Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Trigger question

ChrisF, you and roast both talk as though this is a "High-Power" board. Perhaps I am reading the wrong forum. Neither you or I are the "main-stream" AR user. If you visit AR-15.com you will be made, as I have been, aware of that fact quickly. Muleshoe started this thread by asking something like: "I've got an Oly that needs a new trigger, any suggestions?" Do you really think he wants to purchase Geissele or KAC? I may be wrong, but my take on his question was that he wanted something a little better than what he has, a stock Oly trigger. That is why my response to him was what it was. I know there are many triggers out there that are better than the ones that I mentioned in my initial post. I just didn't want to, as roast would say, "muddy the waters" with suggestions that were way beyond what he was apparently requesting. If someone posts a question like: "I would like a reliable car for my 16 year-old son to drive to school, any suggestions?" Why would you point that person in the direction of a Porsche or Maserati, when all they really wanted was a used Cavalier? Sure, the other two choices are smoother and faster, but........

I have built somewhat over 1000 AR combinations over the years. I think 3 of them went to people that intended to shoot high-power matches with them. My customer base is split between varmint hunters and predator hunters. Out of the roughly 1000 units I spoke of, 2 of them had iron sights. As you can see, like you, my involvement with AR's is far from "main stream". I can't sell a trigger with 4-1/2 pound pull, and out of all of the Jewell triggers I have sold, I have yet to have a complaint. Does that mean they are the best? No, it means my customers are using them for a different purpose that you use your AR. What works well for varmint hunters doesn't necessarily work well for high-power shooters. Many things that work well for high-power shooters don't work well for predator hunters.

I think more along the lines of what Chris and I are saying is that for the cost of the jewel, or even less, you can have a better, more reliable, more consistent trigger.

IF I was suggesting to spend more somehow my apologies. I was simply trying to say some things are not what they seem and why not know ALL the info.

I hear you on the differences between match and varmint shooters. Yet I've always used my match guns for varmints as I have nothing thats varmint only. They work just fine, yet most times I'm shooting a cheaper but better trigger setup than the jewel. And the tuned up rra versions can be taken down fairly light. Often times some folks are sold what they are told they have to have, rather than things that will work.

AR 15.com-- nope don't do that sight any more. Too many folks that don't have a clue. All they want is multiple rails and bayonet lugs.....Thats a different sight. I"d rather find a varmint hunter site.

AS to the car, if I could find a cheap cavalier that performed more like a BMW, then why not? And if it was better MPG so much the better.

BTW I saw a gun double on the line at a state match this weekend. Mostly shooter error but it did happen to be a jewel on top of it.

Jeff

I "don't do AR-15. com" either, but this is just as bad on the other side of "rail handguards and bayonete lugs"

I think we have both made our points, I think I'll stagger back to my "jar of vinegar"

Bingo!!

I'm just a varmint shooter looking for a trigger that's affordable, breaks at something less than 5lbs, and doesn't have the quarter inch of creep I'm dealing with now. I'm guessing the trigger I have now breaks at 7 or 8lbs, it sucks.

Dtech
As an outside, unbiased observer who would love to have on of your rifles, I didn't think ChrisF was intending to impugn or criticize your expertise in anyway. From an outside view, you both came out unscathed. Even where you may have disagreed, it was clear you were talking about different points of view. I don't think you guys need a peacemaker, but that's the way I see it.
T

Thank you toltecgriz,
You are right I meant no ill. That bit of edge on my humor didn't go over very well did it? I don't post very often. When I do, I try to make it worth everyone's time. I've tried to qualify my preferences and comments so folks can decide what might be valid for them and what might not. Believe it or not, I've learned from Dtech, but somehow I don't think it's worked out the other way.

muleshoe...in your initial query, there wasn't a mention of budget, so I covered the gamut. Now that I know you're on a budget, take a look at RRA section of my review. Pay the extra to get it tuned. I believe it's the best value in an AR trigger out there today. In fact, I usually keep an extra one in my back pocket for the folks that try mine and want to steal it....and my apologies for that whole "Jewell detour". It wasn't my intent to bait Dtech into that whole tangent.

Thanks! I've been thinking the Rock River would be the one since your original post. Where do I find one of these beasts and who works on them?

I know that Dtech knows Holliger and so ask Dtech if he sells and tunes RRA versions. If not White Oak Precision offers them.

I think the Dtech has taken this personally which is not the intention at all. Simply probably more experience with all versions of triggers by Chris. I stopped when I was happy and didn't go off to every trigger made, but as duly noted I'm lucky to have Milazzo and RRA tuned ones here.

Dtech-- the vinegar was a funny, Chris always has a sense of humor.. Neither of us are taking you to task, simply mentioning better options.

