Home Forums Lever Action Central Marlin 336 Lever Actions 358 Winchester in the 336

I have tried loading and cycling some 358 Win in my 35 Rem.....and it works!

The 358 won't chamber, of course, but it goes in the magazine and feeds like a fat boy at a buffet.

From the mag tube onto the elevator, it comes up and starts into the chamber like it was designed for the cartridge.

Just something to think about.......... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Ted

It's a fairly common conversion. Most folks convert to .356 winchester, but of course the .358 has the same dimensions except for the rim. Either will work. The company below advertises reboring a 30-30 which has the advantage of letting you choose the twist.



For $145 I'm going to give them a try when I pick up a donor.

Weagle

I have used 358 brass to feed the Nonneman conversion that I sold to BSAjoe a few months ago. It works fine, but IIRC, you need to keep the OAL at 356 specs, rather than 358 specs, to insure that it will feed in the Marlin 336 action. Although I wouldn't make a habit of it, I wouldn't have any safety concerns about running 358 factory loads through a Marlin 336 in 356 in a pinch. The Winchester 200 grain factory loads have a fairly round nosed ST bullet, so loading them in the magazine wouldn't concern me either.

Jeff

ahh man. I just got rid of a 760 in 300 savage. After selling it, I started thinking about converting a 760 or 7600 to 358 winchester.
Looks like I had a perfect donor, and let it go. Time to find another needle in a haystack.

OK, I can't resist. 260Remguy and weagle seem to think there is nothing wrong about using a 52,000 psi cartridge in a gun designed for a max. of 38,000????? Since when can a 336 take the pressure of a 358?? If it could why isn't it chambered for the .308 Win which is also a 52,000 Psi cartridge?? The reason is that the action is not strong enough! I can't believe I'm seeing anything this irresponsible in print!

Apparently it is ok for some of them, since Marlin chambered the 356 Win (maybe the 307, I don't know) and it operates at the same pressure as the 358.

Why do you say the gun is designed for a max of 38,000? Heres one of several marlin 336 ER's I have owned and it is chamber for the .356 winchester cartridge. The only difference in it and a standard 336 is the chambering.



As far as the .308, think about a tubular mag full of pointy FMJ surplus rounds and you'll have your answer.

Welcome to the board.

Weagle

Hi, thanks for the welcome! I did further checking and the pressures for the 356 Win also run at 52,000 psi. Question is: If the 336 ER is not modified in strength to take the 356 Win, why didn't Marlin just chamber the 336 for the 358 Win years ago? I know that the locking lug area of the 94 was beefed up to take the pressure. My understanding is that the 336 action is designed only for 38,000 psi which is the pressure that limits how hot you can load a 30-30 or 35 Rem. I have to believe that the 336 ER action is different from a 336 action! The concept of firing a 358 Win in a 356 chamber is simply a bad idea unless Winchester has specifically stated that it is safe.
Nice oak table, by the way, it looks identical to ours!

The 336 ER is a standard 336 action.

As far as making a tube fed lever action in .358, none of the manufacturers of tube fed lever guns were going to produce them in a chamberings where the factory ammo was loaded with pointed bullets. Winchester came up with the 307, 356 and .375 winchester rounds in their beefed up 94 Big Bore action. All were factory loaded with round nose or flat point bullets for use in the tube magazine. Marlin didn't need to beef up their 336 action so they released the 336 er in .356 and the marlin model .375 (336 action with a .375 win barrel).

Weagle

That's what I told ya. A little research is a wonderful thing before going on a rant, but your mileage may vary.........

I can't believe I am seeing anything this nonsensical in print.

Welcome to the board! You are going to enjoy it here. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Ted

Yes, forgot to mention that I had loaded the bullets deep enough that they would come all the way out of the mag tube. They are a bit shorter than what my wife uses in her Model Seven.

Ted

Ted, the conversion works very well, use a .358 win reamer, and .356 oal seating depth and loading data. I have converted a few.

The only 3 bullets that I can recall using in the Nonneman converted 356s are the 180 grain Speer, 200 grain Hornady, and 220 grain Speer. All 3 bullets were crimped in the cann groove and would work with either 356 or 358 brass. No problem. Of course, I would recommend cycling your reloads through the magazine and action prior to hunting with them, but maybe that's just me, as I like to minimize the potential for Mr. Murphy to show up at the moment of truth.

