I think not. Cattle guards are designed to stop walking animals, not running jumping animals. We have had several ornery cows that jump the cattle guard from time to time. You would have to make a real wide cattle guard, and then your just going to end up with a lot if injured deer.
I have seen mule deer tiptoe across a cattle guard in Central OR. It was a real crackup and I am sorry I did not have a camera.
Generally they will just jump a fence.
Me too.....and I agree.
Originally Posted by BrentD
I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.
I have measured big mule deer buck jumps at something like 20 feet (on a full tilt escape) and my cattle guard here would be easy jumping for them if they needed to go over it. Even a doubled guard might not work if it was a big deer and in a hurry.
A six foot fence seems to defeat the elk here, and they seem to be intimidated by the cattle guard even though I think they easily could clear it if they wished to do so.
You may need to get a couple of deer hating dogs and leave them out at night.
The funniest cattle guard I saw was when the bull tiptoed across the cattle guard and under the pipe we had across the middle we used as a gate. He walked down the road to a large rain puddle, got a drink, turned around and came back the same way. It looked like he had done it many times and the cattle guard didn't slow him one bit.
Would an electric gate work for your neighbors and you? I think I saw and electric gate that operates with garage door opener type. Not sure where. I have draft horses that just walk across cattle guards so I was looking into a gate.
Koehn Drive Thru Electric Gates This looked good to me.
Cut foil tabs of reynolds wrap, lace em with peanut butter wrap them over the fence. Do this intermittantly the whole length.
It will entice the bastards to lick the foil. After a few times of getting their asses busted, it will condition them to avoid that fence and anything in it.
Works for whitetails in polygon exclusions
Not sure about 2 mile runs. I might condense and contain the immediate area around the grapes. Unless you've got 2 miles of grapes. Then youre a baller for sure and don't need our advice. Just hire a helicopter eradication team.
Would an electric gate work for your neighbors and you? I think I saw and electric gate that operates with garage door opener type. Not sure where. I have draft horses that just walk across cattle guards so I was looking into a gate.
Koehn Drive Thru Electric Gates This looked good to me.
Looked into electric gates but won't work because my neighbor has a home based business and has lots of deliveries. Also electric gates are very expensive, probably about the same as fencing both sides of the road.
The cattle guards here don't slow these little East Texas whitetails down at all. Even the 10' wide ones, they just hop right across them. A 20' wide one? I don't know. Never seen one built. Most of the ones here are built out of 2"-3" heavy wall pipe to take the weight of truck & tractor traffic.
Best wishes on your adventure!
Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
Matt, Is there another way to keep the deer out? I don't recall seeing vineyards with deer fence here in the valley. Maybe there just aren't as many deer and it's less expensive to suffer the loss than buy fence.
�Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program." -- Milton Friedman
CCCC: Numerous times I have seen Antelope jump across cattle guards. In fact last fall a rutting Buck Antelope jumped the cattle guard on our paved drive to get into my yard. He spent an hour or so in our yard and then jumped the cattle guard to exit our few acres. Again this jumping was done off of and back onto pavement! I don't mind the Whitetailed Deer, Mule Deer and Antelope that often traverse my lawns but the cattle in the adjoining fields must be kept out. I have NEVER seen cattle jump a traditional round pipe with spaces in between cattle guard. Hold into the wind VarmintGuy
Every vineyard in this area has deer fence and it is needed. New vines (11,000) which we will be planting in June are especially vulnerable.
What are they using for fences? The vineyard here use a double row of 4' high fencing, spaced about 4'-5' apart. The deer won't jump parallel fencing for some reason.
Yes, it's expensive, but so is losing your new vines.
Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
Contact your local animal lover groups, they will have a bunch of goofy ideas on this. None will work, but there is entertainment value in seeing their clueless nonsense.
Why couldn't the gate just have a button any driver could push? That would get rid of remote control, radios, probably a few relays too. It isn't for security against people. and would it have to be closed all year, or even all day?
