Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles AR Reloading Components Arrived!

Ok all of your AR reloading experts. My Redding dies with the carbide neck expander arrived, plus all the other goodies necessary for getting started.

Die set up, perfect, One Shot Lube, love it, resized case, no problem. Then, I used that case as a dummy for trim set up purposes. First, I measured the resized case as these are BH's BB and will have been fired now twice (perhaps more?). My resizing it lengthened it a bit, but the case measured 1.770!

Now I know that the OAL of .223 cases, at least from every manual I've read lately (alot!), says that 1.760 is the max and cases should be trimmed to 1.750. The trim length makes perfect sense as the same goes for bolt guns. But do the gas guns have lesser tolerances in that regard? In other words, do I ever need to worry about trimming as evidently BH's didn't. Love BH's stuff, but maybe I'm setting myself up for alot more work (trimming) than I need to do.

I expect some answers may include the fact that BH's knows the answer to this and the length of the case I measured is of no big concern. Their QC is very good, that's not in question. But I'd like your thoughts, opinions and /or definitive answer's.

Stumped, but excited at the same time and can't wait to get back at it later to load some test rounds.

Thanks.

I don't know what BH does but suspect that their round may be crimped a bit? Maybe that causes the cases to grow quite a bit? and maybe they trim to max length of 1.760 and combined with a "hot" charge of powder causes the case to grow quickly...

I personally trim all my brass to 1.750 in 223 for my AR because I want consistency on the reloaded round and don't want to have to worry about it being too long and not chambering.

Remember your gas gun does not have the "camming" power like a bolt gun does to "squeeze" in the round if it is just a hair too big. (and NO that is NOT what the Foward Assist is for...)

as for less tolerances? Refer back to "camming" action or lack of it in a semi auto.

(now here is a contradiction)

Of the 2 gas guns I own (AR and Garand) I only neck size for both but make sure the trim length is to the min.

Yea, yea, bla bla bla I hear it all the time "your gonna have problems, your gun will explode the world will end, etc.... because you only neck size!" They about freak out when I tell them that.

Well after 20 years of reloading, I have yet to have problems because of neck sizing only.

Now this is not to say that if I was having problems chambering I would have no aversion to FL sizing.

why do I neck size only? Longer case life and better accuracy.

oh here is another inconsistency for me. I FIRST trim to 1.750 then shoot till it is past the max length then trim down again. Depending on the load I may be able to shoot it 4-5 times before my next trimming. By that time in my AR the brass is pretty beat and may need dumping anyways....

Good info Blammer. I've heard the full length, neck size debate before. To each their own. I've got several thousand cases available and a whole bunch of factory stuff still left from which to stockpile more cases. I know I'll lose a loading or two per case before you will due to the FL sizing, but no big deal. I wonder how many more loads neck sizing gives you, all else being equal?

While I'm in the questioning mood....... a few more questions about reloading practices that I faithfully do with my bolt guns, but not sure about gas guns. I always uniform both the flash holes (initially) and primer pockets (clean after each firing). I also decampher and deburr the case mouth after each firing. Are these necessary steps? I'd prefer not to get as involved in all these steps as I do with the bolt, but if it's that important, I will. I love accuracy...and in my big game rifles, I demand it. But gophers and the like..... .75 @ 100 will suffice. The only reason I decided to reload for this Varminter was with the expectation of being able to reload quick and in bulk. But it is what it is and I'm willing to put out the effort if it's going to make a noticable difference in accuracy.

Last question...... this trip. I am quite familiar with pressure signs in bolt guns. All my loads are worked up until I start to see pressure signs so I know where the rifle's limits are with those particular components. I then back off and finalize my load. Rather than mention each and every one of the signs of pressure, rest assured I am familiar with most, if not all of them ( no kabooms either). What about pressure signs in gas guns when there is no sticky bolt lift to give me a heads up? If I'm working up loads to reach that 3,275 - 3,300 fps goal, outside of pierced primers, how will I know when I'm at the doorstep? Different animals altogether. But I love this AR.

Appreciate all the help you've given me. Thanks.

Neck sizing in my match AR's has caused problems in the past. I can load warm loads 25 times in bushing neck/FL sized brass with no problems. Its keeping the primer pockets in shape that is tough in my real match ammo since its fairly hot.

OAL of brass-- find the dimensions of your particular chamber reamer and you will generally find that brass can be quite a bit longer than what Saami specs call for. I trim mine to 1.740 for whatever reason, its what I picked and I tend not to touch it for practice brass after that as without the expander my brass won't grow much. Brass is often scrapped before re trimming.

