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OP
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I have a Custer era 1873 Springfield trapdoor carbine that for some reason I have an itch to shoot a deer with. I reload but I'm not set up for 45/70 and only want to shoot one deer then put it away for the next 140 years! Has anybody shot these with factory ammo and if so which ammo did you use?
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I have safely fired UMC standard load cowboy action ammo from them.
That also depends on the condition of the gun too...
If it has whipped cream and chocolate drizzles on it, it’s dessert. Grow up and get a coffee damnit
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I have safely fired UMC standard load cowboy action ammo from them.
That also depends on the condition of the gun too... Good advice! It would be well worth the few bucks to have a good gunsmith take a look at it before you shoot it. Remington also makes a 300gr "Any Gun" .45-70 load that is safe in the Trapdoors. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Campfire Ranger
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If it were mine id find someone that would sell or load me some black powder and cast bullets loads. I have pick up an old sharps Borchardt 1878 rifle, and will be using Black powder loads in it and the Borchardt action id a lot stronger than the trapdoor rifles. it will be awhile before I I get everthing to start loading tho! good luck with your quest!
Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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If it were mine id find someone that would sell or load me some black powder and cast bullets loads. I have pick up an old sharps Borchardt 1878 rifle, and will be using Black powder loads in it and the Borchardt action id a lot stronger than the trapdoor rifles. it will be awhile before I I get everthing to start loading tho! good luck with your quest! Provided the person you find knows what they are doing, and is also aware that 45-70 carbine loads only use 55 grain charges...
If it has whipped cream and chocolate drizzles on it, it’s dessert. Grow up and get a coffee damnit
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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And a lot of old trapdoors have pretty rough bores, so don't shoot cast bullets very well, especially when paired with black powder.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Bought and tried that ultramax cowboy stuff in my 1888 model. Stuff would hardly make it 100yds and left lots of excess powder in the action. To the point that it interfered with loading and function. Will go back to the black powder loads supplied by a good friend! He loads good stuff!
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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What John said. Plus, those Trapdoor barrels had dimensions all over the map, and matching the bullet to the particular bore is critical for excellent accuracy. After the gunsmith (who I hope is familiar with Trapdoors) has pronounced it fit, and the bore is decent, determine the groove diameter and throat dimensions and select a cast bullet to fit. Cast it soft (around bhn 7-10), and load it with an appropriate charge of black powder. If all that is beyond your comfort level, there are a lot of advanced handloaders who can help you with that.
(Admittedly this advice is more for someone who is planning to fire his rifle on a regular basis, not someone who just wants to make it go bang once or twice and shoot a close range deer with it. To that end I too would check out the cowboy action loads.)
"You can lead a man to logic, but you cannot make him think." Joe Harz
"Always certain, often right." Keith McCafferty
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Campfire Tracker
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I have a Custer era 1873 Springfield trapdoor carbine that for some reason I have an itch to shoot a deer with. I reload but I'm not set up for 45/70 and only want to shoot one deer then put it away for the next 140 years! Has anybody shot these with factory ammo and if so which ammo did you use? Assuming the rifle is in fit condition to be shot, any of the Remington, Winchester, or Federal factory ammo will be alright in it. The Saami specs for the 45-70 are set at trapdoor pressures. Remington 405 gr factory loads have been good in all the original 45-70's I've been around. But if you really want to shoot that thing like it was intended , a 405 gr bullet backed up by 70 grs of 2f will put a smile back on the old guns face, and probably make you smile a bit as well.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Campfire Member
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Why in the world would anyone want to shoot a valuble , historic firearm . Go and buy an reproduction. This is only my opinion.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Why in the world would anyone want to shoot a valuble , historic firearm . Go and buy an reproduction. This is only my opinion. It's what it was made for. Unless the OP does something really foolish (which I really doubt!) it won't hurt the value nor the condition to shoot it. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Campfire Tracker
