Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 3 or 5 round groups.........Which one and why???

John, I have heard that a lot. The problem is that rifles capable of .75" or less don't come along that often. As a matter of fact, they are very rare (customs included) and usually are more substantial in weight than your average mountain rifle. Like you, I use to think I was the problem, not the rifle/load. My epiphany was the day I finally ran across a rifle that was truly capable of it. Now I know that those "pulled shots" aren't pulled shots. I started overlaying the tiny three shot clusters and realized their point of impact wasn't the same. Clue! I will bet that I could hand you my tester rifle and you will hammer out a 10 consecutive shot sub 1 MOA group with no "fliers". It is enlightening.

BSA, the guys who have "shot down his way of thinking" are the guys who haven't shot enough bullet holes in paper to know. Those who have know he is spot on. I don't know him but I've read enough to put together that Formidilosus was trained to kill people and now he is doing the training. Guessing isn't an option, and he's seen enough rounds down range to know.

This schit cracks me up!

A buncha Window Lickers trying to tell each other,the best way to lick a window. FUNNY schit!

Shooting/hitting is only "difficult",for them who don't do much of it and it's never not been easy to cypher who do and who don't. 100yd paper for me,is the first stop in a series of determinations/quantifications. It is far enough to get a feel for stability,yet close enough to nip a goodly portion of atmospherics(especially important on pedestrian stuff like Rimfires),allows a nice window to see how an erector behaves and is a stepping stone in come-up confirmations. Long way of saying,I could really give a [bleep] less about the 100yd line,though I will shoot the 100yd line as a means of getting the ball rolling to engage farther.

I know how hard I can hold,thus it's easy to extrapolate what is going on at 100yd paper. If something is amiss,I can scratch me from the list and start looking at mechanics and make rapid headway in diagnosis and corrections.

These Range Queen Fascinations are a hoot and I'm glad for the heartfelt grave concerns,folks put on the schit that hardly matters most. Give me a ruck and a chunka ground and I can weigh the merits of a system in 3 [bleep] pokes,all day and everyday...then I can hand it off to a Window Licker and watch Agg sizing blow right the [bleep] up,as I go to banging something in another zipcode,while shaking my head laughing.

A platform that'll hang on to zero and fend atmospherics/inclement weather,as POA/POI shifts go,are very [bleep] easily arranged and no dumbfhuqqing Range Queen DooDaddery is gonna relate that,no matter how tall your stack of paper is. Paper Stacking Dumbfhuqqtitude from one day to the next,is the most moot of "designators".

I've herds of rifles that are gonna be somewhat disheartened,when I read this Thread to them,as they've been doing things that "couldn't be done",since their inception. Laffin'!

It is hardly "daunting" to drive a .5MOA platform and let it engage .5MOA targets atta distance,though the greatest hurdle is always gonna be Wind...not Physics. Window lickers are always soothed by stacking paper at 100,when there is no wind and would be utterly [bleep] clueless on how to engage in a Real World scenario,at say 500 or so. Funny schit!

I reckon I should start rolling more video,if only to rub noses in their Stupidity...because this schit is sooooooooooo [bleep] funny!

Just WOW.









(Addendum: for 'smith)

'smith,

I reckon you just cheered a whole schit load of my rifles right the [bleep] up,beings what they've been doin',is in fact now possible.(grin)

Here's how I look at 100yd paper,in objective overview. It's a crutch many use as a warm/fuzzy feel good measure and largely the END of their "confirmations". In this day & age,it'd be an inordinate Factory Rifle,that couldn't be made to hang a .75MOA hasty 100yd cluster,though most will do quite a bit better than that. Such things is a positive,but only an inkling of what's going on...especially when talking living handles,CM spouts and the penchant for folks to muddle bores with "maintenance".

So if I were setting someone up with a Utility Killing Rifle(and I have 100's & 100's of times),the 100yd paper would be as an initial barometer of their abilities,not so much the rifle's. This under the assumption of a NIB OEM or NIB Custom and time was spent prior,to kiss,find pressure and rock on,with more of that fodder being in tow. A trigger tweak being a given and bedding nipped,meaning mechanical integrity has been proven and it is now Show Time.

After 100yd confirmations( I often stay outta the road and let 'em shoot,critiquing form and that which transpires,etc.),the glass will zero'd and then schit is REAL. Rather than beat through a bale of 100yd paper,I tend to ask a question like:"what is the farthest you've ever shot anything?",then the next poke is at a distance which trumps that initial declaration. Again,we are talking good ammo,good glass,good mounting system,good trigger,good bedding...AKA a GOOD rifle.

