Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots #1 Hornet or Bee?

Which is better, more desirable, faster, flatter, easier......or what have you?

Any opinions on a relatively idle topic?

The Bee is a bit better, but brass is much more expensive and probably harder to come by.
The Hornet gets a lot of criticism due to it's old design, but in a good falling block like my Browning, it's as accurate as I could want. LiL Gun is the hot powder right now, but I get excellent accuracy with H110, 40gr. Vmaxes, and F100M primers. There are other powders that look good in the manuals, but I'm happy with what I use.
If you need more power or range, you should probably get something in the .222 family.

Fireball! Oops no FB's in #1's

Sorry,


DMc

Punch the Hornet K, and you're in good.

The Bee would be a lot of fun, but brass is a PITA.

Just get both.

The Bee gets another 100 fps or so, but as several people have already pointed out brass is hard to find. Back in the 1990's I shot a friend's No. 1B .218 Bee and decided I had to have one, but then started looking at the price and availability of brass and got a 1B Hornet instead.

While a lot of "traditional" Hornet powders are just as accurate as Li'l Gun, the pressures developed by Li'l Gun produce as much or more velocity at MUCH lower pressures, which results in much longer brass life in the thin Hornet cases.

In my experience, whether the K-Hornet is worth it depends on the rifle. Many Hornet repeaters have magazines so short they can't use longer plastic-tipped bullets, like the 40-grain Ballistic Tip and V-Max and 39-grain Blitzking. All three will shoot noticeably flatter and hit harder than any soft-point or hollow-point, and work great in my No. 1B, which more than balanced the extra velocity obtainable from a CZ K-Hornet I had for a whole. And brass life is plenty long, thanks to using Li'l Gun and neck-sizing.

However, if somebody rechambered a 1B (or Browning Low Wall) to K-Hornet it would probably be the best of all. Unfortunately, both rifles are rising in price as collector's items, and rechambering would probably bring resale price down.

I have owned a couple of Ruger #3's and a #1-B in .22 Hornet. I found the #1 to be especially fussy. I also have a Browning Lo-Wall in .22 K-Hornet (rechamber) and it is VERY accurate, and a special favorite.

I purchased a #1 in .218 Bee on closeout when Ruger discontinued them. I immeadiately had the barrel cut to 23 5/8". Other than that it remains unfired. (An oversight I intend to rectify shortly...) I almost believe if I had to do it over, I'd get a .222 or .223 and merely load reduced loads.

I have another Lo-Wall that is NIB, and it awaits being sent to the "Wizard of Turtle Rd" to be rebored to .25/20 W.C.F.

GH

Interesting about your 1B Hornet. Mine has always been one of my least fussy rifles ever since I took it out of the box, brand-new! Also had a Ruger No. 3 Hornet for a while that shot the same way, with the same loads.

The pressure thing was my thought too, but so far I've not gotten the accuracy with it I do with H110. Still working on that.
The Low Wall was one of the really good deals I've made in a gun-trading "career" noted for dumb moves. Really nice wood, fine accuracy, and just a really nice package overall. When I go, my sons will probably have a shoot-out over it.
I paid $695 for it it 2000, and the Gunbroker price for a new one is about $1500. I not tempted even a little bit to sell.

What charges, bullets, primers have you been using with Li'l Gun?

I have owned four or five Hornets over the years, two at the moment. H110 was the best until Lil'Gun hit the Market. I never realized the potential the Hornet had until i starting using Hornady 40 gr V-Max with 13 gr's of Lil'Gun, this combination turned the Hornet into a real killing Machine with Vel running close on the heels of the 222 Rem. The Hornet is the answer to the rimfire shortage of ammo.

40gr. VMax over 13gr. LiLGun w/Rem. 7 1/2s. I didn't even record the groups as they weren't up to snuff compared to the ones with H110.

11.1 gr H110, the same VMaxes seated out to 1.922 WW brass and F100Ms went .324 .342 and .548 for three shots.