Why couldn't the gate just have a button any driver could push? That would get rid of remote control, radios, probably a few relays too. It isn't for security against people. and would it have to be closed all year, or even all day?
Wouldn't even have to be a button. PIR (Passive Infra Red) sensor(s) set above deer height on both sides of the gate(s) would allow vehicles to come and go without undue delay. Cheap, plentiful, and easy to install with any electric gate system. There are also in-ground loop sensors that will do the same thing and only open for vehicular traffic. Slightly more expensive, but reliable and invisible.
Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
Spank, don't believe your telling all. You put in a vineyard with a road right down the middle of it so delivery trucks just drive by your grapes vines all day? Or do you have two fields left and right. Just fence in each field, put a gate on them, then open and close the gate with a latch each time. 8 foot high fence by the way. This is a tax write off so don't worry about the expense guy. Get it done. Lots of money to come up with your 2 buck chuck. Get used to it.
no sense in spending all that money to stop a few deer
dig a shallow pit in the soil
lay down in it and cover everything but your eyes and nose with loose soil
when the deer come in to eat, jump up and yell "boogedy,boogedy, boogedy"
deer problem solved, deer communicate, in short order you'll be known as one not to be trifled with.
oh and if they get a few grapes, oh well those were probably sour ones anyway
I'm sure your people will tell you this is indeed a foolproof plan
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
Every vineyard in this area has deer fence and it is needed. New vines (11,000) which we will be planting in June are especially vulnerable.
What are they using for fences? The vineyard here use a double row of 4' high fencing, spaced about 4'-5' apart. The deer won't jump parallel fencing for some reason.
Yes, it's expensive, but so is losing your new vines.
Ed
Pretty much the same here except 5-6 foot tall with deer and rabbit wire below. Yes it is expensive but grapes are a high value crop and need protecting. Next comes bird netting, not nearly as expensive but labor intensive.
I am having trouble figuring how you need two miles to go around 10 acres... boxing in 10 square acres individually eats up about a mile and a half of fence...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
I think not. Cattle guards are designed to stop walking animals, not running jumping animals. We have had several ornery cows that jump the cattle guard from time to time. You would have to make a real wide cattle guard, and then your just going to end up with a lot if injured deer.
I have seen cows walk across cattle gaps. Most do not, but some learn to walk them.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
I am having trouble figuring how you need two miles to go around 10 acres... boxing in 10 square acres individually eats up about a mile and a half of fence...
It's not just the perimeter there is an easement running through and cross fencing. It's probably not two miles that was just a WAG. What is not a WAG is the two quotes I got each for about $29,000.00.
If I can gate the road at both ends I can save about 2250' of fencing and five internal gates.
A square 10 acres is 660'x660' total perimeter is 2640'
You missed the part where I said individually... 208' to the side of a square acre leaves just over a mile and a half to go around ten of them separately...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
bump gates don't work for trucks with long trailers.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
The two miles includes perimeter and cross fencing. Total enclosed area will be about ten acres.
If you have 10 acres the perimeter fence is more or less 2600 feet. That works out to .5 miles. Where the heck is the other 1.5 miles of fence going?
Like I said there is a road easement through the center which means both sides of the road must be fenced (if no gates). That is a little over half a mile. The total property is 18 acres and also contains a winery, warehouse, tasting room and our residence. If it were a simple rectangle it would be simple.
Simple, build a bridge over the ROW, or a tunnel under it.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
Rivers actually do make pretty good fences. Until they freeze over....
Yesterday we spotted a dead cow out a sandbar/riverbank. Thought oh chit, WTF. Walked up to it and wasn't our cow. Got washed in when the ice went out.
Fish and Game has been on the river, probably thinks it ours. They can clean it up with the jet boat, that or the flies will get it.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Don't mind the deer in the winter. Nothing for them to eat.
