Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles Lee Collet Neck Sizing Die vs. Redding Type S Bushing Neck Die

I loaded up a few (30) rounds last night for my .308 using my Lee collet die and Forster Ultra Micrometer Seater. The most runout from any of the rounds loaded was .002" according to a Sinclair runout gage. Most measured between .001 and .0015" of runout, with some having no detectable runout at all, as in the needle not moving. This was with unturned, unsorted brass. Admittedly, I was using Lapua brass, which tends to be very uniform, but still, I was very pleased with the results.

I'm sure, provided the brass is reasonably uniform to begin with, equally good results can be had with bushing dies, or any die that doesn't use an expander. As I mentioned above, if I have to bump the shoulder back when my collet die sized brass starts getting a little snug in the chamber, I have had equally good results with a Forster FL die that I had them hone out the neck on so that I don't have to use an expander ball, and also redding body dies combined with a lee collet die.

I have tried all the methods I could find on getting dies with expanders to produce concentric brass, but have just not been able to get as good a result from them in spite of my efforts.

As always, others have had different results. It's just human nature to go with what we have personally observed, when it has worked for us�

John

A bit off topic...I like Wilson hand dies..I load for fifteen or twenty different cartridges and have been loading for about sixty years. When I get a rifle that has promise, I usually get a set of Wilson dies. It is easy to get straight loads with good brass. It does not take me much longer, I usually load small lots i.e. twenty or so. Also I enjoy reloading and am retired so speed is not an issue for me.

RDW,

I'd like to hear why bushing dies require neck-turning and lots of lube. I only neck-turn for one of my rifles, and don't lube the necks when using bushing dies. I do sort brass for even neck thickness, and find that works fine with bushing dies.

elliesbear,

The Lee Loader is essentially an inexpensive hand die of the same basic design. I've had great luck using them over the years, but unfortunately the selection of cartridges is limited.

Have shot the smallest groups from my Ruger 1B .22 Hornet when the brass has been neck-sized in a Lee Loader die, well under 1/2" for 5 shots at 100 yards.

Several years ago I obtained an arbor press and seat my bullets in a Lee Loader die. No screwing around with seater stems.

Thanks I do intend to get a couple of collet dies try them out. I don't know if you have read this thread from the beginning but the whole discussion was started in my effort to compare collet to bushing type dies and my desire to simplify and standardize my die sets to use the same process.

The reason I currently use the button sizer with the bushing die is because I do not turn case necks. With that being said, I would rather transfer any differences in neck thickness to the outside of the cartridge rather than the inside.

This of course is another reason why I am considering adopting the collet dies versus the bushing dies that I have been using.

As you may read above also I am considering just using a standard full length sizing die in combination with a Competition seating die and partial or FL resize as necessary for everything for further simplification since I am first and foremost hunter and certainly not a benchrest shooter.

I typically like to FL size any rounds that I am taking afield just to eliminate the variable of trying to fit a tight case in a chamber where there could be debris involved.

twofish

I like Wilson dies too, I decided to get a Wilson seater for my 7WSM because I didn't want to pay 100.00 for a Redding Comp seater.



it requires lube to turn the necks. And the bushing dies work just fine without neck turning but any variation in neck thickness is transferred to the inside and concentricity is only as good as the neck thickness...but you know that I am sure.




I read it from the beginning, I am trying to get away from neck turning and bushing dies, as long as Lee has a collet die or they make a custom die that I need. If the collet dies produce equal or less runout than bushing dies and I don't have to lube and turn necks it's a win for me.

I didn't catch the reason you are full length sizing.

Typically use full length sizing for hunting rounds because it take one variable out of the equation.

Any debris on round/in chamber coupled with a tight fitting neck sized case can spell trouble.

Chances of it happening may be slim but I have seen it before.

In my experience a shoulder bump is required at minimum after several firings of neck sized brass and as brass work hardens especially with hot loads FL sizing is required at some point anyway.

There is still likely a benefit to using a collet or bushing die to size the neck and a body die to reduce the case body. It's case life. Quite often a FL die cold works the case necks a good bit more than necessary.

Had not really thought of it in that regard Mathman. I respect your knowledge on this subject and believe your comments.

