Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles Found the node...

My 204 has always been finicky to load for. It shot so bad when I first got it that I was thinking of a new barrel. Someone here gave me a load with Bergers that worked pretty well, but the velocity wasn't there. I decided to give load development another whirl. Here is what a mere .1 grain difference did in this gun. (gun has always been very sensitive to changes in charge weight.)

Shot this awful five shot group at 100yds:



Increased charge .1 grain and shot this 3-shot group:



I was surprised when I walked up to the target to see that bughole, so I walked back to the bench, waited 15 minutes and shot two more into the same group.



Looks like I finally found the sweet spot! I cannot explain why this gun is so sensitive to charge differences, but it is.

From past experiences with different loads from very accurate rifles, I would suggest you shoot a few more groups before being too happy. I have had groups almost in one hole, and the next time out it shot almost an inch group. I have some 20 caliber bullets in 34 grain from Nosler, that occasionally shoot under .250, but was not consistent with a 20 TAC or my 204. I hope your results are as indicated in your post.

Yeah, I am taking it back out this weekend to confirm. This gun has always done odd things during load development. Not only do group sizes change, but the group locations move a lot across the target, more so than any other gun I have owned. I believe it is due to the sporter weight 24" barrel being whippy.

I'd have to go another few tenths up to test robustness, if pressure allowed.

A node that requires the charge to be gnat's ass right on isn't much of a node.

That is the weird think about this gun. Shot ok at 26.6, crappy at 26.8, even crapper at 27, then zing...groups went back the other direction at 27.1. No pressure signs, and I like shooting so back next weekend to comfirm. I need to rezero anyway as this group wandered quite a bit from my original zero.

What are the details on the rifle?

Just wondering, as I've had four .204's, three with sporter-weight 24's, and all have been very easy to load for, without such sensitivity.

This started as a M700 ADL. Converted to BDL and sits in a bedded Medalist stock. Rifle Basix trigger, Kahles Helia 4-12.

This gun has been finicky since days one, with multiple stocks and optics.

Tried 32gr Sierra, 32 Noslers, 32 Hornadys and 40 Noslers in the past with horrible results. The only thing it shoots is 35gr Bergers over Benchmark. I even tried factory Hornady ammo once as a test. No good.

I did notice that one lug isn't making good contact, but that is about all I can find wrong with this gun.

My 204 is a 700 that has been the biggest pain in the arse. I finally had to put over 5 lbs of pressure on the barrel after changing to a laminated stock. It would finally group. I can't verify this, but have read the reason for pressure to compensate for poor thread contact. I have had more trouble with Winchester brass and have put mine in the back of the safe.

I toyed with rebarreling, but this group makes me rethink things. Going to confirm this weekend. That being said, it has always been good enough for a coyote gun at reasonable ranges, but pretty poor as far as "varmint" rifles go.

You should try the 39 BKs and load for the throat.
Those were the only thing I could get a factory new M77 VTGT 204 to shoot one M O Varmint, because those were the only bullets with a long-enough shank to touch metal on both ends.

Then I had a new barrel (Ruger replaced it) and that one did the same. Then I had Greg Tannell do a 230 neck short throat and could shoot 32 BKs, 39 BKs and Berg 35s -- but it was still super brass sensitive, wild flyers with the tiniest defect in case wall thickness.

Dang! I've had a pretty easy time getting my .204 sporters (a Savage, Ruger Mark II and Rem. 700) to shoot with a variety of loads. Usually use TAC but Benchmark and others have done well too. In all three rifles 32's and 40's (and usually 26's and 35's) all have shot close enough to the same POI at 100 to use them interchangeably. In my experience it's an extremely easy round to get to shoot, and not sensitive to different bullets or slight differences in powder charges. In fact the same charges of TAC have worked in all three.

I'd be looking at the rifle rather than dinking around with tenth-grain changes in powder charges.

My experience exactly�...

Did you use the ADL magazine box for the conversion? The ADL boxes are taller than the BDL. You may have everything tight, but it would still allow your barreled action to move in the stock. Open your hinged floor plate and make sure your magazine box will move/wiggle with your action screws tight. If it wont' move I think that could be your problem. I had it happen to me.

Could very well be.

Could also be several other rifle problems, like barrel threads too loose in the action, a scope-base screw making contact with the barrel threads, the front action screw touching the bottom bolt lug, etc. etc.

But I sure wouldn't waste any more powder, bullets, primers and brass looking for the magic load.

Screw hitting the lug gets my vote.

Swapped out mag box during conversion. It has worn three different stocks, the current one was bedded and fit by Kampfeld.

It has also worn several scope and base combos. The lack of contact on one bolt lug seems to be suspect though.

Contact percentage?

I had a little dinky short barreled SS Ruger Mk 2 that I used as a coyote truck gun in .204. I picked a random book load of H-4895 (28 gr.) 32g V Max and Rem 71/2 primers and it got an honest to god 4050 fps over the chrony out of that short factory barrel and shot under 1/2 inch, hot,cold clean, dirty you name it. I was impressed at the way it killed dogs also, not the horsepower of my Swift but just as flat and accurate.-Muddy

Me...