I have to admit, the LiLGun loads were done in a regular Lee loader vs. the Lee Collet dies used with the H110 loads. I have done redone the LG loads in the collet dies, but am waiting for a good day to try them out. I want the LilGun to work, for the reason you mentioned and also to simplify my supply situation.

I'm also looking to try the 30gr. Barnes VGs and need a nice turkey load using Speer 46gr. FPs. Also want to try MP300 as the data I've seen looks good. I haven't found any of that yet.

Actually, the smallest groups I've shot with my 1B were loaded with a Lee Loader. The LL usually results in very straight ammo, since they're essentially the same kind of hand-die often used by benchrest shooters, if not quite so precisely made. But maybe yours doesn't seat the V-Max very straightly. That can happen with some bullets, whether in the LL or standard seating dies.

Groups with 40-grain Ballistic Tips, 13.0 Li'l Gun and CCI BR-4's averaged under 1/2", and they were 5-shot groups, not 3-shot.
10-shot groups with the CCI 450 small-rifle magnum primer and the same bullet and powder go around 3/4". In fact the 450 gets the best accuracy with Li'l Gun of any primer tried. Have had similar results in 2 other Hornets and one K-Hornet.

Can't get enough Li'l Gun in the Hornet case to work consistently with the 30 VG in my rifle. Around 12.5-13.0 grains of H110 gets the best accuracy in the 1B at 3200-3300 fps.

10.0 grains of IMR4227 gets right around 2000 fps with 45-46 grain bullets, usually with excellent accuracy. You can even drop the charge some for even less meat damage.

This has all been interesting. I was hoping there might be plenty of random, unsolicited ideas thrown out. One of the things I've wondered about - I have both rifles- is whether the Hornet might be a little bit less fussy in a hand fed rifle like the #1s. The long taper of the Hornet seems a bit less fussy than the Bee when it comes to needing a bit of help chambering. It could be the dies, or it might be my use of them, but I seem to get more Bee rounds which need help chambering than Hornet rounds.

I forgot to mention that I also have acquired a 1-A in .22 Hornet. When I got that, the "B" was sacrificed to buy the 1-B in .218 Bee. (I already had a T/C Contender in .218 Bee)

I always wanted a .22 Hornet with a 1~14" twist rather than the 1~16". Seems to me to be a better mousetrap.

GH

Klik,

Logically, I would think that the Bee would be less fussy and more accurate, only because you can adjust your dies to headspace on the shoulder. And I'm not sure you can do that with the Hornet.

GH

Just so happens I've got an unopened can of Dupont IMR 4227 on hand. What primers do you use for that load? (and the H110 Varmint Grenade load).

I think I have a couple hundred BR4s somewhere for the LiLGun loads. Hope so, as the selection in stores is a little thin lately.

I started using the pistol primers for most loads after reading Ross Seyfried's pair of Hornet pieces about 2001 and, as I generally don't dink around too much after finding something that works, stayed with them. Most Hornet data I see uses the SR primers for everything, which may explain why the results often aren't as good as they might be.

Thanks for the suggestions, John. Even if I don't get a whack at a turkey this fall, there's always fox squirrels.

While the Bee is a might faster (100 fps or so), I doubt that the woodchucks, crows or other small varmints ever realize the "difference".

The Hornet is also a lot more popular which results in lower priced and much more available brass for reloading.

The Hornet is claimed to be fairly "quiet", too... a big "+" in the more populated areas.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

That was my thought as well when I originally bought the rifle years ago (when brass was relatively plentiful.) I suspect it's mostly me, but I seem to have the dies set just where I want them when the brass has not been loaded yet, but once the bullets are seated they sometimes need a bit of persuasion to load. While it isn't all that hard to get them to drop right in, I've been a bit reluctant to give those cases too much room for fear of them getting away from me and splitting their breeches prematurely. The line is a fine one it seems, at least with the RCBS dies I have. I suppose I might spring for a set of Reddings at some point just to see if they match my chamber a bit better. (Or I can just play with the Hornet for now. )

I'd lean toward a #1 in the Bee as well, since the case is already "improved" as compared to the K hornet, and you can shoot away and still leave the rifle original. The brass indeed won't be easy, but you can make it from .25-20 cases.