Had the fence contractor out today and it looks like I'm going with a nice wrought iron auto entry gate and a bump gate on the other end. This will save over 2,000 feet of wire fence and give us an impressive entryway.
I always wanted to live in a gated community and soon we will.
The two miles includes perimeter and cross fencing. Total enclosed area will be about ten acres.
2miles of fence to enclose 10 acres ? drunken indians or some on cant read the tape 1/2 x 1/2 mile square= 160 acres that's 2 miles total fence. if your perimeter fence is deer tight , you won't need such in the cross fence for the grapes to grow on ?
The two miles includes perimeter and cross fencing. Total enclosed area will be about ten acres.
2miles of fence to enclose 10 acres ? drunken indians or some on cant read the tape 1/2 x 1/2 mile square= 160 acres that's 2 miles total fence. if your perimeter fence is deer tight , you won't need such in the cross fence for the grapes to grow on ?
spanker was WAGgin....
Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.
funny as hell someone would spend so much money setting up such an expensive thing as a vineyard and then beotch bout the cost of fencing to protect it from deer which has to be a small fraction of the investment.....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
you know a guy could have a lot of fun sitting out there with his rifle, just saying in TX deer damaging crops are fair game with a call to the right abc office.
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
God bless Texas----------------------- Old 300 I will remain what i am until the day I die- A HUNTER......Sitting Bull Its not how you pick the booger.. but where you put it !! Roger V Hunter
Wondering how many Fencing outfits this "project" will devour.
That pack of clowns trying to put in posts with that 2 man hand held joke, and the dull bit were entertaining.
get lotsa' photos for us there, impressive one.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats -- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
we aint the ones in capable of simple math or beotching bout an expense yah shoulda had the brains to know about before you started the project.....
Preservation of capital is what it is all about.
You might learn a little if you had the brains to listen to the likes of me. (Might get you out of your doublewide and up to a $30.00 a week job.
was signing my own paychecks before i was 30......dont think ive done to bad, but then again learned quick there are more important things than a fat bank account.....as far as preservation of capital....given you seem to have no clue how to figure out how much fence yah need BEFORE getting quotes well i aint inclined to take your advice on financial matters....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
Spanky reminds me of the clients my wife used to get back in the valley.. Some young techie would cash in their options and want a tuscan villa. Of course they wanted their own private label vineyard to go with it.. Wifey would inform them right away that the deer were going to swarm it like locusts.. "We haven't seen any deer up here.." They'd always reply. Wifey would nicely tell them that they will see them when they plant the grapes. They better think about a fence.
Young, rich, techies would demand it without the fence, wifey would design an amazing landscape, right out of tuscany, even though no one had even been there.. Soon after the grapes would go in, she would get a call about keeping the deer out.. "Does lion pee work?".. No, she would inform them, a hungry deer will step over a mountain lion to get at grapes, and that they need a 6 foot fence, minimum. " We heard it works, we're doing it".
Not too long after that, she'd get a call about designing an aesthetically pleasing deer fence, which, of course, do not exist.
It was always easy to see the people with more money than common sense.
Originally Posted by captain seafire
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
Would an electric gate work for your neighbors and you? I think I saw and electric gate that operates with garage door opener type. Not sure where. I have draft horses that just walk across cattle guards so I was looking into a gate.
Koehn Drive Thru Electric Gates This looked good to me.
Looked into electric gates but won't work because my neighbor has a home based business and has lots of deliveries. Also electric gates are very expensive, probably about the same as fencing both sides of the road.
Electric gates are NOT expensive. The opener was under 1000 bucks. Thats for a good one. Gate is only what it costs to weld one.
But with the deliveries it might be an issue. IF it matters. We have a keypad at ours, who needs to get in has the combo number, punches it and is in.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
we aint the ones in capable of simple math or beotching bout an expense yah shoulda had the brains to know about before you started the project.....
Preservation of capital is what it is all about.