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OP
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Why in the world would anyone want to shoot a valuble , historic firearm . Go and buy an reproduction. This is only my opinion. I understand it's only your opinion but if you have to ask why you would probably never understand my answer!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Why in the world would anyone want to shoot a valuble , historic firearm . Go and buy an reproduction. This is only my opinion. There is much satisfaction in shooting and hunting with "antiques". Arguably the best tribute one can pay a historic weapon, is to use it as intended. They have their own personalities, which can require craft in the assembly of loads. It is also very satisfying to harvest game with them, and surprising how well they work, 100+ years after their birth. I've taken deer with an 1896 Krag, a big sow with a High Wall from 1900, and shot guns as old as 1890 vintage. Others here have taken bigger game, with older guns. As long as they are appropriately handled, they are perfectly fine to shoot & hunt. The High Wall in fact made the trip with a Ruger #1 this past weekend. Unless it has unusual provenance, Trapdoors are not so valuable as to preclude hunting. If I came across one of say, Teddy Roosevelt's guns that is worth six or seven figures, then I'd be much more cautious of it, but I wouldn't be afraid to use it.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Why in the world would anyone want to shoot a valuble , historic firearm . Go and buy an reproduction. This is only my opinion. There is much satisfaction in shooting and hunting with "antiques". Arguably the best tribute one can pay a historic weapon, is to use it as intended. They have their own personalities, which can require craft in the assembly of loads. It is also very satisfying to harvest game with them, and surprising how well they work, 100+ years after their birth. I've taken deer with an 1896 Krag, a big sow with a High Wall from 1900, and shot guns as old as 1890 vintage. Others here have taken bigger game, with older guns. As long as they are appropriately handled, they are perfectly fine to shoot & hunt. The High Wall in fact made the trip with a Ruger #1 this past weekend. Unless it has unusual provenance, Trapdoors are not so valuable as to preclude hunting. If I came across one of say, Teddy Roosevelt's guns that is worth six or seven figures, then I'd be much more cautious of it, but I wouldn't be afraid to use it. i love that Hi-Wall of yours 
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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hell he would prolly chit if he found out what i shot a pig with huh Pat
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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 yup And when I find the hog(s) that busted my setup, they aren't gonna enjoy the 500gr slugs, either 
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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??? I have hunted and killed both a Newfoundland moose and a Wyoming buffler with an original Sharps 45/110. BTW, the original carbine load was only 55 grains so the recoil wouldn't kick the teeth out of some recruit. The 70 grain charge and a 500 grain bullet for the Infantry rifle was very useable. The Sergeants would load up one of those secretly when they wanted to pacify a loudmouthed 'cruit. It musta worked!!
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish! ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/Sabretooth-1.jpg)
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Campfire Tracker
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I question the recoil part of the carbine load. The Army gave that load a maximum affective range of 660 yds, which is about 600 yds further than the cavalry was expected to enguage at anyway.( I think they reevaluated that after Reno and Benteen took such a beating from Weir point and could not affectively return fire,along with other battles win the carbines could reach out far enough)
The regular load of 70 grs was supposed to have an affective range of 800 yds, and when they came out with the 500 gr bullet in 1881 was to give the infantry a range to 1000 yds.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Why in the world would anyone want to shoot a valuble , historic firearm . Go and buy an reproduction. This is only my opinion. post to see on this forum. GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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This 'horrible recoil' bit regarding 70gr in a cav Carbine is an old and tired myth.
Full house 70-500 BP loads are quite manageable out of a carbine, less recoil than a Modern Marlin Lever gun with 405 SMK loads.
There's no flys on the 55-405 load, it's still pretty stout medicine.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Yep. I've shot 75gr under 500's in my High Wall, which I'd guess is similar weight to a Trapdoor carbine. Recoil is noticeable at the bench, but not bad. And if someone wanted my scalp, odds aren't I wouldn't notice at all 
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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This 'horrible recoil' bit regarding 70gr in a cav Carbine is an old and tired myth.
