Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Ladder test, How, why?

Boxer,

I plan to work with 3 rifles next week with some buds. We'll pay closer attention to the extreme spread (whether statistically sig or not). Just factory hunting rigs that'll jump hunting bullets but still curious what we see for fun. We'll find velocity/pressure and then go from there.

Went into the SD & ES rabbit hole the past few days...

Pretty sure I could convince the stress lab at work to strain-gauge some barrels to run my own test of the ladder method. Interested in pressures, velocities (ES,SD), elevations, and groups to see if the "node" corresponds to a flat spot in the ladder where pressures are similar. In theory the ladder is supposed to find a tolerant charge region (similar elevation). But in order for this to happen the rifle needs to "move" in a consistent manner (whole body rifle, barrel deformation, etc). To me, this means similar pressures.

What makes me skeptical of ladders are claims that ES and SD are not important, horizontal can be ignored, and wind does not affect vertical. To be fair, not all ladderers hold all those beliefs. If ladder loads show little vertical but some horizontal, then there is something not consistent. Seems like pressure would be a good place to look.

Just not sure I want to go through the trouble to locate rifles accurate enough to test, gauge them, process the data, etc.

The reason I've been interested in ES and SD is the fact that a "few" shooters have done really well paying close attention to these. As I mentioned earlier Litz has quantified the affect of NOT paying attention to ES and SD. And I know that one of the US F-T/R shooters keeps ES below 10. Both of these guys have done well in competition, and they don't ignore SD/ES. I'm sure there are others

My assumption is that low SD and ES means consistent pressures. This requires consistent loads (brass prep, charge weights, seating, etc.), bullet engagement, etc. If you have all these ducks in a row and get low ES, the pressures should be consistent from shot to shot. This leads to consistent deformation of the barrel and consistent barrel time. It seems that "consistent" is the name of the theme with accurate loads. "Inconsistent" velocities (higher ES/SD) don't seem to jive. Most people don't have access to a stress/strain system, but they do have the ability to record velocities and ES/SD.

So what about guys that have success ignoring ES & SD? It seems that there is always a catch. They work well at certain ranges where the muzzle projection theory allows dissimilar bullet velocities to have similar POI. But they can only intersect, not have the same path. What happens at other distances? What about temperature changes using loads with higher ES/SD? How does ambient and chamber temp affect these loads that already have higher ES/SD?

Seems that low ES/SD is a good place to start although it could be tempting to run with a load that "seems" to shoot well under certain conditions even though ES/SD are high. I suspect that Litz and the others who shoot low ES/SD don't stop here. They keep going... for more consistency.

Jason

I think you have it nailed.

Boxer-

Yea, the hell with drill and tap. To much work.

Just make sure you degrease and center it up. 5 minute aught to work. Don't put it on too thick, might have to put that one front sight back on (reverse). Or get some of that quick release epoxy in case you want to change your mind. It comes in different colors also.

Site heights --hint-- I caught that! Ha! Ha!

Next time don't half-ass it and do a full polish on the brass

Man, some days I wished i wasted as much time taking pictures and measuring groups as y'all do. I've seen some stuff on the chrono before shooting Audettes as a first thing to do... that had me jumping up and donw, only to drive down to the target at 600 and find out wow... the load with a bit worse ES/SD groups twice as good. You sit there and ask.. how can that be? It shouldn't be. But there it is. On paper and repeatable on paper if you shot it again. You learn to trust results. Not hypotehtical results.

Really when you deal with ES and SD, its a pure fantasy to assume the best of them produce the smallest group.

If you ran simply by what your chrono told you, i'd beat you at every match we shot in.

But no one ever said that you ignore it. Just that you have to combine what you see on paper as being true, vs what you see on the chrono.

I've said that I run the chrono at the start and at the end, and thats all I feel that is really needed. Paper never lies. Especially when you shoot it continually after the Audette. If you happen to get a vertical shot caused by wind, then it will show up again, and again and again at times as you finish your load work and start shooting for real.

Rost,

Bryan Litz and Darrell Buell have competed at the national and world level and they do have faith in low ES/SD... AND paper results as you said. I don't think they rely just on ES/SD... they seem to rely on both. Buell has stated that his goal is an ES of 10 or less for 1000 yard shooting. You know as well as I do how his team has done, with .308 rifles of all things, at 1000 yards. Just as hard to argue with the rocket scientist, who is also doing quite well in competition his ownself. They have both done well in competition, for several years.

You have a system that works for you, but what if you took it one step farther? Use your ladders to get good paper results AND strive for low ES/SD, always? Maybe you are stopping your load development too soon? For all I know, maybe you are competing against Buell, Litz, and others. If you're beating these guys then rock on!

Jason

Jason,

You seem like a guy that just likes to talk about things. Mental beatoffitude

You should actually try all of the methods folks have spoken about here and report back.

No offense.

Sorry about the Ebonics. It just seems you understand that [bleep] better

First two shots in the morning.
Just to get the barrel dirty.
That its not in the center of the gong is all me.
300 SAUM
Nosler case.
210g Berger LRBT.
60.4g Ramshot Hunter
TULA Mag primer.
2806fps.
The load comes straight from my ladder test.
Distance.
600 yards.

dave

No way Dave.

Anyone who can understand Ebonics knows that the scaffolding test shot while standing on a ladder is the dumbest stupidest smoky pretend load development crapola dreamed up from some dumbfhukk's imagine EVAH

I don't know ebonics, but I do know that a two-shot group don't mean squat.