You might learn a little if you had the brains to listen to the likes of me. (Might get you out of your doublewide and up to a $30.00 a week job.
You really like being beat up don't you. Reminds me of a city guy moved to the country. His neighbor, my best friend, listened to all the plans. He'd read this on google and that... and my buddy let him roll. Then as time went on my buddy mentioned a few things that would not work, regardless of what google said.
Tank kept drying up after 25K of dozer work. You don't build a tank in the sand.... Bees, attracted africanized ones.... Garden didnt't grow worht a flip. Chickens and guieneas ate by hawks without a chicken coop... Lost probably close to 100 fruit trees since he didn't believe bucks would rub their antlers on them in the fall...
Sometimes even if you THINK you konw or learned whats going on, you need to talk to people that have walked that path for more than a couple of years.
See it all the time in town in my inspections.... folks can barely afford a house or mobile home. And then bitch to us about what all we force on them to meet code, how expensive the water/sewer/electrical taps are. Can't believe the cost of the bills after thats paid for, you mean Electric ain't free? And when its hottern' hell or cold, they want to know why their bill doubled or more. And we have to PAY?? to have our trash picked up?
Funniest thing was a welfare mother POS, complained why here electric bill was over 600 one month in the summer. So I go over to talk with her and snoop it all out. Well duh, double wide, older model, not well built, in the sun, no shade and she kept the central AC on 62... when it was 110 in the shade.... so it ran constantly. And later she wanted to konw why her unit had to be replaced it, was only 5 or 6 years old.... IIRC>
Apply some common sense to your life and spending and do some research and life gets better.
I generally even research a gun purchase often for a year or so to run it by folks, look at the options, sleep on it, decide if its right, sane, safe etc... and then save up the cash for the transaction....
BTW a FWIW.... I've watched whitetails jump 8 foot "deer proof" fence on a daily basis a number of times, once they learn how its easy. They just have to figure out that they can do it.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
when I first started guiding, some of my very first clients were some brothers and cousins from New Jersey, young guys, kind of an oddity to have such young guys as clients. Really nice guys, probably gave me a false impression of NJ guys, and how I ended up getting snookered by ironbender. (grin)
anyhoo, sitting out glassin, talkin about life back home, couple of the guys either owned or worked (IIRC owned) a fence building outfit.
told me the bulk of their biz was fencing properties to keep deer out.
"Really?" sez I, my god how tall of fences do you build for that?"
oh we offer either 4 ft. or 6 ft. versions.
"4 ft. how's that sposed to keep a deer out?"
oh you grew up around deer, you know that, but the average NJ suburbanite doesn't
still makes me chuckle
guess it paid well enough they could afford to hunt in AK while still young.
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
when I first started guiding, some of my very first clients were some brothers and cousins from New Jersey, young guys, kind of an oddity to have such young guys as clients. Really nice guys, probably gave me a false impression of NJ guys, and how I ended up getting snookered by ironbender. (grin)
anyhoo, sitting out glassin, talkin about life back home, couple of the guys either owned or worked (IIRC owned) a fence building outfit.
told me the bulk of their biz was fencing properties to keep deer out.
"Really?" sez I, my god how tall of fences do you build for that?"
oh we offer either 4 ft. or 6 ft. versions.
"4 ft. how's that sposed to keep a deer out?"
oh you grew up around deer, you know that, but the average NJ suburbanite doesn't
still makes me chuckle
guess it paid well enough they could afford to hunt in AK while still young.
Sounds like you were guiding theives to me. Grins.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
how the heck do you look someone straight in the face and tell them you'll build a 4 ft. "deer" fence for them?
and then take the loot for having done so?
I teased them good naturedly the rest of the hunt tellin them I was guidin the NJ fence mafia. They got a kick out of it.
and actually one of the brothers could hunt, Tom had a good game eye and was impervious to the weather.
had a blast with them, memorable times on that hunt
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
Not too long after that, she'd get a call about designing an aesthetically pleasing deer fence, which, of course, do not exist.