Full house 70-500 BP loads are quite manageable out of a carbine...GTC So says the man who shoots 240gr of 1F under a two-ounce chunk of lead from a sawed-off 8 Bore. Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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The 8 bore was "sawed off" when I got it, and it's what I had to work with,.....to start with, as it were. After the ongoing honing, when time allows,......that old beast is looking more like a 7 bore,....in the technical sense. looking fwd to cutting the correct RB mold, and just settling down to a conservative 180 gr load,.....and willing to bet that's where the accuracy will be found.
"Hollis" is NOT sawed off,......that old gun was MADE that length, and the 100% Tapered bore patterns tighter than a LOT of way longer guns.
Anyhoo,.....Old trapdoors are well worth the voyage of discovery, and are interesting to shoot. My method of re-inducing choke to swamped out muzzles is a beaut, and REALLY gets em' throwing groups.
Looks like some would chit green turds if they saw how "Historic / collectable / original" arms get treated around here. Repaired, spliced, re-barreled, re-lined, glued, patched, mended, polished, lapped, re-finished,....and than SHOT.
That's the key here,....SHOT !
Hell,.......some of the damn things are good for another coupla' hundred years, after a wakeup call.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Tracker
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I have a box of Black Dog 47-70-405 with 17 left in it. I bought them up at Track of the Wolf when I went to get Black powder for my Trapdoor. Im new to casting/reloading and wanted some off the shelf ammo to compare the accuracy of my loads to. Where are you in WI? Im 25min from Hudson south of St Paul MN.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Off the shelf 400-405 grain smokeless loads should be fine. They are quite mild and run at about 22 LR velocities. Still with that size slug, they hit like a brick. One could clean it with modern gear and not worry about getting every speck of salt peter/lead eliminated from pits etc in a well aged and less than pristine barrel.
If one is not really into the intricacies of BPCR, I'd not bother with the near endless challenges for getting optimum performance from BP. This from a guy who is still wringing out a 45-90 Sharps.
Last edited by 1minute; 01/07/14.
1Minute
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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That might look good on this screen,but but right in front of that chamber's a whole different story.
You are NOT going to get FULL obturation with white powder, it ain't happening.
The typically oversized chamber and groove dia found in most TDs NEEDS and demands the Hammer Blow initial pressure spike that BP delivers, to stand any chance at all of shooting to it's full potential.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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As far as the TD barrels go, shooting jacketed through em' is no favor, either.
LEAD
Period.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Member
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Why would anyone buy a rifle and not shoot it???
I have two TD's one a Pennsylvania rifle and one Montana with mint bores and wood. Shoot them, clean then and enjoy them.
Kurt
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Campfire Tracker
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Latest issue of "Handloader" magazine has an article on handloading Springfield/Allin .45-70s.
I'm not sure who originally called these rifles "Trapdoor Springfields," but to be authentic, you should call them what the frontiersmen called them--"Needle Guns"! (Somehow, I doubt that is going to catch on, tho).
The "trapdoor" name came 'way after people stopped using them on each other and started collecting them and shooting them at paper and steel. I assume that they were originally called "Needle Guns" because of the long firing pin and because some surplus dealer was trying to associate them with the history-making Prussian Needle Rifles of the mid-19th century, which they resemble not at all.
"Needle guns" were commonly used by civilians (including "good Indians" and both white and red scouts) in .50-70 because Uncle Sugar surplussed the 1868 models out to frontiersmen and Indian Police etc. for self defense, along with the remaining .50-70 ammo. Fewer of those older rifles survived because fewer were made and they weren't necessarily taken care of. Civilian frontiersmen didn't have a sergeant standing over them to make them keep their kit clean....
Fun guns, and better military weapons than their reputation warrants, although why the Army didn't adopt either the Remington or the Peabody, both excellent American designs, eludes me. Recycling Civil War musket parts seems to have ended so early in the history of the trapdoors that it can't have been a huge factor, IMO.