I debur flash holes and sort by weight to the same 1 grain batches for 223 accuracy. I dont' monkey with the pockets or neck turning etc.... and I can usually get between 2-4 inches at 600 yards for 5 shot groups. Dont' know what it'll do at 100 because I don't know that I've ever tested anything closer than 200, usually 300 yards.

Pressure signs. Rim lifts are not reliable signs. Ejector marks can be IF they are perfectly round and not oblong(oblong is a sign of premature opening by the gas system and usually nets rim lifts also-- gas ports are on the large side normally, which is why I specify smaller ports on my barrels). MV is a decent sign. The chrono will also tell you to a degree, IE more powder generally makes X speed. IE add .5 grains and you get a 50 fps increase on average(I dont' recall the real figures) but all of a sudden at the top end you add powder and get little or no increase you are at max generally.

Best, Jeff

I don't do flash holes never have. I shoot pretty decent groups.... I chamfer and deburr case mouth only after trimming. If no trim no de burr. I clean primer pockets about every 3 rd firing needs it or not. Never neck turned.

Normal pressure signs show up with a gas gun plus the ones Rost mentioned.

I pay attention to flattened primers, ejector marks on the case, and case lenght after firing and check for case head seperation.

Plus HOW FAR does the brass fly from your gun? REALLY sails out there (4-6 feet) generally equals hot load.

Also, I have found that the length of the fired case will also be a tell tale of pressure.

EX. 5 loaded with ex 20 gr powder then next 5 loaded 21 gr powder next 5 22 gr. Usually the max charges cause the case to grow the longest. So of the three examples 20 gr may still be 1.750 (start trim length) 21 gr may be 1.755 and 22 may be 1.76, get the idea? (of course same components...this is standard in bolt guns too...)

check for case seperations as in a Gas gun I have found them to be more frequent when using hot loads.

Darrel

Don't take my comments as negative to you. Just what I've found over the years.

Mag:

Brass for me really doesn't grow in length in regards to the load. It grows if you use an expander or size it too much
( I should add that I deal with custom barrels not factory stuff)
The distance the brass flies CAN show some signs but again can vary due to ejector tensions.
I have experienced very few seperations but am very picky about checking how much I size cases.
That said I experience more neck cracks than seems normal but I"m also one that will load a bunch of ammo and then not shoot it till a few years later just depending on time.
This is one thing I try to avoid by annealing every 4-5 times fired.
I can't recall retiring a case for lack of life, normally the neck splits cause me to dump a lot back to the guard shooters to turn in.
I can see the difference by a tiny bit in weighed cases and deburring flash holes. But I cannot see the difference being worth it until one reaches 300 yards or further or unless you are trying to win a BR match with an AR(which is possible)

Jeff

Perfect, exactly the info I was looking for. Appreciate both your input.

I feel much more prepared at this point as I guess I was expecting some altogether different pressure signs from these gas guns. Not sure exactly what, but just wanted and needed a heads up in case they were passing me by and I wasn't aware. I was thinking that the AR's themselves might exhibit some type of unusual functioning, in concert with pressure signs that the cases generally show first.

Tested loads several times before where the top end loads had reached their max and there was no appreciable gain in velocity. Pretty telling most of the time when approaching that point. A chrono is invaluable for that purpose. I think the 50 fps per .5 gr. seems to fit, not much higher in my experience. Often times about 40 fps for me. Much like an inch more of barrel adds about 35 - 50 fps more velocity and each degree of temperature rise adds 2 fps. Most all of the time these are right in the ballpark. With customs, such as you have, those might show higher readings in those regards.

A few sessions ago at the range, a guy next to me with an AR pointed out the difference of how his brass was ejecting. He was working up loads. What brought this about was that the ejected cases that had not ended up landing on my bench, were all of a sudden finding their way there, without a change in his original position. Guess his AR was trying to tell him something. Wish I had this info then and I could have warned him. Gotta love brass catcher's, I do. I expect the guys on my right do as well. Keeps my brass in better shape.

I buy all of my reloading components in bulk as I believe in uniformity and consistancy. Picked up 3,000 50 gr. V-Max's, 5,000 205's, all with the same lot #'s. All my brass is LC, whether that's good or bad, I'm not sure. I have yet to determine the powder I'll use, but when I do, that will be in bulk as well. I believe that this gives you the best chance at consistancy and allows for a certain amount of safety. It also helps to trump potential "Brady Bill" type fiasco's.