Benchmark and 35 Berger gave you crap velocity?

Well, some cartridges are female, some rifles are female, but when BOTH are --

Yep. I can never remember your handle since you changed it from Gmoney! haha

Yeah, I was hovering around 3700fps...this gun has a long throat though, so who knows.

That's odd - That load gives (or gave) me 3,900+...

Shot it this weekend, now the 26.6 load is shooting better than the 27.1. Certainly minute of coyote, but odd none the less.

I think a 22-204 in an 8 twist would be a sweet little round. Got me thinking...

Try the 40 Berger's?

I think its node is Page 1 on the Classifieds.



Travis

Or a good gunsmith who can determine what's wrong with the rifle.

Some .204 Rugers don't shoot with the "standard" 1:12" barrel, especially if the twist drifted off during rifling to something slower. They really come alive with lead free bullets:

Barnes 26 grain Varmint Grenade - good for 1:12" twists but shoot astounding well in anything faster. I use a 1:12", 1:9" or 1:8.5" twist.

Nosler's 20 Caliber BT Lead Free 32 grain bullet shoots well in the 1:9" twist or faster, with the same load as the above Varmint Grenade - 25.2 grains of Reloader 10x at 4,089 to 4,110 fps depending on the barrel (I use 24" barrels exclusively).

The little Hornady 20 Caliber 24 grain NTX is astounding in 1:9" twists and shoots superbly in 1:12" twists (at least in my Shilen barrel).

Berger's discontinued .204 50 grain and current 55 grain HPBT will shoot only in the 1:8.5 or faster twists over Varget and maintains groups under an inch at 100 yards. These are not lead free, but should smack larger varmint with authority.

Why lead free? Simply stated, they are more accurate than any lead core jacketed bullet and capable of begin driven at the highest velocities without coming apart. The cores are a compressed metallic copper powder that is a solid similar to stick chalk, they do not soften under the friction of being driven down the barrel, and simply explode when hitting varmints. In fact the 6mm Varmint Grenade in my .243 WSSM causes ground squirrels full of wet alfalfa to vanish completely.

As to powders, I have found two for use with under 35 grain bullets: Reloader 10x and Accurate LT-32.

Here are some results:



The above group was preliminary load development back in 2009. A ten shot group with a velocity of 4,089 fps. The two fliers are my fault. Note that the red diamonds are .5" on a side, and that the group with flyers is still going to smack a squirrel into rodent heaven. This is my standard varmint load and shoots the same in all barrels, Shilen 1:12', Pac-Nor 1:8.5 and Hart 1:9".



Above is a 10 shot group from a custom built Colt AR-15 lower with a Fulton Armory Side Cocking upper. I decided to build it as a bolt action with no gas port in the custom 24" Hart SS barrel. It has since been switched to an Anderson lower with an AR-15 Gold Trigger and Magpul PRS stock. I would expect similar results from a semi-auto configuration. The blow-its are due to my flinching when the guy next to me fired his .338 Lapua just as I was touching off - the hot blast going by lifted my cowboy hat!

Below is my load data work up for .204 Ruger with AAC LT-32 powder. Note that 25.5 grains is max in my barrels with the 26 grain Varmint Grenade or Hornady 24 grain NTX. I used the Wolf 223 small rifle primer, but the Remington 7-1/2BR or Winchester SRP would substitute. This data is for information only and is safe only in my rifles, use at your own risk.



Primers have a dramatic effect on accuracy, so I try several before loading in lots of 1k or greater.

There is no way in hell dogcatcher's rifle is in need of load development.




Travis

An 11 twist pac-nor will fix it

FACT. Unless load development is supposed to last 20 years of trial and constant error.

I'm open to offers...

Remington BDL blued matte.
Medalist stock bedded by Kampfeld.
Rifle Basix trigger
Kampfeld bolt knob.

11-shot group. 26.6 grs Benchmark + 35gr Berger.

The word is "FRUSTRATED" and I feel your pain. Been working with my Varmint model 527 CZ 223. It does shoot 1" groups but I think it should shoot smaller groups. Accept the results or make a deposit on a new barrel. I have a PacNor barreled 223 that shoots itty bitty groups and it has ruined me completely as the CZ now has no appeal.

Kind of tired of throwing dice at guns. I just need a couple real good guns, and i could sell the rest. I have a 223AI that is just a factory ruger recut and it shoots lights out. Not sure why I kept buying more varmint guns after that one.

Yes. That would annoy me as well.





Travis

I think some of these hot rounds are tough to shoot accurately. That is just my personal experience.

I have had the same issues with a few newer Remington's. Everyone of them had the same issue, the firing pin spring dragging on the inside of the bolt. Replaced them all with the PTG 20% stronger spring and firing pin. I think the firing pin is made by GreTan. Groups shrink like Magic, no variation in firing pin speed. I bought a 5R 308 wouldn't shoot better than 1.25" at 100 yards, swapped out firing pin assembly and " BAM " one hole groups.
TEXMAG

Tex, interesting conclusion and certainly worth a try.

Thanks.

I'm thinking this gun might become a 22-something with an 8 twist.