Last edited by Mesa; 01/08/14.
Was Mike Armstrong. Got logged off; couldn't log back on. RE-registered my old call sign, Mesa.
FNG. Again.
Mike Armstrong
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Posts: 53,303 |
Latest issue of "Handloader" magazine has an article on handloading Springfield/Allin .45-70s.
I'm not sure who originally called these rifles "Trapdoor Springfields," but to be authentic, you should call them what the frontiersmen called them--"Needle Guns"! (Somehow, I doubt that is going to catch on, tho).
The "trapdoor" name came 'way after people stopped using them on each other and started collecting them and shooting them at paper and steel. I assume that they were originally called "Needle Guns" because of the long firing pin and because some surplus dealer was trying to associate them with the history-making Prussian Needle Rifles of the mid-19th century, which they resemble not at all.
"Needle guns" were commonly used by civilians (including "good Indians" and both white and red scouts) in .50-70 because Uncle Sugar surplussed the 1868 models out to frontiersmen and Indian Police etc. for self defense, along with the remaining .50-70 ammo. Fewer of those older rifles survived because fewer were made and they weren't necessarily taken care of. Civilian frontiersmen didn't have a sergeant standing over them to make them keep their kit clean....
Fun guns, and better military weapons than their reputation warrants, although why the Army didn't adopt either the Remington or the Peabody, both excellent American designs, eludes me. Recycling Civil War musket parts seems to have ended so early in the history of the trapdoors that it can't have been a huge factor, IMO. The "Lobbyists" from Springfield's "District" had more expensive whores, Champagne, and Dope than the competition,.... Remington, Peabody, etc., and they were more LAVISH in the application, thereof. Low bidder kinda' deal, than, as it is now. Thanks for the advisory on maintaining "Authenticity". Having fooled with em' for over 60 years now, I'm somewhat embarrassed regarding assigned nonmenclatures. Thanks , you, and the "Latest issue' for getting me up to speed. GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Ken Waters wrote of the TD that the ammunition of the day was highly inconsistent, and sometimes did not chamber easily. He contended the extra leverage of the hinged breechblock supposedly made it easier to chamber off-spec ammo, and the gun was more tolerant of ammo than competitive designs. Which I guess was icing on the cake, after the wimmins & whiskey It would be interesting to get a nice one running, but I've already got too many projects to do...
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Long story but can be summed up like this. Peabody's rifle won the War Dept rifle trials in 1864, war ended in 1865, powers that be decided new rifles weren't needed. Springfield armory geeks started piddlin with the 1861 and cartridges left over from the 1864 trials.... Hung around on relined 58 barrels (50-70) for a bit, needed something better and dug peabodies cartridges out of the moth balls and in typical beuracrat fashion called it their own. Needle gun, slang for trapdoor, came from the long firing pin that either broke or pierced the primer, making a friggin mess at bad times... Peabodies cartridges submitted for 1864 field trials ![[Linked Image]](http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/scan-1.jpg)
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 31,648 Likes: 6 |
Yeah ! Bunch of us here always called 'em needle guns! Enjoy mine!
Founder
Ancient Order of the 1895 Winchester
"Come, shall we go and kill us venison?
And yet it irks me the poor dappled fools,
Being native burghers of this desert city,
Should in their own confines with forked heads
Have their round haunches gored."
WS
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 162
Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
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Been shooting them for 43 years. The needle gun is a new one on me.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Posts: 53,303 |
Red Meineke's excellent series, "The Buffalo Range" is well worth tracking down. It ran in serial form in BPC News. LOTS of referance to "Needle Guns" in most every historic referance quoted.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Thanks. I will do that. A quick google search on Springfield needle guns gives lots of historic reference on the term needle gun for TD�s. I thought I was fairly knowledgeable on TD�s. Good thing I wasn�t betting because I would have lost this one.
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