting the heck out of Dodge, I agree. Heck, I've been posting ad-nauseum over on the other boards, I'll stay off of this one unless someone besides me writes "Birdwatcher" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher, guess the word "challenge" was improperly used. I've nicked unseen branches with both bow and gun, completly missing my quarry. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />





You do see my point though. Different ares of the country employ tactics for hunting that others find foreign to what is used in their area. Doesn't make it bad or wrong. They're all "hunting" and using the skills they have learned to be successful hunters. Should have seen the fight in MI when we were trying to legalize hunting deer from an elevated stand with firearms. Texas had done it for years, along with other states. Guess we're not as smart as sothern folks when it comes to hunting out of trees. Even had a doctor shoot himself (fatal) while hoisting a shotgun up a tree, before it was made legal.



Don't know about you, but I've taken both shoulders out of whitetails and had em run for over 100yards, with their brisket firmly planted on the ground. In a cedar swamp they're out of sight at that distance. Takes a little tracking to find em. Even seen deer shot on TV that have traveled some distance after a fatal shot. Never said long range is always a bang~flop proposition.



I'll try and find some match results that I can link you to. Not sure if they post it from the snipers challenge on the net or not.



Never said that anyone here was clueless. Just trying to slip some info in for someone that might be new to give them an idea of where to find more information, hence the logic behind these forums.



Not trying to be condencending, just playing the devils advocate to entice other people's point of view when concerning gear, tactics.



Al

Birdwatcher, check here. Might be able to give you some idea of what your looking for. Check out "courses".

http://www.badlandstactical.net/



Something else you might find interesting,

http://www.angelfire.com/tx5/snipersustainment/Badlands02.html



Snipers Paradise shows the results for the Snipers Challenge (held in Texas) but just gives the names of the winners, not the score or course of fire.



Al