It was always easy to see the people with more money than common sense.
Over here, the traditional stock barrier for those circumstances was called a Ha-Ha
The one in the link is only designed for stock, but I've seen similar albiet deeper ones for deer..Then you had a sort of half way house, which was a shallow ha-ha, topped with a normal size stock fence. As long as the combined height is a minimum of 6 foot, you are good to go for our Fallow and Red deer.
You don't see new ha-ha's being built much these days due to the costs, but they are apparently very effective when built correctly
I've pretty much decided on a formal wrought iron entry gate and a bump gate at the other end of the property. It will open automatically when any vehicle approaches and close upon their leaving.
You're right they are not that expensive compared to 2,250 feet of wire and post fencing and five interior gates they would replace.
I am fully aware of the damage deer will do to grape vines, that is why I am investing in fencing and gates before vines arrive in June.
This is a professionally designed, installed, and operated vineyard, not a "hobby" vineyard. I am under no illusions that it will turn a profit anytime soon. It is a legacy thing, something for The Wife and I to enjoy while we are alive and then pass on to the next generation.
We will have income from the winery/tasting room to offset some of the expenses. And,once the vineyard is in production, we will have very significant tax advantages. This is not a get rich quick scheme. It is capital and labor intensive but provides a wonderful and intense lifestyle much better than spending our money on world cruises. (Besides The Wife refuses to fly commercial.)
Randy; Happy Easter to you and yours my cyber friend.
I really enjoyed your story about the fence builders and if it's OK I'll segue into an Okanagan fence story for you folks.
Typically, a deer fence in this part of the country is at least 10' high that's TEN FEET for those interested in preserving grapes in a meaningful way.
Anyway Randy, we did this little experiment transplanting some California Bighorns a few years back - we being the volunteers helping out Ministry of Environment guys.
The plan was to get some pregnant ewes to lamb out in a new drainage north of their old range, as if they did that the thought was they'd establish a population there. Sorta like salmon returning to their spawning stream as I understood the gist of it. To be included was one young ram to act as the patriarch of the new flock/herd.
So this 5 or maybe it was 10 acre pasture was fenced in with "standard" height Okanagan deer fence at 10'.
We captured something like 15 pregnant ewes and added one 3 year old ram. At the end I convinced the head bio to throw in a 1 year old ram I'd hogtied and blindfolded too. My theory being I had him all trussed up for transport anyway, right?
The head bio and powers that be decided to do that and away the sheep herd went to the new pasture where feeders were stocked with the same vittles we'd used to trap the herd in the first place.
Now I wasn't there, but as I was told, the herd nicely got unloaded, wandered over to the feeders, had a wee nibble and then walked to the far corner of the pasture and all hopped out like it was no big deal at all.
The really crazy part of this though Randy is that they all returned to the feeders the next day! Well the 3 year old ram did not - he went straight south toward home and was never seen again.
From what I recall the bios and powers that be decided in short order to just leave the gate open as they didn't want to have the pregnant ewes injured.
Oh, they all did stay in the drainage too Randy, except the 3 year old previously mentioned. That little 1 year old ram I'd blindfolded ended up being the ram that serviced the herd until it grew up a bit.
Somewhere if I can find it sometime, I've got a photo of a buddy who helped me hogtie and blindfold that ram - so I'll see later if I can scan it maybe.
Hopefully you and yours have a Happy and Blessed Easter Randy. All the best to all our cyber friends here as well.
bump gate, that ought to destroy some vehicles for sure. If you ain't used em before they'll get you and they ain't light. At least if its like the bump gates I'm used to.
And yes, if you have to have a fancy gate, its gonna cost you more, but thats part of the game.
A gate around here, 16 foot stock gate and opener will cost you around 1000 bucks and you put it in yourself to save someone charging you 1500 bucks to sell the opener to you and install it.