So the next poke after 100yd confirmation,is the Trump Shot and it arranges alotta things and nicely. Firstly,is the Vulcan Mind [bleep] of a VERY warm/fuzzy,second is erector behavior,third is software behavior and fourth is more warm/fuzzy sprinkled copiously with FUN. That shot is sent,the target reacts and everyone wins. Hardly a big [bleep] deal to arrange and more powerful Real World Testimony than a 5 gallon bucket full of empty brass shot at the 100.

From there,merit and confidence are garnered by shaking up engagement distances and MANDATING the erector repeats. Close,far,farther,closer,yada,yada,yada,the order is moot,but the warm/fuzzy ain't. Hint. Read that again.(grin) All of this MPAJ and most typically via ruck,if only because I've never been on a Hunt without a pack or ground beneath my boots.(grin) Staying with CONSTANTS,will reliably bear fruit. Such things is oft overlooked,for whatever reason(s).

So I can get purty warm and purty fuzzy,with but a modest number of pokes at 100 and I'll recount again,the Method to the Madness. Rest assured if I am warm/fuzzy,others are freaking right the [bleep] out and that of course,is when checks get cut,the economy bolstered and I hear through the grapevine I've a knack for such thangs.(grin) Good schit sells itself. Hint.

Anywhoo...THE Warm/Fuzzy(from the other day).

Pard is in the midst of Operation FireForm with his new(to him) OEM Montucky 223,that'd been setback and punched 223AI. The impetus being every time we'd go shoot,I'd laugh and tell him "you need a GOOD little rifle,that's FUN to shoot every day". He of course buckled,like everyone else,because the premise is beyond sound. Hint.(grin)

So he listened purty good and was hell bent on forming cases and I told him no to "cheat" and go to flingin' 75A-Max in formed cases,because he would HATE [bleep] 50's at any speed,after tasting their splendor. He stuck to his guns and part way through,he swapped powders,which mandated zero confirmation and come-up confirmation...both of which is smart bidness. Hint.

Here's the initial confirmation cluster(bottom most trio) and beings he was starting over,I mentioned that the present was a veddy veddy good time,to wade through the erector's travel and see how it behaved on paper,not that he didn't have faith prior to 1K+,with the prior lot of ammo. It was simply a warm/fuzzy and easy enough to scratch offa the list of Starting At The [bleep] Start. Glass was 6x Fixed [bleep] MOA/Mil and beings it were an interim backer,he could only get 40MOA of lineal hung at 100,which is a fair start.

Between each of those shots,he swung the erector 1000MOA+,if only to see WTF,which is what the warm/fuzzy consists of. Impacting higher than the other powder's zero,which is hardly "inordinate".




Given the weather conditions(windy and a schit ton of mirage),the ammo(formed cases will always cut Agg sizing) and the Real World MPAJ ruck rest,them results were deemed sound enough to scratch more than a couple few thangs offa The List and became KNOWN quantities.

Next order was to crank another hasty cluster at 375yds(the extent of the distance that backer could be engaged) and a little salt were dumped in the wound,as a pre-warm/fuzzy for 75's...when I asked him to dope the erector and gun straight up the pipe,with no windage input on either the turret or reticle.

He done thusly and they of course was outta da' black,due to wind impetus,which wasn't unknowed prior to the first poke.(grin)



So personally,I put farrrrrrrrrrrr more store in a hasty 100yd trio with 3000MOA+ gross erector swing input in the fray,than I do a stack of mindless static paper punchin' at same,with a turret that ain't been touched...or even worse yet CDS or no [bleep] turret! Heaven forbid!!! That rifles has 80.75MOA remaining on tap in the erector from it's current zero and fullhouse 75A-Max will prolly stretch nicely,were I forced to speculate upon such thangs. Hint.

Confidence builds confidence and happiness is when you cain't make a system puke. Rest assured,I break alotta schit.(grin)

Good talk.

One of these days I'll set down with a cup of coffee and get folks minds right on wind reading/doping.

I only got 2 days left,so I better go shoot.(grin)

Boxer, somehow I knew you'd say that

With enough experience a lot can be learned from a few shots at 100 yards. You have that experience and I don't doubt what YOU can do. Others first have to learn. They don't have the luxury of you taking three pokes and handing them the rifle. Also, longer ranges are often not conveniently available so you do what you can at 100 licking windows. Better than nothing!