4th,

Funnier than [bleep] to me,that the Smoke And Ladder Faction will jump through all hoops and then roll their eyes at ES/SD. This schit is hilarious!

Minimal ES/SD,can ONLY come by way of consistency. Let the dumb [bleep] chase Ladders,I want consistency.

Agree.

I never had a chrony with a "Havn't got a clue" mode.

Never said I ignore teh ES/SD. And typically about 10 or less for ES is what one ends up with for the best load.

The question is, would you blindly shoot loads chasing ES/SD best figures?

I won't. Its gotta be the best of both worlds. And in the end, since you are competing or shooting at game, the results are what you are after, not the supposed results.

The next interesting question... how to you strive for ES/SD? I mean how do you chase the best?

I've shot against Litz many moons ago, good shooter, and I don't recall how I fared against him. I have not shot against others since 2004 as my father became very ill and finally died, he reminded my wife and I that mountains are not getting any shorter... and so we went back to hunting instead of competing with our time and funds.

Jeff

Enough said Jeff. I understand.

Jason

Rick,

Sounds like you're giving up, again ?

Instead of debating the merits of your Holy Grail(s), you throw half-ass jabs then want me to test your methods for you? And report back?! Are you serious? I thought you were the ladder salesman?

Ok, if time permits I'll see if we can run some Holy Grails for you this weekend. No promises though since it ain't my powder, primers, and bullets.

Jason

I"m not sure how one uses a ladder/audette/find pressure for more than a good initial quick run of where you are and where to further chase, but 10 shots is easier than 10 groups of 5 and realizing after 2 shots of some of those groups of 5... you'd be wasting time to shoot the other 3.

Though as I"ve noted, taken the best center of a node from the first 10 shots and been well under MOA and ran with it on a hunting rifle that ever since.. has never shot above MOA... done that a couple of times actually.

But for serious accuracy you tend to do more work. And even when you've finished, you still have to chase the barrel as it ages, both MV, seating depth etc...

Along the way while firing groups etc...I may be tweaking for a long time at matches, with primer swaps, neck tension, etc.... and as I"ve noted that might actually take a couple of matches or more at full distance for me to get enough data to prove its worht changing a component of the system, be it going from .242 neck to .243 neck etc...

Jeff

'475,

It is intellesting,that which can realized in hasty order...though I reckon there are some who's enthralled with chasing their tails.

Fortunately,they often cain't know they are doing so and will go to great lengths to "explain" and "support" that chasin',under the supposition it bears fruit.

Funny schit!










Gibby,

I like Sleepers,because they crack me up. My 69's rear bridge ain't D&T'd,only wearing a dovetail for the rather "unique" spring loaded OEM Irons it's fraught with. Due the ejection pattern,a rail or similar is out...so High Zoot Irons would be funny and effective.

Have seen chronographs with a "Ladders Is Funny" Mode.

Laffin'!









RDW,

I was enjoying the ruse,when The Paper Hat Brigade was trying to talk about bore maintenance. Though in fairness,the gals wasn't able to gain any traction there either.

A shame they punted so quickly there,as it was gonna get funnier than [bleep] too.(grin)

Funny how it actually works.










rost',

Jeezus [bleep]...give it a break toots. First you felt compelled to come clean that you were [bleep] utterly clueless for the 20yrs you thought you shot and now you wanna drive that home,by citing you ain't shot in a decade since. That ain't hardly [bleep] fair,to unleash that much oblivious humor in one [bleep] Thread. Laffin'!

Lemme be clear again,everyone understands your glaring ineptitude and you really needn't pinpoint your dumbfhukktirtude again. That being said,here's to the sanctity of your being powerless in that refrain.

Bless your heart.

Laffin'!









7mm,

I'd be slow to wager the Farm...onna pair.(grin)









'lia,

Fascinating that at all stops,you default immediately to cramming things in your mouth and ass. I reckon you feel farrrrrrr more comfy in that firsthand insight,than you do anything else. Congratulations?!?

Funnier yet,that betwixt all stops,you's tryin' to perfect your Imagination and Pretend,so as to bolster your Imitation(s).

You are doing "great".

Laffin'!









'pole,

In fairness...(2) pokes is twice as many as a one-shot group.(grin)

I believe the reason I submitted a well placed brace at 500yd+ Chickum Eggs,was to touch upon a couple/few things. They'd include,Accuracy,Precision,veddy veddy modest ES/SD and some wind reading skeelz to boot.

To mix it up a smidge,I submitted a hasty trio at 700yds+,to touch on a few more,which included Break-in,Contours and high X power steering devices.

I know it weren't even close to fair,but it did/do well exceed funnier than [bleep]...despite the Window Lickers missin' all of it.

Kiss,find pressure and rock on.









4th,

The best part is,'lia was never [bleep] even "in" it...and she was the only one who didn't know same. Laffin'!

Where do these incredibly dumb [bleep] come from?!?

Just WOW!

B,

I'd rather not ladder myself. Seems like 84 pages of chasing the Holy Grail!

J

Jason,

You've asked for "data" and such to prove the "science" of the Audette and harmonics. Where are the same questions about the other methods?

Where is the science that proves that every rifle with every bullet/powder combination will shoot its best on the lands with a charge of powder juuuuust under the point where pressure is found?