I've about no sympathy for folks that decide to play the big fancy game and then complain.
There is a Meadery down the road from us. Gravel road in. Vineyards and all... and nothing fancy but they turn a heck of a profit.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
am hopin you find the pix, if so, imho, it deserves a thread all its own.
Happy Easter to you and yours as well my friend!
I believe there's a moral to these stories.....critters can JUMP!
I'm pretty certain when we sing our anthem and mention the land of the free, the original intent didn't mean cell phones, food stamps and birth control.
I helped a guy put a fence around his orchard (only 1/2 acre) we welded the longest Tee posts we could buy together and pounded them in whilst standing on a platform stretched across a pickup bed. It then took two layers of horse wire. Whether they can jump this high or not is immaterial as they didn't try.
NRA Benefactor Member
Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't.
I was raised in northern Cal, north of Sacramento. There is a small range of mountains in the middle of the Sacramento Valley called the Sutter Buttes. The Buttes have gas wells all over them. The gas and oil companies have service roads to all the well and installed bump gates. Bump gates can raise hell with a pickup if you don't learn how to operate them, also if they are not in great repair lol. If you have to go thru pulling a trailer you better get out and hand open it and chain it back, seen a lot of stock trailers with bump gate dents lol.
Well, IIRC and I don't have time to scroll back up right now, you said the pricing of a gate opener was out of line or too high or such. When its not.
I don't know what a cattle guard will cost you but we had a standard depth one built but 24 feet wide for our drive, with installation that was over 2000 as I recall. And you are looking at similar cost wise I"d suspect.
1.5 inch pipe AINT gonna cut it. I've seen 2 inch pipe bend under load. Unless you put all kinds of ibeams under it every 2 feet or so probably... even then I've seen em bend unless you get up to oil field 2 and 3/8 tubing at a minimum.
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
The Feds and county here put in cattle guards made by PowderRiver, they cost 3 to 5 thousand, depending on size. Lol a solar gate opener is a hell of a lot cheaper.
Professionally designed and operated, but the fence/gate wasn't taken into consideration?
Stuff like that makes me giggle..
Of course deer protection was taken into consideration. I figured about 20k. Looks like it will be considerably less if I use two gates.
I don't make detailed plans and spend money before the need arises. I have also taken into consideration frost protection and will probably have to install at least one wind machine at 30k. But am I going to go out and buy it now? Of course not, I'll buy it if and when it is needed. I have also taken into consideration bird protection. But am I going to go out and buy it now? Of course not, I'll buy it when it is needed. I have also taken into consideration a $4,000.00 water filter. But am I going to go out and buy it now? Of course not, I'll buy it when it is needed. I have also taken into consideration that I will need about 90 more miles of trellis wire. But am I going to go out and buy it now? Of course not, I'll buy it when it is needed. I could go on but maybe even you get the point.
This is a professionally designed, installed, and managed vineyard and I have the resources to fund it.
We had a hunter come in through double bump gates once. .. Rich SOB.... rented a caddy in San Antonio and hit every bump gate on the way to the ranch I worked at in Rocksprings.
Buddy of mine laughed so hard when he got to camp, bumper was almost hanging off, one mirror gone, and dents all up and down the side.
Probably didn't help, or did, that he had managed about half a gallon of Vodka by the time he got there... felt sorry for his teenage son to see all that....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
Was not paying attention when I first saw this to whom had created the post, good luck Spanokopitas, sounds like your move from CA is working out for you.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.debatepolitics.com/members/kaya-08-albums-usergroup-pictures-picture67110488-queens-gaurd.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://www.funonthenet.in/images/pics/beautiful_castle_moats/[bleep].jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://doingtheskedaddle.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/barbed-wire1.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i492.photobucket.com/albums/rr288/Bwnci/welsh-flag-large-anim.gif)
