Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Does .45 colt accuracy drop off in a 454 Casull chamber?

Is it really worth it to get an extra .45 Colt cylinder? Does it improve accuracy? Cut down on leading in the cylinder? Just dotting Is and crossing Ts?

IMHO worth it, and shoot the correct brass in the correct cylinder. FA mdl 83's are built to very tight tollerances, and it doesn't take much leading or fouling to make extracting 454 brass from the cylinder tough.

As far as accuracy, due to the previously mentioned dimensions I would be surprised if you had trouble get top notch accuracy out of a 454 using 45 colt brass.

That said, it is well worth working up loads to see what is most accurate in your gun. A good revolver is capable of moa accuracy, but only with worked up loads. I've seen 1/2 gr more or 1/2 gr less powder than the accuracy load for a good revolver double the size of the group.

Personally I'd get it in .45 Colt and just skip the .454. When you load a round with the bullet all the way out to the end of the cylinder, you have just as much case capacity as a .454, so you can essentially duplicate the ballistics without having to buy that expensive brass.

If I ever wanted anything more powerful than a 5 shot .45 Colt, I'd go bigger, not faster. .475 Linebaugh would be my next step, and you can shoot .480 Ruger in a .475 for lighter loads.

Agree with all written completely.

I have not seen much of a drop in accuracy when dropping colts in my freedoms. I have owned extra cylinders in my freedoms and I feel its not needed. When you shoot colts, clean well before shooting 454's. Its really that simple. Internet claims of bad things happening in the freedoms when using 45 colts are a myth unless you are not cleaning in between. While I do really enjoy my 454's I do agree that if you are looking for just power go with the 475 for more size. If you are looking for flat shooting, go with the 454. I have owned many of both and there is nothing I will face that a 45 colt or 454 wont handle.

[quote=GunGeek]Personally I'd get it in .45 Colt and just skip the .454. When you load a round with the bullet all the way out to the end of the cylinder, you have just as much case capacity as a .454, so you can essentially duplicate the ballistics without having to buy that expensive brass.

I have a couple of problems with this.

OAL-- When loading most bullets in a 45 Colt case to 454 OAL you will not be crimping in the cannelure of that bullet. Not a good thing to do in a revolver with heavy recoil. It is okay in the T/C single shot except for not having equal bullet pull that a good roll crimp affords using slow burning powders.

Some 45 Colt brass can handle high pressures up to normal magnum pressures, but not at 454 pressures. 45 Colt brass has much thinner sidewalls and web section than 454 or 44 mag brass as a comparison.

I have never seen any loading data for the 45 Colt that equals the 454 as far as pressures go. The "Ruger/TC Loads" in the manuals do not equal the 454 pressures. For good reason.

Not that it makes any difference, but FA in their owners manual for the Model 83 states that they do not recommend shooting 45 Colt in the 454 cylinder. They have their reasons. A dirty cylinder from 38 special/.357 mag and 44 special/44mag is not the same as 45 Colt/454. The 454 SAAMI pressures are higher than .357 and 44 mag. Could pose a problem shooting a 454 in a dirty cylinder left over from shooting the 45 Colt "for some people". Like gunchamp said, keep it clean.

Not in my experience.





No need for a 45 Colt cylinder IME and opinion. I shoot mostly 45 colts in my 454s.

Quite frankly, in a 5-shot revolver, the .45 Colt can be loaded to near .454 pressures. That said, I can see no reason to load it that hot. Even the ammo manufacturers aren't loading it any longer to its SAAMI max (65,000 psi). The .454 buys you some more range, but long range isn't my objective while handgun hunting.

If one casts then the crimp groove can be located for the 45 Colt brass. If you followed Ross Sygfried when he was writing about handguns he routinely loaded federal 45 Colt brass to 454 levels without problems.

Agree 100%. I keep my 454 loads to pushing a 335 cp to 1350ish. Don't need any more than that for what I'm doing.

It is amazing what can be done in a 5 shot colt. I've seen loads that would darn near equal 454 velocity.

The gun can take it. The brass is the weak link.

Years ago when people started loading the 45 Colt hot for the Blackhawks, they did discover that Fed brass was heavier and had good luck with it. Win brass was weaker. Rem brass was the weakest. Case life was shorter than a typical 44 mag case on all the brands. Starline brass for the 45 Colt is heat treated and has a different grain structure just for this reason of people loading it at the higher levels. Agreed on not loading it to 65K psi.

Just for giggles-has anyone seen any load data for the 45 Colt at full 454 levels.