OR

the current #1A is a .222, and that caliber was chambered in the early #1's as well.

But .223's are common in both #1V and B, and .223 brass is going to be easier to find than any of them.

But a #1V in the Fireball would be the cat's meow

Pappy,

Speer did some research with the Hornet a few years ago and concluded the best use of small pistol primers was with relatively small amounts of fast-burning powders. Their theory was rifle primers tended to dislodge the bullet in the case neck slightly before the powder charge expanded enough to do the job. With a case full of powder (say 12+ grains) the rifle primers larger flame didn't have the same effect. Or at least that's what I recall reading.

I used CCI 500 small pistol primers for the IMR4227 loads. Started with 8.5 grains with the 45-grain Remington round-nose bullet, figuring that qualified as a relatively small amount of fast-burning powder. Don't know if the primer had a major effect, but accuracy was very good and velocity around 1700 fps. Essentially I was trying to duplicate .22 Magnum ballistics.

Have used the 13.0 Li'l Gun load with CCI BR4's in three Hornets and one K-Hornet, and the worst accuracy was still under an inch for 5-shot groups at 100.

Ran a test a couple years ago with 4 different primers and 13.0 Li'l Gun and 40-grain V-Max's. The best accuracy was with CCI 450's, next-best with BR4's, 3rd-best with CCI 500 pistol primers, and the worst with Federal 205 Match small-rifle primers. All, however, shot well enough to kill ground squirrels at 150 yards with every shot.

Probably the real answer is that it doesn't pay to get too dogmatic about primers in the Hornet, either way!

I use Remington 7.5 BR primers in my Hornets , but just picked up 1000 CCI 450 Mag's, so may try them for accuracy with Lil'Gun. I also have three or four hundred Hornady 35 gr V-Max's but haven't tried them in my Hornets

My Contender Super14 stainless Hornet gives consistent 3/4 to 1" 5 shot @ 100yd with the 35gr VG over 13gr Lil Gun in Win cases and Rem 7 1/2 primers. Also with the 40gr VMax moly and the NBT. I use the Lee Collet dies and have a SWFA 10x42 30mm tube with mil dot on it. There is so little recoil I have no issue with eye relief. Many a rifle shooter has been suprised with the accuracy.

I've owned three Hornets, one of them an Anschutz with a Match 54 action. I've only needed to own one .218Bee and that was in a Ruger No.1S (With the medium weight barrel).

I could never get handloaded Hornet ammo to shoot below an inch. The Anschutz came close but only with factory ammo. Good old W-W white box.

The Bee was the most accurate rifle I owned. Handloaded bulk buy W-W 46 grain HP's safely went 3,000 fps over my chrono. I put a lot of my success with the Bee down to the rifle which has a very strong action.

I'd love to see a small double made in .218Bee and regulated for the old 50 grain Norma FMJ's.

The other lesson to be learned is to have a couple of .357s around to use the powder and primers that don't make the cut in the Hornet! My revolvers are pretty omnivorous.

Thanks again for the ideas, John.