The other day I took a total of 5 shots at 100 yards with a new setup, which included load development (got lucky) and moved straight to 400 yard steel. Never shot another 100 yard group with the rifle and probably never will. Longer range confirmations trumps 100 yard paper. No argument from me.

But make no mistake, my "tester" rifle, which smokes 100 yard targets, is also the most accurate, consistent hit at longer ranges. Coincidence?

Thanks for both of your inputs fellas...........Boxer, if I was in Alaska, I'd definitely wouldn't mind shooting with ya some time getting instruction. Unfortunately, I'm just too far away. Currently I'm range limited to just 400yds. Nothing impressively amazing to brag about, but that is were I spend most of my time shooting from actual field positions, were I can at least keep 8-9 out of 10 in the 10 ring in all but standing position. Do wish I could get more formal unstruction though.

Good day to you sirs!!!

Normally 3 rounds for me but I do so multiple trips to the range. When I do a final check before a trip it is still usually 3 rounds, sometimes 2, sometimes 1 sometimes more than 3 depending on how much ammo I have, weather conditions, what other rifles I take to shoot and time allowed.

Did a little playing at the 100 yard line today. Grabbed the Tikka 7-08 and started flinging 120 NBT's. I figured I'd shoot a 10 shot group -- something I seldom do.

I was a tad disappointed after three, as the rifle usually clover leafs...



After 5...



Then I fired 5 more without taking a pic between shots. It's warm here today and the barrel was HOT. Here's the pic after 10...



I'd rather shoot at longer distance and with a different set up, but I just wanted to see what it would do. Maybe I should start some load development with the rifle for a true test....different bullets too...

I'll air it out next time.

John_in_MS: I use five round groups for load testing in virtually all of my Rifles and a few centerfire Varminting pistols I have.
Once load development is done for a particular arm then when subsequent "sight-in verification" groups are fired I sometimes stop at 3 round groups, but again mostly "trust" five shot groups even for this.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

SAS,

What you just observed with the ten shot group illustrates the entire point I have have been trying to make. Three shots is not a reliable predictor of where the next shot is going to go. I do tend to let the barrel cool every three or five, contour dependent, but even doing that, my five shot groups are nearly always bigger than the three and the ten shot groups are certainly always bigger than the five shot ones. After ten though, I have a fair degree of confidence in where subsequent shots are gonna go. I think Mule Deer mentioned once that any hunting rig that would put ten in an inch is definitely a keeper. I have found that to be true as well.

John

Stick,

Do me a favor and take one of you light done right rigs and shoot three 3-shot groups at the same POA at 100 yards, letting the barrel cool between groups if you wish and take a photo after each three showing how the group progress from the first three to the last, just as SAS did.

Don't be scared�

John

Five pages of mostly excellent discussion, but not one mention yet of statistical fact. In order to have a reasonably accurate standard deviation you need a certain number of occurrences. The more occurrences you have, the more meaningful your result.

In other words, each additional shot that you add to the group makes the average more meaningful, whether it is the fourth shot, or the 44th shot.

I am not a math major, but I have been told that for the first several shots, each additional shot makes a big difference in the validity of the result. But the additional benefit of each shot is less than the shot before it.

The math wizards say the magic number of occurrences is seven. Each additional shot after that adds very little additional validity to the result. But each shot up to that point has added a lot. The law of diminishing returns. I apologize that I am not using proper mathematical terms. My college statistics course was over four decades ago.

Stacking three, three-shot groups is just as valid as shooting one nine-shot group, as long as you do it honestly.

One three-shot group is meaningless. If you flip an honest coin and get heads three times in a row, are you willing to bet your paycheck that the next three flips will all be heads? Of course not.

Some SWAT snipers keep a special target in their rifle case. Every time they go to the range they put that target up and fire one and only one first round, cold-barrel shot at it. Then they take that target down and return it to their rifle case. They continue to practice on other targets.

They are required to do one, and only one shot on this target every month. The shot is witnessed and initialed. After a year they have a 12-shot group, fired in blowing snow in December, a rainy day in April, 93 degrees in July. The snipers all turn in their 12-shot target to their Chief before the annual awards dinner. The results are posted and the best shooters are recognized.

When these snipers are called on to possibly shoot a human target for real they know where their rifle is going to hit.

'64',

I'm more apt to bang LR steel or shoot cleans on clay pigeons in another zipcode,until the heat offa the spout causes enough mirage,that I gotta swap rifles.