I can only speak from my own experiences which may not shed any light for your situation. I have a Smith & Wesson 460XVR revolver and if you don't know. It's chambered for the .460 Magnum as well as being able to shoot .45LC and .454 Casull. I was beyond shocked at the great accuracy of .45LC and .454s in this gun. Extremely accurate in every instance. I agree with Kevin though, I would only load up LCs as .454 brass is ridiculous. I have even found .460 brass much cheaper

Maybe it is just me, but I never understood why someone would carry a 5 pound gun around to shoot the 45 LC. I do have a 8 3/8" S&W 500. I do not shoot drastically reduced loads in it. The most accurate loads are near max though.

The last .460 XVR I tested wouldn't shoot anything but .460 ammo accurately. I also found the size and noise off-putting. But that's just me.

I think you have mentioned that before on here. Guess it was the gun, cause mine shoots cowboy loads and hard hitting loads in 45LC as accurate as I need them to be. The 460 is a fireball and sounds like a cannon going off, but it is a hoot to shoot and will drop any animal on this continent and most on others

THIS!!

The issue isn't the brass, it's the chamber. If the chamber is cut right, a .45 Colt will do anything a .454 will do. Federal and Starline .45 Colt brass is as good as cartridge brass gets; period.

That hasn't been my observation. Again, it all comes down to how generous the chamber is. For some reason on production .45 Colts (mostly older ones) chambers are extremely generous, far more generous than a .44 or .41 mag...I'm sure JWP or Whitworth may have an answer for why that is, but it is.

All else being equal, Federal or Starline .45 Colt brass will do anything that pretty much any other cartridge can do, and won't wear out any faster...again, all else being equal.

I've never used a .45 Colt cylinder in my Casulls- instead, if I want to shoot .45 Colt-level loads, I simply download .454 cases to do so. FA publishes a whole list of suitable powders, bullets, etc. to do this.
In fact, nearly all the shooting I do nowdays with .454 Casull is with downloaded .454 cases. Accuracy is just fine, and those cases will last forever at reduced pressure levels. Just don't try using powders like H110 or W296 to do so- they are designed to perform at near max velocity and pressure levels, and reducing loads with these powders can result in misfires.

It's advanced loading, takes a good deal of common sense. But in general, you can use the .454 data on the low end as a starting point. It's all about case capacity and bullet seating depth. With any given load the .45 Colt case will be much fuller than the .454, so while the powder charge is nearly the same, where you seat the bullet is the critical factor when over-loading a .45 Colt in a 5 shot revolver. But personally, I'd never bother doing it...

IMO, for any given bullet weight, once you get over 1,200fps (that's my personal "magic" number in revolvers) then you're just extending range. For ME 1,200fps is my magic number because at that velocity I can accurately place a bullet all the way out to 100 yards (although I've never shot GAME at that distance). For a lot of other guys their magic velocity is 1,300 or 1,400 fps; whatever works for you.

Even with the extra velocity flattening trajectory, hitting beyond that range for me becomes more and more problematic mostly because of recoil...I don't enjoy shooting .454's at all. So like Whitworth said, although you can load the same as a .454, it's just not necessary. And I find the .454 cartridge basically not necessary; never have liked it.

Any WFN bullet over 300 grain at 1,200fps at any range that I would be willing to shoot at game, will just plain plow through FEET of flesh and bone. Such a .45 Colt load will kill anything you properly shoot. If I were going up against something that can fight back, then I'd go with a bigger bullet, not more velocity.

Just my opinion...JWP and Whitworth are the experienced handgun big game hunters. The largest thing I've ever killed with a handgun is an 1,800 pissed off bull that was tearing up barn and corral (which was done with a standard pressure .45 Colt)...but that was done from a safe position and I wasn't hunting. Besides that, the biggest thing I ever killed with a handgun was a 340lb black bear with a .44 mag.

If you're looking to hunt very large game with a handgun, I'd first recommend buying Whitworth's book, then listen to what he and JWP has to say...as far as I'm concerned, they're are the EXPERTS on the subject round these parts.

I have opinions based on limited field experience, and perhaps a lot of book education. They have experience on a lot of book knowledge and a LOT of field experience.

45 Colt chambers, particularly the old ones are larger because of the historical use of cast bullets primarily. Not too much for the FA's I have seen.

We are talking about working the brass over several resizing's. You take a case that was designed for very low pressures. Look at the schematics of 45 Long Colt and compare those to the magnum cases. Big difference in case and web thickness.Then you fire it in loose chambers. Then you resize. Over and over. Hot loads are one thing, but 454 loads are much hotter. (you were talking about equal performance). I load conservative, on my magnum cases, most of the time it is a failure of the case mouth that occurs first with using minimum crimp practices. With the 45 Colt you get internal stress cracks right above the web section first, loading at magnum pressures. As little as 2-3 reloads sometimes. Depending on the gun.* If you have not experienced this, you have not done it. Period.