Klikitarik: I have a matching pair of Ruger #1-B's in 22 Hornet and in 218 Bee - both are scoped with Leupold 6x18 variable scopes.
I bought them both new.
I much prefer the 218 Bee for its accuracy and velocity and it was MUCH, MUCH, MUCH easier to develop loads for!
I would have sold my Ruger #1-B in 22 Hornet long ago except it has exceptional wood on it.
After MANY years of trial and tribulation I finally got my #1-B in 22 Hornet to shoot "half-assed" (.900" to 1.000" groups).
My Bee easily attained accuracy better than that.
As much as I love Ruger #1's I would think LONG and HARD before ever buying another in 22 Hornet.
Ignoring my personal experience the #1-B's in both 22 Hornet and 218 Bee command interest on the resale markets!
If a person was buying one to make a buck on then that is another matter.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Had two hornets. Anchutz and a win. 43. The arnie shot well, I got rid of three ( a .22LR, .222, and a Hornet.) because of the rollover stock. Th Americanized stock had not been invented as yet. It was fine off the bench, but a pain to stalk with.

The sweet little 43 just did not have it. I bought the Marlin 1894 in Bee when it came out. It likes the WW hollow point and Speer flat nose. I can't get the light pointed bullets to feed. There isn't enough recoil to present a magazine problem.

Brass is no problem to me. I got 500 new WW pierces of brass when I got the gun. I think I still have at least 350 pieces unused.

I'm sorely tempted by a 1S. Winchester used to do a run on brass annually around June IIRC. The industry mess may have stopped that for now.

Best wishes,

Jack

Something about a single shot begs a rimmed cartridge so I would go with the Bee. In my experience Bee brass has been available only on a seasonal basis so it is prudent to stock up when opportunity knocks. I think the Hornet is a great cartridge...........to blow out and neck down to a smaller caliber.

I had a No. 1S in 218 Bee and lucked into a big pile of once fired brass for it (800 pieces, as I recall), so brass was never an issue. That rifle liked W296 with the 40 gr V-max. When a friend of mine mentioned there was a custom No. 3 in 22 K-Hornet for sale locally, I couldn't resist and bought it too. I had the feeling I probably bought it out from under him and since he was interested in my 218 Bee, he owns it now (along with most of the brass - I kept some, just in case... ). The K-Hornet thrives on a full case of Lil Gun with about any bullet I've tried, but the 40 gr V-max has been the best so far.

I have #1's in K-Hornet and Bee. If I were forced to eliminate one, it would be the K.

toby2,

So you'd go with the .218 Bee over the Hornet in a Ruger No. 1 because the Bee case is rimmed? Or am I misreading your post?

I like the Hornet necked down and blown out too, but it is very definitely a rimmed case.

I tried three primers today with the #1B 22 Hornet. Win. Sm Pistol, Rem 7.5 Sm Pistol and CCI 400 Sm Rifle.
All were crappy 5 shot groups at 5 inches all over hell at 2900 fps with 10gr Lil Gun. That with a 40 gr. Berger HP.
The Privi factory load with a 45gr. power point style measures 2600 fps and shot about 1.5 inch 5 shot groups.
So my work is cut out for me.

I don't see how you can get 13 gr of LG in the case. That must be one heckuva compressed load.

Never had ANY problem getting 13.0 grains of Li'l Gun in Winchester .22 Hornet cases. It definitely fills them up but there is no problem seating 40-grain plastic-tips, whether Hornady V-Maxes, Nosler Ballistic Tips or Varmageddons, or Sierra BlitzKings.
In fact I just tried it again, in a new Winchester case, and the powder ended up about 1/8" below the case mouth. The charge fits even better in fired, neck-sized cases, which is how I usually size 'em.

What overall length are the cartridges? Depending on the specific plastic-tipped bullet, in my rifle they run 1.90 to 1.95. Many handloaders is either load bullets to the maximum SAAMI overall length of 1.72 (which is meant to fit the length of most magazines, and doesn't have anything to do with accuracy), or firmly believe in the old suggestion of at least one caliber of seating depth. In my rifle NONE of the 40's are seated that deeply, because there's no need to, especially in a single-shot. But I've loaded plenty of 40-grain hollow-points and soft-points at 1.72" with 13.0 grains of Li'l Gun for use in repeaters as well.