Thanks again for your very helpful input. I'm headed to my reloading room with alot more knowledge than when I last left it.

Thanks.

Blammer, I don't know how you got by all these years by only neck-sizing for an AR. I know you won't be able to do that with the WSSM. I have measured many cases ejected from the WSSM's and have yet to find one that would re-chamber, once ejected. Depending on the powder, bullet and charge, the ejected cases range from .0005 to .0045 longer than before being fired.

Different powder/bullet combinations I know will work, but none of the loads I am using for my .223 AR would work with a neck-sizing die. If you think about it, when the AR is fired and the bullet progresses down the barrel, the bolt is locked just like a bolt-action rifle. When the bullet passes the gas-port, the bolt begins to unlock. By the time the bullet exits the barrel, the bolt must be completely unlocked and moving rearward. A heavy bullet and a slow-burning powder will normally have a pressure curve that is quite high while the bolt is unlocking. The case is still under enough pressure to keep it blown out against the chamber walls. When the bolt opens and the case starts to be extracted, it normally gets a few thousandths of of an inch longer. This is where the trimming comes in. When the case is re-sized, the diameter of the case is squeezed down and the shoulder set back to where it needs to be. The excess brass "flows" up to the neck, to be trimmed off.

rost-no offense taken at all! I was not intending to point at anyone else either! IF I did I am sorry.
and I agree with what rost posted further, good stuff if you ask me!

Dtech- yea I know I sometimes find it hard to believe myself! I comprehend what you're saying and it makes PERFECT sense! I'm just waiting for the day when the "magic" stops....

I will see on the 25 WSSM for sure! I have no doubt I'll be FL on that one but I will have to try atleast one case just necking only to satisfy my curiosity... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

FWIW...Shortcamp let me know about a great price on 50 gr. V-Max's at Midsouth. They beat Midway's price by quite a bit on the 250 cts. I could have saved about $25 on the 3,000 I ordered from Midway a few days ago. Midsouth's out of stock right now, but shipment is overdue. So I ordered another 1,000 from them on backorder as 2 8lb jugs of most any spherical for .223's will get me 4,000 rounds (exactly!) @ 28.0 grs.

Good suggestion Shortcamp. Somehow you cost and saved me $ at the same time. I think, thank you.....grin.

You sure your going to be able to shoot all those vmax. They do have a limited shelf life you know. Maybe you should send me a few boxes so they don't spoil. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I'm going to give it a helluva try! Actually, 2 -3 (say 2 1/2) trips to Montana each spring/summer @ 600 rounds a trip = 1,500 rounds a year, not including range time. Those 4,000 rounds will only last me 2 1/2 gopher seasons, at most!! Wish I hadn't put it in those terms. That's alot of load prep. Geez!!

I've got 700 loaded up 22-250's with 55 gr. V-Max. Another 2,000 55's just waiting to join them at the party. Just sold a buddy 2,000 55's as he needed them pretty badly. We are going over for our 3rd and last hunt of the year in late June and he needs some more put together for that trip.

In all seriousness Shortcamp, appreciate the heads up on Midsouth's prices. I missed that one completely. There are about 5 or 6 Midway, Cabela's types I refer to first, but Midsouth has never been one I've used more than a couple of times in the past. A costly mistake on my part.

Thanks again for all of your posts and assistance answering my questions and with the V-Max purchase.

Never had an issue with LC 223 brass. I"ve got more than a few plaques, medals, range records etc... and all of it comes from LC brass.

Ejection patterns, forgot to mention that. Not so much as to where or how far it throws but whether all 5 or 10 go into a pile or not. Much like my chrono issues, the very lowest ES and SD usually dissappoint me on the paper. On ejection patterns I've noticed that if they all go into the same pile odds are decent that the paper will be nice too. If you get 3 here and 2 there, odds are it will look the same on the paper too.

Dtech-- good info on how brass grows--exactly how I see it too, and by sizing just enough, I can get away with seldom if ever trimming by cutting them way back on the first load. Now if I get agressive on sizing and go back to an expander ball, all bets are off. I"d suspect the wssms can be even worse on brass flow.

You are getting me all worked up on the 25 wssm issue too.... Guess that goes on the list for the future too. Just have to pay off this dang 50 bmg first.