I am not a "set schit down and let it cool" guy,but assuredly a "show the [bleep] thing no mercy" guy.

Great barrels,on great rifles,don't wake up in the morning and say "[bleep] it...I'm only gonna give a 50% effort today". This 100yd schit cracks me up,because it is so moot.

I wouldn't even know how to Pretend to be ascared,but do reserve the right to crack me up.

Light Done Right

Deer Season starts in but a coupla days,but when I get home next pass,I'll try to collect some more footage on schit that cain't be did. Been curious for a spell,how good of a 10-shot 750yd group I can shoot on steel,burning through (10) different rifles as fast as I can. Cheer up...I prolly got (10) light ones and I'm purty sure,I can do it faster than fast.

Laffin'!











'fifty,

You be sure and shoot in whatever "statistical' manner,most soothes you. No schit,did you really saw "SWAT"?!? Holy [bleep] schit,I'm crying I'm laughing soooooooooo hard.

Where do you CLUELESS [bleep] Window Lickers come from?!? Wow!

The much "lauded" and highly "heralded" Calendar Group,is some [bleep] SERIOUSLY funny [bleep] schit!

Few things as "challenging" to a rifle,as being pulled outta it's Pelican case and getting shot,once a [bleep] month. Laffin'! Then "The Chief" can eyefhuqq multiple Calendars and hand a fresh plastic Rape Whistle to the "Winner"?!? [bleep] YES,keep stupid schit like that coming,as I cain't wait to hear the next STUPID dribble of schit that escapes your trembling lips.

Double the humor for screaming "Get Some!" as they shoot,from a padded seat and concrete bench...so as to keep it really "REAL". Laffin'!

What is the average SWAT shot "distance" and longest on record again?!? Laffin'!

Jeezus [bleep],there is no end to you stupid [bleep] absolute buffoonery.

WOW.

Exactly...it's nothing but a start.

These kind of threads remind me of when I developed a super accurate 150 partition load for one of m 7mags, but upon breaking out the chronograph, I found out the load sucked........

Bob',

I rather enjoyed the notion that "inflicting" "use" to a rifle,by opening and then closing a Pelican Case upon it at least a dozen times,may get a guy a free Rape Whistle. Laffin'!

EPIC [bleep] humor,when these Do Nothing Day Dreaming Dumb [bleep] espouse their "best" "knowledge","experience" and "results".

"Lucky" bastards...I wish 100yds was that "far" and "difficult" for me,as it may add some spice to that most mundane of tasks.(grin)










'Raider,

It reminds me of your recounting,how that one time at Band Camp....you stuck a flute in your poozy.

Bless your heart,you "hard charger" you.

Laffin'!

What's the old bromide, "Opinions are like noses, everyone has one and many of them smell"

With that in mind.......

�when it comes to strictly hunting rifles, does it really matter that 5rd groups don't hold together the way 3-rd ones do?�

Some thoughts.

You�ve defined the parameter as being a �strictly hunting rifle� The rifle in question is a 308 shooting 168 gr. bullets . Chances are you�re not �hunting� prairie dogs or other vermin where you are going to be shooting multiples of shots. Rather you will most likely shoot once or twice at most.

I�d say your biggest concern would be the POI, first shot out of a cold barrel at the distances you plan to kill game.

Since you are using factory loads, (168 gr. GMM) that takes load development out of the equation.
Foul your barrel, zero at 200 then shoot at 100 and 300 yds. Wait for the barrel to cool and shoot one shot again at each distance .You could do this several times. You should be good to go for most reasonable distances.

As was mentioned above, a better test of a hunting rifle might be to set up at 100, 200 and 300 yds. on three different days and fire one shot out of a fouled barrel at each distance.

Being a short range meat hunter, that works for me.

Best,

GWB

3 is the gunwriter's friend, easier to pick out of the ten shots in the target.

I shoot 4 shot groups for load development and 3 shot groups for POI. I used to shoot 3 shot groups during development, but found many loads to suck on follow up testing. OTOH 4 shots into a tiny cluster usually repeats.

How about two 3 shot groups on different days?



Or two 3 shot groups on the same day?




How about 3 shot groups like the one on the left



That do this with almost boring regularity out to 400+ yards all day long.

One shot groups are fine provided they all go to the same POA� The easiest way for me to determine that is happening is to either stack the targets or shoot said group at the same POA until I have some confidence in the load. After that, if I'm missing steel or whatever else I'm shooting at, I know it ain't the load.

John