Also, many Hornet handloaders don't bother measuring bullet concentricity with the case. (In fact that's true of most handloaders in general.) Hornet bullets are relatively short, with very short shanks. Heavier .224 bullets with longer shanks tend to straighten themselves out in the bore, but short-shanked, light bullets do not. This is why checking for bullet alignment is critical in the Hornet, and other cartridges that use light, short-shanked bullets like the various .17's.

Another factor is that such short, low-BC bullets blow around in the wind considerably, far more than 50-55 grain .224" bullets. Even a 5-mph wind (which many shooters would call "calm") will blow a 40-grain Berger at 2800 fps off an inch at 100 yards. Unless you use wind flags in a 5 mph "calm" wind, or actually shoot in a dead calm, accuracy testing is useless.

Forgot to add that one reason factory ammo outshoots handloads in some rifles is because factory ammo's cases are normally very straight, since they haven't been resized in typical handloading dies. Thus the bullets end up seated straighter than in many handloads. Have seen this a bunch of times over the years.

Aw, geez! Everything was feeling all peachy and you had to bring that up! Now I'm really back to square one again. I shot the donor (218) which I bought to convert to a 225 Winchester (since I have many boxes of factory ammo). Shooting the donor was a bad idea 'cause then I needed another 22 CF I could have rechambered. And that's how I came into possession of the Hornet as well (with a better trigger even). And now I have to think about straight(er) bullets and short bearing lengths. It is almost more than a loony should have to bear. (Never mind the fact that rabbits which stop too long at 100 yards - give or take- are liable to lose whatever occupies the space between their ears with rather boring regularity). I rather like the 45 Sierra spitzer Varminter for that duty - just in case of neck-ranging stray shots; less explosive.

I should add- in these times of difficult rimfire 22 ammo availability- that it has finally dawned on me why having several pounds of Lil' Gun and A1680 wasn't a dumb idea. It happened over a short span of time that I accumulated a few pounds- not really realizing that my stash of quicker powders had grown. One pound the equivalent in Hornet ammo of a brick of 22s. That's a good thing I think

Thanks MD for the info, once again. I'll be at it until I figure this out. Just scored 500 pieces of new brass so I am committed.

It appears that Berger has discontinued the Varmint Grenades as there is no mention of them on their website or in the catalog. Too bad for me, as I loaded a few over H110 a while back and was waiting for good weather to test them. If they shoot real good, I'll really be bummed.

Yeah that JB is such a killjoy; always injecting logic, science, and experience into the conversation. Who the hell does he think he is?

Now that I think about it, it's probably a good thing that Berger's not making Varmint Grenades. Randy Brooks would be pissed!

Need more coffee.

Aw, geez! Everything was feeling all peachy and you had to bring that up! Now I'm really back to square one again. I shot the donor (218) which I bought to convert to a 225 Winchester (since I have many boxes of factory ammo). Shooting the donor was a bad idea 'cause then I needed another 22 CF I could have rechambered. And that's how I came into possession of the Hornet as well (with a better trigger even). And now I have to think about straight(er) bullets and short bearing lengths. It is almost more than a loony should have to bear. (Never mind the fact that rabbits which stop too long at 100 yards - give or take- are liable to lose whatever occupies the space between their ears with rather boring regularity). I rather like the 45 Sierra spitzer Varminter for that duty - just in case of neck-ranging stray shots; less explosive.[/quote]

Look for the more common .223 chambered #1 to rechamber to .225.

I have 1 currently under going surgery. Hope to be able to try it soon.

Flyer

I did exactly that about a yr ago. (Tho' I've not fired it as yet...) I purchased a Winchester (Japanese) 1885 in .223 Rem. Had it rechambered to .225 Win.

IIRC, the twist on the 1885 is 1~12" which I think would be more forgiving than the 1~16" twist of the Hornet. I don't know what the twist is on the .218, as I can't find any reference in all my reference material. Not even in old Ruger catalogs. But I believe standard twist for the Bee is 1~14". For my money, I'd think that the .225 Win would shine with 55-69 gr. bullets. If I want to shoot 75 gr. or heavier, I have several rifles in .243 Win and 6mm Rem...