Look at any reputable loading manual, you will see the warnings.

45 Colt at magnum pressures is one thing. At 454 pressures is a whole different ball game. You wanted equal performance.

Crimping in a lubrication groove is done. Matching the correct bullet to do that is the key. This limits your options. Eliminates the use of Jacketed bullets also. Why not use the correct case? A safer case. If you have spent the money on a nice FA revolver, surely buying 454 brass is not an issue. THEY WILL LAST LONGER!

Be safe my friend.


* There is one advantage to using a good ultrasonic cleaner. You can see these stress points much easier.

Under those circumstances you're correct. In a tight/correctly cut .45 Colt chamber, the brass does just fine. In such a chamber I've found that regardless of .45 Colt or .454 primer pockets will usually open up before you wear out the brass walls.

Yea, that is where Starline shines. Since they do not make mass quantities for mfg of loaded ammo and they know that their brass is sold for a component, weather by individuals or custom/semi-custom mfg and most likely will be reloaded over and over they do some special things. Denser grain structure and heat treatment on the "difficult" cases. That helps a bunch in keeping the primer pockets true.

The crap about .45Colt cases being weak is just that, crap.

Starline DOES produce brass for major ammunition manufacturers.

Weaker- dumba$$

Yeah, in a strong gun with good brass, you can crank out some really powerful .45 Colt loads, pretty close to .454.

I don't have much use for more power than that.

DF

+1

another +1. Its amazing how many times I still read on the internet that 45 colt brass is weaker. Its been a very long time since that was the case. For some reason people keep repeating this crap over and over again.

Must've struck a nerve.

I'll just say it one more time. Weak for 454 pressures. Not as safe as 454 brass at 454 pressures. Read and understand if you can. 45 Colt is good for Magnum pressures-IE 40K psi. Not good for repeated loading at 454 pressures. Can not make it any more clear. This is not general internet bull$h!t. Read the warning or not.

Since firing just 3 heavy .454 Casul loads I have developed a flinch. I would get the .45 Colt cylinder and perhaps never use the other. Normal .45 Colt loads are a pleasure to shoot from a frontier style revolver. And I love the Freedom Arms version. Also Colt SAA.

If I need more power than a full house .45 Colt, I'll grab a long gun...

DF

In a properly built 5 shot 45 colt, brass is not an issue at the higher end of the pressure spectrum. I have seen it work time and again myself.

Yea, but not at 65K psi.

Other than the S&W's, I have a Mod 83,four Colt SAA's, and two Blackhawk's in 45 Long Colt and a Win rifle. I have loaded everything from 12K to 40K psi. Never had a case fail. Other than working the neck by crimping, I get good number of reloads before they go to the recycle bin. But I get less case life at the 40K loads for sure. That is expected. We all agree on that. It's the 65K thing I do not like.

454 ammo isn't even loaded to 65k anymore. Loading to 50k in a 5 shot revolver is no problem with the 45 colt. I think we agree just were a little apart on the details is all.

The .460 S&W is loaded around 60K from what I understand. I saw a photo of a guy with the end of his thumb missing. Seems he got that thumb located too far forward with a two hand hold. The tip of his thumb was at the cylinder/barrel gap and the hot gases, just like a plasma torch, took it off clean as a knife.

I don't want a 60K psi revolver, don't own one, not in the market for one...

IMHO,

DF

Yep. I am fortunate to have my own place to shoot anytime I want out my backdoor. That has not always been the case. Nowadays, you go to some of the gun ranges and see some of the idiots out there. Talk to them. Wow-- scary. I blame the internet for that. If a fellow wants to Google something, he can wind up here. If he does not read the whole thread, it could be bad. I have always been a conservative hand loader. If I want more power, I pick another gun. The only thing I use the 500 S&W for is to let friends shoot it for kicks. My wife and kids thought it would be cool to buy me a 50 cal for my 50th birthday. It really is worthless to me. But I won't sell it.

My son shot that 500 S&W off of a sandbag made with shot bag canvas. Had the gun too far forward. You know the rest.

Yeah, I can picture that...

DF

A little off subject. But I have had sticky cases on the 327 Federal Magnum at 40K psi in the Ruger. The chambers were smooth as a baby's butt. Not bad,but it is a different shooting those higher pressure rounds in a revolver.

I here you. I know longer have an interest in pushing things to the max. Its really not needed. When I figured out how to kill things and realized I didnt need 2000fps out of a revolver to make animals plop over things got a bit more fun. My go to 454 load is pushing a 335 cp to 1350ish which is my max load. The gun will go much higher but there really is no point other than gaining distance. To me that defeats the purpose of handgun hunting anyway. I keep my shots within 50 yds and load my guns accordingly.