Jeff

I really am glad I visited here tonight. I have a 336 in 30-30 and wanted to do a 307 or 356 conversion...new barrel...something...ever since I picked it up last year, just for that purpose. I've been crawling all over the 'net looking for the scuttlebutt... and I just found it thanks to weagle. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I could kiss you if that wasn't unmanly and foreign to my self. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> Thanks much. If I ever get to visit my kin in Atlanta I owe you and your family a night on the town. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I was leaning toward Paco Kelly's 358 or 375 conversions but was too cheep to do a new barrel and I have a back log of chambering projects going on now anyway. There are a couple of other 'smiths doing reboring but their prices are in the 3 "C" note range and I'm REALLY to cheep for that.

My other winter projects are going into hibernation until I get the 336 finished.

Thanks again Weagle

I'll be calling Jes tomorrow to set up an appointment. Maybe he can do a 375 JDJ for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

By the way, I've been shooting pointy bullets in 94's for a long time, just load one up the gazingo and one in the tube. Works good for me and never had need for any more than 2 shots anyway. Besides if I ever think I'll need more than a few shots or the northmen come over the hill, I have plenty of multishooters to take over the small stuff. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Enjoy

Your raising concerns over nothing! Simply look at a loading manual at the OAL of the two cartridges. You should soon discover that the .356 is shorter than the .358 (2.56 vs. 2.78). 358 factory ammo may not feed reliably in the 336 action. two options: lenghten the receiver - major dedesign cost, or simply chamber for a round designed by Winchester for shorter actions and tubular magazines.

So Marlins had the two options: [*]One requires only a rechamber [*]The other requires a major redesign of the action.

Both have identical ballistics. One has pointed bullets that are dangerous in tube mags.

What would you do? Sounds like you would re-invent the gun!

.

JBLEDSOE: For your information, if you had read the first post in this thread along with many others that agree, you would know that a 358 round DOES feed through a 336. Secondly, the 358 has round nose bullets available as does the 308W and the 35 Rem. The 35 Rem also has a pointed 150 gr available. Using your "logic" Marlin shouldn't have chambered for the 35 Rem either, since a pointed bullet is available. Also, the only modification to reliably feed a 358 would be to increase the milling cut on the carrier, hardly calling for a "major modification"! Nothing like bringing back a thread from 5 months ago that was already beat into the ground.

Just think what a guy can do when Hornady releases the LeverEvolution bullets for handloads in 35 cal . . . .

Could be sweet,

BMT

I stand corrected, informed, and irresponsible! Sorry.

I have just converted a 336 30-30 to 308 and another to 358/356. The 308 feeds like a champ as long as the COL is no more than 2.56. The rifle shoots 2MOA with milsurp ammo loaded singly. I haven't done any handloading for it yet.
If you ever looked at the Marlin action and receiver you wouldn't have any worry about strength. For years I heard how the Savage 99 was a weak action-but it was chambered for 375 Win also-not exactly a weak sister round.

The only difference you can see may be the chambering, but let's consider this quote from Marlin's release of the ER rifle:

"The Extra Range has Marlin's classic lever action styling and quality. It's action is machined from six solid steel forgings that are heat treated for even greater strength and durability."

Brophy page 263. Emphasis added.

It sure sounds like rifles chambered in 356 got different heat treating that rifles in lower pressure rounds. Considering the difference in pressure between a 35 Rem and a 356 that's to be expected.

I wouldn't even think about it.

Nonneman does a Rockwell hardness test on the receivers before doing the conversion. He has told me that he has never found any meaningful difference in hardness of a Marlin receiver. They all fell within a range, but none of them, from the oldest to newest, cheapest and most expensive, fell outside the normal range.

I doubt that Nonneman would do the 30-30 to 307 and 35 to 356 conversions as a normal part of his business if it was dangerous, since he would be the POA for any litigation that would be sure to come in the event of a failure.

Jeff

I don't think that quote from marlin is exclusive to the ER's It's just a statment of fact that applies to any 336 action. Why would they heat treat a normal 336 action in a way that was not optimal.

One way marlin did experiment with making the action stronger was to use a square thread design on the never released .307 chambering. That's the same design they are using on the new .308 express rifles.