GH

bigwhoop,

Of course, yet another factor is that some older .22 Hornets simply don't shoot, whether due to smaller bores, extra-large throats, or whatever. And some rifles may also be defective, for whatever reason.

I've only had four Hornets, a T/C Contender Carbine barrel, No. 1B and No. 3 Rugers, and a CZ 527 rechambered to K-Hornet. It was easy in all four to develop loads that grouped into 3/4" or less for 5 shots (not 3) at 100 yards.

In fact I didn't even develop a load for the No. 3, just shot the same handloads I use in the No. 1, and they grouped the same way. If Ruger changed the chamber dimensions between 1986 (when the No. 3 was discontinued) and 2001, when I got my new 1B, there was no indication of it in the way the No. 3 shot.

However, a friend just purchased a Sako .22 Hornet, and he couldn't get it to group into less than 2" at 100 yards. His other Hornet is a pre-'64 Model 70 and it shoots like all my Hornets have. So darned if I know!

I had an early Low Wall Winchester Hornet, where someone had rechambered a .22 LR barrel. It did nothing worthwhile, and I finally dumped it. A Ruger 77 stainless was better, but still not great, and also was sold. I finally bought a Browning/miroku Low Wall, and despite lawyer-proof trigger, it did shoot very well, especially with the 13gr of Lil'Gun load. IIRC the 40 gr Ballistic Tip shot fine in it.

Some of the old manuals pointed out that early Hornets had .223 bores, and may not shoot well with .224 bullets. I suspect my old Low Wall had that issue.

Some companies still make slightly smaller bullets for use in older Hornets, but unfortunately nobody makes plastic-tips for smaller bores.

Those Browning Low Wall Hornets usually shoot pretty darn well! Well, all the Low Walls so. I had a .243 for a while that shot like crazy--but then somebody wanted it more than I did.

Pretty wood too. Much nicer than what's coming in under the Winchester name, at least the ones I've seen online.
When I bought mine, I had the pick of the three left after the guy behind the counter picked his. I'd like to see that one, 'cause mine's pretty nice.

The buttstock on my .243 was pure fiddleback, from the action to the buttplate!

I read someplace that it's Claro. Some of the Low Wall Traditional Hunters and Browning 53s I see on line are pretty enough to make me fall off the " no more guns" wagon.

Like I was ever on it!

Gary

The wood on my Win. Hornet LW is crap, so is the finish, checkering, metal fit and the Schnabel is so big (or the sling stud is too far forward) that a bipod won't fit. The wood, fit and finish on the browning models is light years ahead. I looked into new factory wood and it was way more than I paid new for the rifle a year ago.-Muddy

In the interest of creating lower cost rimfire load substitutes..........and yeah I know we're already 4� in by the time the primer is seated...... but any load ideas on light loads that work readily and somewhat universally? (I really hope there is never a better time than now to fire up the Lyman 22 cal mold I bought a couple of years ago in case that is part of a solution- and maybe I need to dig out a Ken Waters publication.)

There will be an article in the upcoming HANDLOADER on that very subject. The on-line version should be out any day now.

You need to buy some cheaper primers. I got 5000 Tula small-rifle primers for about 3 cents apiece from Midway a month or two ago, and that included shipping!

I have an old Speer manual #10, and they do show reduced loads for SR4759 in the .222 and .222 magnum (strangely enough, not for the .223). My copies of Ken Waters Pet Loads are packed away somewhere, but IIRC he described some as well.

Ken Howell's book Designing and Forming Custom Cartridges describes a wildcat named the ".22 Flea" which is a .32 ACP necked to .22 Caliber Holds 13 grains of water, versus a .22 Hornet's 21.

I guess one could neck a .25 ACP to .22, as well