If you read the article of Ross Seyfried taking the Cape buffalo with a 5 1/2" barreled revolver chambered in 45 Colt . Roses loaded a 355 grain hard cast loaded to a chronographed 1495 fps. According to John Linebaugh that was a 60,00 psi load. Ross told me personally that he always used 45 Colt brass for his heavy loads and never experience in problems in doing so.
Newly manufactured 45 Colt brass in a 5 shot revolver will work just fine in my experience as well

You like pushing buttons don't you.


Load those 60K loads in those 45 Colt cases 8 to 10 times.

We were talking about saving money were we not?

Don't know why we are harping on this, but there is nothing inherently weak about new .45 Colt brass. What is the issue?

I know, that's what I've been trying to figure out.

My best guess is some here have not spent time with the 45 colt as of late.

Nope, just stating what Seyfried wrote and my experience as well. I've had 44 mag cases with book loads that would not go 8 to 10 reloads because of case neck splitting.

Did not say this.^^^^

Simply put. AGAIN. Way back in this discussion, we were talking about using 45 Colt cases to save money because 454 brass was too expensive. {AND} getting 454 performance out of those cases. Saving money requires multiple loading in your brass.

All I am saying,(trying to say) is 45 Colt cases is not as good as 454 cases when trying to do that.

45 Colt cases at "plinking" levels--no problem.

45 Colt cases at "magnum levels"(IE:44 mag levels) -- no problem.

45 Colt cases at "454 Levels", Multiple times is riskier. Better to use 454 Brass than 45 Colt cases.

That is all I am trying to say. Simple as that. Nothing more.



It should not be this hard to get this point across here.

I am not the one "harping". Just trying to get a simple point across. I have explained it from many angles. Some people read and comprehend and some don't.

Review for the 19 year old 2nd graders:
If you are going to load at 454 pressures multiple times, spend the money on 454 brass. Save your 45 Colt brass for magnum loads and lower loads.


45 Colt brass IS NOT WEAK. Just not as strong as 454 Brass.

Jesus Crist!

Above post sums it up well. It's amazing how electronic communication, in this case, in the form of posts, can get so misconstrued/misinterpreted. I struggle with this constantly conversing with clients in work-related emails.

...and to stir the pot, what you REALLY need is to just buy .460 S&W Mag brass and cut it down to either .45 Colt or .454 Casull length cases. That will save tons of money!

-John

Based on what evidence? It is my understanding, at least in the case of Starline brass, that the only differences between the .454 and .45 Colt cases are the length and the primer pocket. I am not trying to be combative here, but you are making definitive statements and I would like to know what evidence you have to back that up. That's all.

Look at the schematics of both cases. I am computer illiterate, or I would give you a link. Go to ANSI's SAAMI listings. Or some of the newer load manuals. The case walls are thicker and the web section is larger in the 454 case.

One thing of note. I have had more case stretch in my 45 Colt cases (magnum levels) in the 1894 than any of the revolvers. My revolvers vary somewhat, but in minor way.

I keep good notes for all my loads. I shoot the same cases in the same guns. I am pretty OCD when it come to loading. The FA does very well in low case stretch(tight tolerances). The Colts do too, but they are loaded much milder. I go by my notes, not what is posted on the Webbnet.

You know we are talking about minor differences here. But at very high pressures over and over there is a possibility of a ruptured case. The 454 cases were designed from the beginning for these pressures.

Lever guns, like Marlin and Winchester, where rounds are fed from a riser or elevator, entering the chamber at a slight angle, the chamber has to be set up to allow for that. Those chambers can never be as tight as a custom 5 shot revolver cylinder.

So, you're going to get more stretch with those cases than with cases used in a tight, custom chambered six gun..

DF

True. Very true.

Add to that there is minor "spring" in the bolt since it locks up in the rear of the bolt. The '86 and '71's are much heavier bolt/ receiver in those areas. And others.

Yeah, and the '92 is a heap stronger design than the Marlin equivalent. JMB designed some tough guns.

Ever see a .454 Marlin?

DF

I had a Redhawk rechambered from .44 Magnum to 45 Colt minimum specefications by Clements. I haven't seen a great improvement in accuracy but the expected improvement in case life was nice. A bit more "free" velocity with the same loads too. I have only one complaint, my "standard" Clement's conversion brass now has to be watched as it given special status and not fired in my other .45 Colts. Please don't tell my how many brass I could have thrown away for the price of the conversion. I want a .45 Colt Super Redhawk so this discussion of the 454 Casull chambered gun using 45 Colt brass is a great "project" starting place.

Did you get Dave to line bore it? That seems to enhance accuracy.

My line bored three screw SBH, .44 mag to .45 Colt, is a tack driver with Shilen barrel and trigger job.

DF