Jeff

Jeff

Okay guys, if you hadn't guessed by now you are dealing with a very ignorant AR shooter here. The answer is probably quite obvious, but please tell me what the difference is between a single stage and a two stage trigger is.

A two stage has unresistant take up before the trigger weight is encountered. A one stage is like we are used to on bolt action rifles: i.e. no slop on the front end. That's my definition. I'll be interested in what others say.

Like RickyD says, a single stage trigger is what most folk are familar with. Pull against the trigger. When you put enough weight, trigger breaks, rifle goes boom.
A two-stage trigger will move in two "stages". First it will move through the first stage (with varying amounts of weight depending on how it's set up). Then you'll hit the second stage where more weight will allow it to break like most triggers you're probably familiar with. The first stage isn't like your "quarter inch of creep" though. Moves much smoother and when you release it goes backwards too. Simpler in practice than I'm making it sound.

Benefits of a 2 stage in an AR are two fold in my eyes;
1) Most AR triggers are adaptations of the M14 design where the hammer is fully captured during the entire first stage giving an extra margin of safety. How much sear engagement you have doesn't come into play until you hit the second stage. In general you're able to get a crispier break with a 2-stage with less work and less risk.
2) You can play with the weight bias, How much weight is on each stage. If you want a 2 lb trigger, you can pull on 1lb on the fist stage, hit the second stage, add 1 more pound of pull when you're ready and break the shot. You effectively feel like you've pulled on a 1 lb trigger....or you can go 1-1/2lb first then 1/2 lb second.

I'd suggest you find someone with a good 2 stage to try. All my explaining goes away in a single "aha" the moment you try one. If you go ahead and buy one tuned by Holliger or other tuner, talk to them about what you intend to do with it (some of us are saddled with a 4-1/2 lb requirement that you don't need to be).

Okay, another question or two from one fairly new to the AR world.

How does one go about contacting this John Holliger or someone who tunes these triggers? Is it better to just buy say a RR from him or buy one elsewhere and send it to him to tune? Do they need just the trigger, or the entire lower to do the tuning?

Thanks much guys.

John Holliger's e-mail address is [email]johnwhiteoakprecision.com.[/email] His website is www.whiteoakprecision.com or www.whiteoakarmament.com

You can buy it already tuned or you can buy it elsewhere and pay him to tune it (sometimes he can't keep them in stock, so you might have to buy it somewhere else to get it quicker). He generally needs just the trigger if your lower is within spec. There are a bunch of folk that have done it that way and I've not heard a complaint to date. I've been fortunate to have him tune mine with my lower and I've compared it to triggers he's tuned without the lower. Contrary to what I would have predicted, there wasn't much difference.

Thanks again Chris, I've just launched an email off to John. Will let all know how this little excursion ends up.

I own 4 Jewell triggers, 2 bolts and 2 AR's. The BM 2-stage on my Varminter was horrible, I sold the trigger. No matter what time and effort went into trying to tune it, all I got was frustrated. Since The Jewell bolt triggers were fantastic additions to my bolt guns, I thought I'd try the Jewell's on my AR's. Both took a little tuning as well, but they now break like glass and are well worth the $ spent. I expect that there are "better" triggers out there and my experience with different brands is limited, but I am quite happy with these additions. Then again, who wants to say they ever made a misinformed purchase? I guess that ignorance can be bliss. I wish that I had enough $ to try all the tiggers out there, but I am satisfied enough with these that I don't have a want or need for another right now.
By the way, howdy folks, I'm new to the forum today. 31 years in the reloading game and a bit of knowledge to share when I can. But I'm always willing to learn, as well.

Welcome to the campfire, magnumb. Catchy name! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

There's lots to learn and many opportunities to share here. Hope you enjoy yourself. You will, if you don't take us or you too seriously. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Welcome again!

Thanks RickyD, I appreciate the welcome! Life (especially nowadays) is too short to take either very seriously. I hope to be able to impart some helpful info as well as gain some while visiting this site. Thanks again.

You are welcome! I like your attitude!

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread I have another helping of reliable information to consider when I finally buy or build my own AR-15 within the next three to five years. As a retiree, I don't have and won't have the surplus dollars to waste trying this and that and the other thing in a futile effort to discover what will work for my intended uses. So I'll keep checking this forum from time to time.

I just installed a Bushmaster 2 stage last night. The first stage was not very smooth, but the 2nd broke like it was supposed to. I imagine with more break in, it might get better. My other AR's wear low power spring kits, and they are probably a better alternative based on price alone. I just don't take my bolt guns with 2# Timneys with me to the range when also shooting my AR's. That way you don't realize just how crappy AR triggers are.