One source calims they used the square threads on the .375's and er's, but I have never had one pulled apart to verify that as fact. I don't believe it's true because I think they would have used a different part number for the receiver.

I have a Nonneman conversion 336 from 35 Rem to 356 Win. It works just fine. When I talked to him about doing the job he said he could set it up for either the 356 or the 358 case, it would just be a matter of the extractor. If set up for one it may work for the other or it may not be as reliable. Made sence to me... I have tried 358 cases in my 356 and some work and some dont..by that I mean extraction is if'y with the 358's. No big deal..I wanted a 356 and that's what I use in it.

Now...I got a question that is kinda off topic. Why didn't Winchester do the 375 on the 307/356 case? WHY the 30/30? I don't get it. I'm not doggin' the 375 Win but it does seem they went the "little sister" route with their case choice. Where they worried about bolt thrust? or what? Can anyone guide me on this one?

Mark H

I've never taken a 336ER apart, but I have a 375 barrel and it had the same thread specs all any other 336. The 375 went on to become a 257 Tomcat, Frances Sells version of the 25/35AI.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff. There's a member on another board that claims to be a marlin employee that said that the er's and .375's used the square threads. I didn't think that was the case.

I sent a 30-30 off recently and had it rebored and rechamber to .375 win by Jess Ocumpaugh. Less than 2 week turnaround, $170 and it shoots great!

I'll admit that the quote about heat treating is open to the interpretation that all receivers were heat treated and they just happened to mention it. However, there are plenty of good reasons why they might heat treat the 356 receivers and not others.

The extra heat treatment costs more money to perform.
The lower pressure receivers don't need it.

If so, why didn't Nonneman's testing show any meaningful difference between any Marlin 336 action? He did tell me that some of the Winchester 94 that he tested showed a degree of hardness usually found in cast iron.

I'm far from being a risk-taker or a safety margin pusher, but I feel quite confident using either of my Nonneman converted Marlin 336 rifles. I don't think that I would make it a habit of using Winchester/Olin 358 factory ammo, but I would use it in a pinch.

If you would feel uncomfortable, or unsafe, using a Nonneman converted Marlin 336, there are plenty of more expensive 356 and 358 options available to you. Just like some folks feels comfortable loading the 35 Remington to pressure levels that I would feel uncomfortable with. Not because of the strength of the Marlin rifle, but because of my concern over the ability of the 35 Remington brass to handle the higher pressure levels.

Jeff

Quote; "The only difference you can see may be the chambering, but let's consider this quote from Marlin's release of the ER rifle:

"The Extra Range has Marlin's classic lever action styling and quality. It's action is machined from six solid steel forgings that are heat treated for even greater strength and durability."

Brophy page 263. Emphasis added.

It sure sounds like rifles chambered in 356 got different heat treating that rifles in lower pressure rounds. Considering the difference in pressure between a 35 Rem and a 356 that's to be expected." End quote


I wonder why those people at Marlin didn't know that? They gave those "heat treated " receivers the same part number as the untreated receivers!

----------------------------------------------------------------
It's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.

Hardness isn't the only quality you are seeking when you heat treat a receiver.

That is certainly true, but I've never seen any credible documentation that the ER or 375 receivers were in any way different than the regular 336 receivers. If they were different, I think marlin would have gone out of their way to promote the added strength and they certainly would have given them different part numbers.

I'm convinced that all the receivers are the same. I'm not condoning hot rodding a 336, but I see Zero evidence that the .356 and .375 winchester are anything other than excellent and safe chamberings for a modern 336.

Weagle

Well part numbers would be a pretty good clue! Well, it was a theory that deserved looking into.

The 307/356 came five years after the 375. (1983 vs 1978) It would have been a better case to use for a 375, but it didn't exist at the time.

[/quote]

Well part numbers would be a pretty good clue! Well, it was a theory that deserved looking into. [/quote]


We need to question "facts", that's how we learn. Keep asking questions that makes one think.

Jim

"The Extra Range has Marlin's classic lever action styling and quality. It's action is machined from six solid steel forgings that are heat treated for even greater strength and durability."
In the above statement ,,It does not say the 356 ER had any exrta heat treatment...It's action is machined from six solid steel forgings that are heat treated for even greater strength and durability."
I'd say thats true for all 336 actions..
I dought Marlin would knowing make weaker actions for some of threre chamberings....