As you know I have been aspiring to simplify/standardize my reloading practices for accuracy and reliability with out having any more moving parts/bushings/dollars spent than seem necessary.

Since I am first and foremost a shooter of critters rather than paper I had begun to consider going with a two piece system (Full Length Bushing or Standard sizer and a Competition Seater) thus eliminating the separate neck sizer completely.

In light of your comments though regarding brass life perhaps I have been too hasty and need to return to the original three piece system I had been considering when studying the collet die at the start of this thread. (A Bushing or Collet Neck Sizer, Body Sizer, and a Competition Seater)

With this system I could neck size only when shooting paper or developing loads, body sizing as required for hunting loads separately while enjoy the added benefit of extending brass life as a by-product.

Thanks for the insight and helping think through this.

twofish

We're almost on the same wavelength.

My comment about brass life was only about the working of the neck. If you body size, but just enough for smooth chambering, the body of the brass will usually out last the neck even when collet sizing.

I have a rifle that does better with body and neck sized cases than it does with just neck sized. But since I only bump the shoulder a little bit I don't get the case head separation ring before I'm ready to retire the brass.

I see. Just curious as to your personal thoughts on using a FL Bushing die to neck size and bump shoulder then full length size as required? In doing this all I would be saving is the cost of body die and not sure that the compromise of Partial FL sizing is worth it.

twofish

I'm not sure I understand the highlighted phrase. A FL bushing die does FL size.

What I meant was to use the FL bushing die to neck size and just bump the shoulder when that is all you want and then use it to Full Length size the case on occasion as required or for hunting loads in my case. Thus eliminating the body only die.

I have typically not been a fan of partial sizing (neck size only and shoulder bump if wanted) with a full length die. I guess my question was do you think this is an adequate application to preserve brass life or would you suggest just using the third die (body die) for all shoulder and body sizing and forget about the two die approach all together?

Thanks,

twofish

I still don't think you're clear on how the FL bushing die works. If you have it set so the shoulder is getting bumped, then the body is getting sized too.

A body die does the sides and shoulder of the case body. A FL bushing die is a body die in effect, with a provision for holding a bushing on top to size the neck.

I think I understand that the only difference in a standard FL Die an a FL Bushing is in the neck itself. What I was trying to describe was what some call "partial full length resizing". I have always understood this to mean rather than setting a FL Die of either type to fully engage the shell holder and cam over it can be set up not to fully engage but left short so as to resize the majority of the length of the neck but only partially resize the remainder of the case. (Not fully setting the shoulder back or fully resizing the body as would be done with the die set to fully engage.)

Perhaps this is splitting hairs as I have never liked the concept anyway and felt that was really a compromise of all the tasks.

I was just curious as to your thoughts on using a FL Die in tis manner.

OK, it has been a terminology issue somewhat.

Nevertheless, I can think of only one circumstance where I'd want to fully move the shoulder and/or body back to like new dimensions anyway. That's when I'm preparing brass fired in rifle A, and I'm going to use it in rifle B without having rifle B in hand to set up optimum sizing.

The instructions included with FL size dies, in most circumstances, will have you sizing the brass a good bit more than necessary for fit and function.

Knocking the shoulder back a couple of thousandths, along with whatever body sizing comes with that, is plenty. That is full length sizing, but not overdoing it.

Agreed.

Thanks again for your input.

twofish

Heres a "wish" for 2014...but being the manufacturers are so busy I know it will never happen.
Beer makers make "light" beer.

I want die makers not to make small base dies but shoot for a "light" die. One that minimally sizes brass and has a neck area that takes a neck wall of .013" down to .003" grip.
If they'd do this the expander ball would work so minimally you wouldn't wreck runnout when pulling the ball through the neck area. Make a slick surfaced ball and you probably wouldn't need lube...maybe some kind of "delrin" expander or something.
I'd buy dies like this and set them to touch the shoulders of my cases and smile like crazy every time I used them. My old standard dies would collect dust.

twofish, that is what I said regarding the carbide button, even though it does not require lube, the FL die sizes the neck down below what is needed and the button sizes it up. The collet die and bushing die eliminates one step.

No matter what method you use, it only takes a few minutes to confirm every big-game hunting round chambers.