Jeff

rost495 - Appreciate the comments on LC brass and ejection patterns. I have also found, in bolt guns, that low ES's and SD's oftentimes don't show me the results of comments/articles I've been reading about for years. Sometimes, but not as often as I would have guessed or hoped.

I've used Redding's Competition Shellholder's for years with all of my bolt guns to help with the headspace issue. A wonderful, convenient product that gives me many more loadings and accuracy than using the standard die setting process. But primarily, I use them because limiting/reducing headspace allows me the accuracy I'm looking for.

With bolt guns, the process is simple. Using shellholder #10, resize fireformed ( in my rifle) case, slip in chamber, turn bolt down. If it closes too hard, repeat procedure with shellholer #8 and so on until the bolt has that "perfect" feel when turned down. That shellholder is then dedicated to that rifle, at least until I change out to new or a different brand of brass. Then I start over again, but it only takes a few minutes.

I'm not sure how to figure the proper headspace for my AR due to the obvious lack of a bolt to turn down. Where can I get that "feel" that I need to know means my headspace is set correctly? In this case, a bolt's not a bolt and I'm at a loss as to how to determine my AR's headspace.

Appreciate comments from those in the know.

Can't help on the headspace much other than having it gauged. All mine come with a notation of exact headspace and I just go down 2thou under that.

I have some info that if you would go get good new factory ammo, IE not surplus whatever, and fire 10-20 rounds and mic them with a case gauge and then assume thats your headspace and set up 2-4 under that you are good to go. I only use the Redding shellholders for sure!! I tend to set my cases back just a bit more for rapid fire ammo vs my slow prone for 600 and beyond. Works well for that.

On the other hand, I also hear you can pull the ejector out (simple manuever) and slowly feed the cases in manually and maybe bump with forward assist. Removing extractor would require use of a rod for the MT, but should be even a bit more reliable. YMMV as I've never done it that way.

Jeff

Good info, as usual.

Not looking for the easiest way with all things in life, but this one is definitely a bit more challenging. I don't even think that purchasing the Redding Comp SH's would help me in this circumstance. Nothing to feel.

I'll give both methods a go. Makes perfect sense to "set my cases back just a bit more" for the gas guns. I would figure a bit more play in the AR's is a prudent choice.

I want mine to come with notation's about their customized headspace!! Maybe someday. Actually, maybe after I burn this barrel out on gopher's and the like. Could take awhile, somewhat dependent on the loads.

Thanks once again for your suggestions and comments.

OR!!! (an after thought)...... Take fireformed brass, resize 5 cases (each) @ #10 Redding Comp.SH, 5 @ #8 and so on down to the #2, trim cases to EXACT length's, load exact weights of same powder in each case, seat to exact same ogive length, shoot, measure each case for growth, determine which # allows for very minimum growth and then settle on the next lower #. Load up 20 or so more at that pre-determined setting/#, shoot for accuracy/reliability, laugh and go home or revisit the problem.

Thoughts?

RCBS makes a very hand little tool for this called a "precision case micrometer". To use it, you simply fire a round in a chamber, extract it, drop it into the micrometer and measure the length of the case. It measures from the base to mid-way on the shoulder. You then use the micrometer to select the correct competition shell-holder to give you the sized case length you are after.

As I had stated before, in an AR the case is, more often than not, longer than the chamber because of the way it is extracted. What I do is slide the gas-block off so the AR becomes a single-shot. The case that is extracted is quite close to where you want to be as far as sizing. I have found that the case normally shrinks a little after firing so I select a shell-holder that will give me about .001" shorter than the case that I fired.

While reloading the WSSM brass, the case mic. is a huge benefit. The brass is about twice the thickness of standard brass and also very large in diameter. These two factors make setting the shoulder back quite an experience. Even a very strong press will spring enough to give you varying sized case length unless you pre-load your press, quite a bit more than you normally would. While loading for the .223 and you get a case that is .0005" longer than the chamber, no big deal. The heavy bolt will still slam shut on the case and the gun will fire. If you tried to extract that round without firing it, it may extract hard as the shoulder gets distorted a little when getting packed into the chamber. With the WSSM uppers, if you have a case that is .0005" longer than the chamber........You will have one heck of a time getting the bolt back open! There is just not enough "give" in a WSSM case for ANY forgiveness what so ever.

The perfect Father's Day gift! A precision case micrometer. Sounds like I need one, for future rifles, measurements, as well.

I'm hoping the WSSM works out well for you. I've got my hands full enough already to begin thinking about those issues. Much luck with your project.

Thanks for your suggestions.