As I said before, yours is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the quote. Since it appears that Marlin uses the same part #s for all receivers, it would seem that all the receivers are indeed alike.

WARNING! The following is speculation on how things MIGHT have been done. Please don't reply telling me it didn't happen this way!

So let's conjecture how Marlin might have used different receivers. They were making rifles at 30-30 pressures for years. They decided to launch a new line of high pressure cartridges (356 and 307). Because of the higher pressures they decide to apply a different heat treat to receivers for those cartridges. So they wouldn't be making "weaker actions for some of their chamberings". They would be making stronger receivers for the ones that need it. They wouldn't use the new heat treat on receivers for lower pressure cartridges because:

It costs more.
They don't need it.

This kind of thing happens all the time in manufacturing. It just doesn't appear to have happened in this case.

Think of the inventory issues of having two parts, identical in appearance, with different part numbers. That is what would cost more, in time, confusion, and dollars.

Since Marlin made somewhere around 3,000 336 ERs in 356 and 0 in 307, I think that it is reasonable to infer that all of those rifles were made up in 1 or 2 production runs. I don't have any idea what Marlin's production line through-put capacity is, but I'd suspect that they don't break the line down to change models any more often than necessary, since a production line that isn't working costs a lot of $$ for every hour that it is down.

While it is possible that the 336 ER receiver had some special heat treatment done, I will continue to shoot my non-factory 336s in 307 and 356 without worrying about my safety. Since I only live about 100 miles from Nonneman's shop, it is pretty easy for me to drop down to Northwestern MO and visit him. If any of you who are concerned about the safety of a Nonneman conversion had the same opportunity to meet Regan and see what kind of 'smith he is, I'm sure that you would have the same comfort level that I have.

I don't get any compensation for posting positive comments about Regan and his work, my only intent is to share my experience with anyone who might be interested in owning a Marlin in 307 or 356 that he/she can use without concern for its value.

If you want a deer rifle, a guy/gal who can shoot and hunt will probably be as successful with a 30-30 or 35 as he/she would be with a 307 or 356. OTOH, if you want a Marlin 336 that is more suited to heavier or tougher game, the extra power of the 307 and 356 might be worth the investment.

Just my 0.02, nothing more.

Jeff

Very good .02 worth, Jeff

Why didn't Marlin use a necked down 444 Marlin to make a 35 and a 308, maybe even a 25 caliber family of cartridges?

A bigger case can push a bullet faster with less pressure.

Isn't the 336 the same action as the 1895? Those handle the .450 Marlin and 45-70.

SAAMI pressure for the 450 Marlin is 43,500 psi, considerably less than the 358. The 45-70's SAAMI pressure is a very low 28,000 psi. Any responsible handload will be no higher than the 450 Marlin's pressure.

We have discussed this before so I will not even go there!




Jim

I am completely nuetral here. Why did Marlin quit ,aking the 356?

Have never read or heard anything over the years to suggest that the Marlins in .356 were any tougher than all the others.

I think this issue has been burnt to a small pile of ashes on this and several other sites. The only way to know for sure is if Marlin issues a statememt on their manufacturing methods relating to the "different" actions and/or the heat treating process and that will NEVER HAPPEN...ergo...there is NO answer AND possibly NO END to these questions.

I seem to keep seeing the same monikers on different sites asking the same question and getting the same non-answers and replies.

This is worse than de-ja vu with your ex-wife. I keep looking for new and interesting things about the Marlin, but "old nasty, mean,and ugly" keeps appearing out of the darkness. I keep having to patch bullet holes in the walls...Please, can you quit it, I'm running out of patching plaster.

Enjoy

"The Extra Range has Marlin's classic lever action styling and quality. It's action is machined from six solid steel forgings that are heat treated for even greater strength and durability."

This is how all 336's are made!


Brophy page 263. Emphasis added.

It sure sounds like rifles chambered in 356 got different heat treating that rifles in lower pressure rounds. Considering the difference in pressure between a 35 Rem and a 356 that's to be expected

Advertising HYPE! Written for people who will believe anything in print without question. Most folks will believe what they want to hear so marketing types play on that weakness.

BTW, look up the 336 part numbers. ALL Marlin 336s (until very recent manufacture) have the same part number regardless of caliber.

Simple. The .307 and .356 didn't exist. The .375 was the first Big Bore 94 by a few years.